It's obvious they're finally taking action on this due to all the crimes committed and fatalities caused by pistols with braces. Er, wait...
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ATF At It Again! Keep Your Eyes & Ears Open!
- Thread starter Vamike9
- Start date
People like you try and legitimize these ongoing violations..
You sound just like those young ones saying “the constitution is outdated and needs to be re written”.
And FYI if I’m doing 120 down the road I Will have enough of a reason to not stop and if they do affect a stop at that time I seriously doubt I’ll have the opportunity to say anything.
Furthermore your argument and the desire to see it on film establishes you are already well aware of many of the possible outcomes and possibly even from personal experiences know how many of them would be violating my rights.
A smartass still has constitutional rights and cops are still guilty of violating when they do.
As someone stated earlier the Supreme Court has even found that state officials can be held personally liable for depriving ones rights.
I’m not giving another inch.
I wonder how much longer we the people will allow this crap before all guns are converted to full auto and those old war trophies from ww2, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, start seeing daylight. Since there illegal anyways and true Americans have been outlawed
You're either for us or against us. There's no middle ground.
Here’s me or any other of the hundreds of millions of peaceful Americans minding our own business, practicing our natural rights of self-preservation, and protecting our families graphed-out in reference to criminal behavior:
Obtain/make/maintain/train with arms_______work in honest profession_____treat neighbors kindly_____pass on arms to posterity before we graduate from this life.
Here’s a statist wannabe dictator scumbag's life:
Work in local LE____puts in for Federal LE____can’t get into FBI/DEA/USSS/US Marshals____ opening found in BATFE!____passes Special Agent exam____goes through FLET____assigned to ATF regional office____shoots your puppy____falsifies testimony to justify SWAT raid on a church_____shuts down an FFL____cites another FFL for not filing 4473s in alphabetical order______writes an opinion letter on some type of firearm with no published standards_____sucks the heel of their ASAIC when whistleblowers file sexual assault complaints_____gets promoted for prosecuting innocent people______moves closer to ASAIC office staff position______sells an FN Five7 pistol to a cartel straw buyer_____pistol shows up at multiple homicide murder scene in Mexico_____orders ATF field agents to assist straw-buyers to obtain thousands of firearms for murder cartels____takes paid leave and gets 6-figure job with JP Morgan.
Each one of those links is just the tip of the iceberg. The Clean Up ATF links are ATF personnel documenting corruption and incompetence within the ATF.
We should definitely be looking at those sketchy citizens and the types of furniture they mount to their firearms. They seem...I dunno, dangerous.
Obtain/make/maintain/train with arms_______work in honest profession_____treat neighbors kindly_____pass on arms to posterity before we graduate from this life.
Here’s a statist wannabe dictator scumbag's life:
Work in local LE____puts in for Federal LE____can’t get into FBI/DEA/USSS/US Marshals____ opening found in BATFE!____passes Special Agent exam____goes through FLET____assigned to ATF regional office____shoots your puppy____falsifies testimony to justify SWAT raid on a church_____shuts down an FFL____cites another FFL for not filing 4473s in alphabetical order______writes an opinion letter on some type of firearm with no published standards_____sucks the heel of their ASAIC when whistleblowers file sexual assault complaints_____gets promoted for prosecuting innocent people______moves closer to ASAIC office staff position______sells an FN Five7 pistol to a cartel straw buyer_____pistol shows up at multiple homicide murder scene in Mexico_____orders ATF field agents to assist straw-buyers to obtain thousands of firearms for murder cartels____takes paid leave and gets 6-figure job with JP Morgan.
Each one of those links is just the tip of the iceberg. The Clean Up ATF links are ATF personnel documenting corruption and incompetence within the ATF.
We should definitely be looking at those sketchy citizens and the types of furniture they mount to their firearms. They seem...I dunno, dangerous.
Funny thing is, nobody even knows why suppressors were placed on the unconstitutional NFA list, while some of the most draconian nanny states who don’t even permit handguns don’t give a rip about people owning them.
Sell components for non-firearms that can’t be made into firearms? Jack boots raid your shop.
There’s only 2,691 Special Agents across the whole Nation.
Sell components for non-firearms that can’t be made into firearms? Jack boots raid your shop.
There’s only 2,691 Special Agents across the whole Nation.
that’s why they’ll use local pd to “assist” them. The very ones that everyone here loves.
Three local PDs told me that they’d tell the ATF to pound sand! Big gun guys around me! Has anyone responded to the ATF in their open comment session?
Take your head out of the sand dude. They will be fired for not following orders. Not to mention the other 700,000 or so that won’t even question it. When it comes to gun rights cops are not your friends. honestly as a gun owner, I’d recommend other gun owners to distance yourself from police officers. You do not need them for protection. They offer no service to you. They do not have your best interest in mind on a whole. every police officer in America already enforces gun control knowingly. As @LRRPF52 said we are so used to asking permission in life, we don’t even think twice about it.
I don't know where you live, but it would seem that many police departments would be happy to assist the ATF. Many local police departments can't wait to use their new Red Flag laws to get the law abiding gun owners into court to prove how dangerous they are.
Sadly, this is true. Police Officers went to public school like the other 92% of the population in their day (thankfully that’s dropping).
They’ve never read any of the SCOTUS case law on natural rights. They are tasked with enforcing local codes and ordinances, State law, and Federal law when they have reasonable suspicion or probably cause that one of those codes have been violated. This is after roughly 240 years of our laws being slowly eroded well away from the Constitution.
They are also used to dealing with the worst of society as a rule, and tend to default to methods of interface with that demographic (prostitutes, homeless, DV, assault, battery, traffic violations, etc.). Very rarely do they see smoke and no fire, so if they have their supervisors telling them they’re going on an inter-agency warrant service, they aren’t going to raise their hands in the briefing room and say, “Uh, is there any chance we’re violating someone’s inalienable rights on this? Just asking for a friend."
However, there is hope.....
ATF Agent Accuses Columbus Police Officers of Excessive Force
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I’ve looked all over for an open letter from them and can’t find one. The website is joke. Open letters are not even in chronological order that I can tell. Has anything official from the ATF been put out regarding braces? We’re talking about an agency that takes 8-15 months to run a background check for a form4 and minimum 30-200 days for a form1. If you shoulder a brace when protecting your dog from the ATF, is it a crime? Asking for a friend.
Long time lurker, first time poster. Im not entirely sure I meet the requirements to post in the pit, so grain of salt. As a local LEO for a rather small agency, most of the above posters are unfortunately correct from what i've seen. Myself, and agency, have told the ATF to kick rocks on multiple occasions, but cops talk and I've been disappointed by brethren before.
What would you and/or your brethren do if the Chief tells you to help the ATF or your fired?
Still figuring out the quote system. I would be fired. I am confident that the others would do the same. I am equally confident that I would not receive that order at my department. Officers that don't memorize the bill of rights dont make it through field training here and the oath to uphold the constitution is taken seriously. An opinion of one at a single department though.
Well that may be true for your department but I don’t trust any cops. That includes you.
One thing to note is that the ATF says they will waive the tax. IMHO they don’t have that authority as congress established the NFA tax.
If the ATF thinks they have the authority to waive the tax what makes them think that they don’t have the authority to increase the tax?
If the ATF thinks they have the authority to waive the tax what makes them think that they don’t have the authority to increase the tax?
And I wish I could tell you that you were wrong to feel that way, but I can't. I don't trust other cops either, specifically because in rural areas like mine the state police tend to be around in numbers. You never know what they will do, I just assume it will be wrong
You’re missing the point. They don’t speak for the 700,000 police officers that are in 17000+ departments. And what’s that chief going to say when his state police overlords replace him for not following their orders. Your 5-10 people circle of Friends don’t mean shit in the grand scheme of gun control. Just like 5-10 Americans don’t mean shit. We have to stick together.
your friends already enforce gun control. Whether they have a dick Measuring contest with the atf is irrelevant.
edit: to think the head of a single police department doesn’t answer to anyone is just ignorant. City>county>state>federal. The top cop federally is APPOINTED, he only answers to president, and we all know how that’s going no matter who’s in the White House.
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What will end up being rather humorous is whether a court has jurisdiction over an opinion voiced by a non legislative agency. I'm sure they will try. But if the FDA decided beef was illegal, it might cause some legislative issues.
If I bought something the government said was legal, and then they try to say, after the fact, that it is now illegal, is there not a legal problem for the government?
If I bought something the government said was legal, and then they try to say, after the fact, that it is now illegal, is there not a legal problem for the government?
Thanks for posting and being open about who you are. I’d love to know how many atf members here as members and how many are assigned. Then there’s the fbi spying on our own president and still operating as if they are untouchable. I’ve known a handful of decent Leo in my short life but must admit it’s getting real close to the time where if I don’t know you personally or you haven’t quit the force then your a enemy of the constitution and no longer protected. This will happen just as fast or slow as these unconstitutional raids are happening.
Near as I can tell bout the pit.. if your not banned your able to post till your banned. Most surefire way to get banned, talk about a certain protected group. One your in.. kinda curious what they’d do if you started badmouthing your own?
I would be curious about the above as well. I only personally know one ATF agent, and we have not talked since he "ascended" to federal law enforcement. I think most people are in the same boat right now about not trusting an leo they dont know, and i dont blame them or take it personally. As far as badmouthing our own, leo's in my experience are hyper critical of other leo's. But thats just me.
Waiving the tax is likely a mechanism to reduce the number of available avenues to push back against the registration. But even if they had decided to charge the normal $200 for a tax stamp, it'd likely be deemed legal per established precident:
United States v. White, No. 13-0440-01-CR-W-SRB | Casetext Search + Citator
Read United States v. White, No. 13-0440-01-CR-W-SRB, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database
casetext.com
United States v. Lim, 444 F.3d 910 | Casetext Search + Citator
Read United States v. Lim, 444 F.3d 910, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database
casetext.com
Can't we just get another lawyer to argue whether it's a tax or the government mandating payment? When the definition of "IS" is questioned is there any truth left that can't be debated?
I don't know if you've caught on yet, but we aren't going to litigate our way out of this.
Again, is there an official statement from the ATF that can be viewed, or just some people on YouTube saying they’re coming for the braces?
I mean, sure, you can pay another lawyer a large sum of money to make whatever sort of argument you wish to make. But established case law suggests that you'd be better-off taking that cash and using it to build a bonfire - which at least would keep you warm for a bit and thus serve a purpose.
The cases I posted seem to indicate that the courts are quite accepting of the concept of charging a tax on a variety of firearms as defined in the NFA of 1934, and furthermore, those cases also indicate that it's OK to prohibit a specific individual from paying that tax on a specific firearm (say, an NFA item that was manufactured or "made" without paying the tax at some point prior to a specific individual's possession of that item) just so long as the general opportunity to pay the tax still exists. Stated otherwise, it is highly likely that the courts will support the ATF's ability to re-classify braced pistols as short-barreled rifles, allow for individuals to register those items and pay the applicable tax, and then end the ability to perform that transaction at undefined later point. The ATF did it with the Street Sweeper and USAS-12, and as demonstrated by United States vs. White, the court did not object.
Furthermore, Gonzales v Raich upheld the ability of the federal government to regulate and proscribe certain activities under the Commerce Clause. The refusal of SCOTUS to hear MSSA v Holder would seem to indicate that arguments against such are a dead-end.
Not to get all doom-and-gloom (other threads have clearly demonstrated that Pit believes Tinkerbell will die if we don't keep clapping), but there does not appear to be a whole lot of wiggle room in which to legally challenge the NFA. Plenty of people accused of illegal possession of an NFA item have tried this avenue before, and there is no case history suggesting any success. Perhaps the best hope would be jury nullification, but those are slim odds indeed.
Since I'm not a lawyer and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn last night or any nights in recent memory, all of the above could be completely wrong. I stand here willing to be corrected if someone wishes to do so.
Please see here:
ATF to Institute Rulemaking/Guidance Regarding Stabilizing Braces and Require Registration of Currently Owned Braces
In a 16 page draft copy of proposed rulemaking/guidance specifying “Objective Factors for Classifying Stablizing Braces”, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) h…
blog.princelaw.com
This not the usual YouTuber rumormongering.
Fact is they were legal, now they want to make them illegal. Typical NOVA mentality
Well, if one talks to an old-timer about compliance rates during various NFA registry events in the past, you'll hear about how a bunch of stuff went unregistered during the GCA '68 amnesty; it's possible that there are a few million of those items in existence. But then there was a bum-rush in '86 to register as many machine guns as possible before the registry closed to those. So good luck estimating how many "braced pistols" will ultimately be registered by their owners.
As far as the impact on the NFA Form 1 process is concerned, yeah - it's gonna be a clusterfuck that will tie up the system for months if not years. And maybe that's the whole point of this exercise.
That’s also another excuse for them to ask for more funding.
Guys, not everyone in gov agencies or LE is your enemy. Trust me when I tell you that there are some good people in these agencies still out there. Many feel just as you. Think of how hard it is being the good guy in a sea of bad from the top down.
Send that to the GOA!!!
The ATF can process very quickly! It’s not the ATF that holds the process up, it’s generally the FBI doing the background check that takes so long. With that said, the ATF is also stuck with the processes put in place by the Bureaucrats. Many of them know our pain and have offered ideas to remedy some of this but it’s usually shot down from the top. If you got ideas on how to streamline the processes, contact your reps and copy your local ATF director. Let your voices be heard. I understand where you guys are coming from but I assure you not everyone in these agencies is out to get you.
Looking forward to the video of Bluballs to do 120.
Please let us know when you plan to break the law and be smartass to the police. Looking forward to it.
Please let us know when you plan to break the law and be smartass to the police. Looking forward to it.
I don’t think us skeptical americans are worried about the 100’s of good cop, we’re worried about the 100,000’s of ones that won’t think twice about enforcing. I’m assuming you live very rurally, us that live rurally that are close to a huge city or even us that live in a huge city even in red states have to worry dude. I’ve seen Dallas pd’s armored vehicles, we watched in real time them blow a dude up in a parking garage with a robot. My point is that there is no shortage of options for us non compliers to be dealt with. When I see these vehicles and swat rolling down the street, it doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy feeling to own NFA items, not to mention braced pistols. I wish I was smarter in my youth to not be on any kind of federal registry.
This is horseshit logic. You're confusing the existence of an object with the way that it might be used, which is pretty much the same logical fallacy that gets us any number of really shitty laws.
The only incorrect use of a braced pistol is to commit a crime against another person with it. Any other use - sitting in the gun safe, used as the inventors intended, "inadvertent" shouldering during a range session, flexing on Instagram, whatever - should be fine with any of us.
Please see here:
ATF to Institute Rulemaking/Guidance Regarding Stabilizing Braces and Require Registration of Currently Owned Braces
In a 16 page draft copy of proposed rulemaking/guidance specifying “Objective Factors for Classifying Stablizing Braces”, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) h…
This not the usual YouTuber rumormongering.
Just finished reading the report. Doesn’t get any more vague than that I guess. After the flip-flop they did on shouldering the braces and now this, I’ve already decided to just form1 my 2 pistols. I hate it, and I really hate it for those who have many more pistols than I do. I can see them saying “we’ll waive the tax if you’re keeping the brace on there, but if you want an actual stock, go ahead and send the $200/stamp”. I also hate to be on a registry, but I’ve already got a form1 submitted for a can. I’m at 36 days and counting on that.
I only break laws when
1. They are in violation of Gods word or the constitution.
2. When I have a justifiable reason.
I’m glad you chose that example as I have more driver training through the mil and jobs than most Leo’s yet people are quick to say “public endangerment” without any acknowledgement of how much public endangerment is committed by Leo. I’ve seen the aftermath and read a few court cases. I’ve driven most of the most dangerous roads in America including my first years of driving being on a motorcycle down I-45. I’ve even rolled code. I know Ice road truckers and often deal with shitty whiteout conditions now.
I get the impression your prior Leo. If you want to have a rational discussion I’m game. If you just want to sling mud, go look for another huckleberry.
And where exactly is the part in the constitution making it a crime to be a smartass?? Or even a city ordnance? Something written in black and white? A bunch of atf letters?
Everyone on here knows fully what happens to smartasses, lots from first hand experience from one view point or the other. My question for you is when (no longer if) a Leo is violating your rights and a Leo sees it and does nothing, is he just as guilty of the crime?
And for every other Leo out there, I’m not your enemy yet. I’ve made my positions pretty clear over the years by my inability to hold my tongue on forums. And I do know Leo’s personally. I shouldn’t have to be the one to say it but the writings on the wall. Time is running out to decide if your for we the people and the constitution, or if yer a yes man putting your pension before your country, constitution, and we the people.
Talk to the old Leo’s that have retired if you need to hear it from brethren. We the people need every constitution supporting person we can get.
I'm not sure if they can waive the tax only if you plan to keep the brace on there, seems like that permanent configuration situation that I didn't see mentioned in there. Personally I think I'll patiently wait and see what the free registration looks like. If it's too restricted I will just offload my brace and pistol barrel but if it's just a free sbr stamp I'll get it and have the SBR I always wanted. Having suppressors means I already have to file forms when I move so not much would change.
The people I really see struggling with the decision to register or not are the ones who have pistols but no current NFA items.
Trust me, I hate the thought of being on a registry, but at this point I’m in the system, especially when they finally get around to finalizing my suppressor form1.
Registering my AR pistols just means I can put a real stock on there, and shoulder the damn thing whenever I want while remaining lawful. I’ll be damned if I’m losing my gun rights and everything else over a hundred dollar chunk of plastic.
I was talking through this with my wife, who knows little about firearms (especial once we get into esoteric classifications such as braced pistols). I got to the concept of "totality of the evidence" and she simply asked - "so the classification might change just because you changed scopes?" And that right there is the issue.
If I'm supposedly legal with a red dot but not with a 1-8x because the eye relief is different, or if chambering a particular config in 9mm is OK but 300 AAC is not, or if I can easily hold a 5.5 lb pistol outstretched but someone with spaghetti-noodle arms cannot and thus it's not a pistol to him - then we are not working under the rule of law.
"While the proposed rulemaking/guidance has not yet been published in the Federal Register, it is expected to be published in the upcoming weeks and interestingly – seemingly in violation of the law – ATF is only providing a 14 day comment period, at least, pursuant to the draft copy."
So there are no official changes to the ATF’s position on pistol braces. Lawyers are just letting everyone know there will be some upcoming changes, according to sources.
So there are no official changes to the ATF’s position on pistol braces. Lawyers are just letting everyone know there will be some upcoming changes, according to sources.
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