I’m looking to do an SBR in 45 (or maybe 10mm) and am looking at the APC and Vector. Anyone have feedback on these? The Vector is more distinctive and have lower entry costs.
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Sidearms & Scatterguns B&T APC45 or Kriss Vector?
- Thread starter SharpsNitro
- Start date
The HK UMC is one I also considered for conversion but the availability of donor guns and cost rule that one out.
I can only say what I know from checking out the Kriss at my LGS. Tall over bore rail for such a short distance round, complicated bolt mechanism, it's unnecessarily long for only ~5"(?) barrel, the trigger is mediocre with none or few upgrade options. It's kinda a cool package all the same. For a 45 cal PDW, you'd be an idiot not to consider it, but I think mostly because options are so limited in the first place. However, I'd put money on the BT being at least just as viable given the same points of consideration.
not quite an apples to apples comparison, I have the Vector and a B&T GHM in 9mm. Both have been flawless over about 1500 rounds each, with little maintenance other than a cleaning or two. I much prefer shooting the Vector. The recoil impulse (such as it is - not much) is smoother with the Vector's funky action. The Vector is simpler to break down. I'd definitely give the Vector a hard look.
All good info guys, thanks.
Anyone know anything, good or bad, about the Omega Gideon? I see you can build a UMP using one of their receivers. I haven’t run a total on a parts list to finish one yet but it should save money over converting a UMC.
Anyone know anything, good or bad, about the Omega Gideon? I see you can build a UMP using one of their receivers. I haven’t run a total on a parts list to finish one yet but it should save money over converting a UMC.
The B&T products are top notch and that would be a rock solid weapon and probably go up in value over time. I would consider a CMMG Banshee pistol as a baseline for your SBR project. Feeds from Glock magazines, delayed blockback design, many colors offered.
Hi,
From your 2 choices I would have to suggest the B&T, but would also have to throw another manufacturer into the mix for
.
Have you looked at the Brethren Armament offerings?
https://brethrenarms.com/category/roller-lock-firearms/
Sincerely,
Theis
From your 2 choices I would have to suggest the B&T, but would also have to throw another manufacturer into the mix for
.Have you looked at the Brethren Armament offerings?
https://brethrenarms.com/category/roller-lock-firearms/
Sincerely,
Theis
This is basically what I came down to. And everytime I consider a 9mm or .45 SBR, I always come back around to "is it better than the .300BLK?"
I'd still like something in 9mm just for shits and giggles, I have the brass and I have a spare can for it, just never get around to it.
All interesting ideas. The Brethern stuff is well out of my budget and the CMMG looks nice but I’ve already good a few AR pattern SBRs. Also already have SBRs in 9mm and 300Blk.
It looks like I’ll just wait for the APC45 to come back into stock at my wholesaler.
It looks like I’ll just wait for the APC45 to come back into stock at my wholesaler.
Seriously, I can't stand the Kriss, so I would never buy that. I've never had a lick of problems with the APC45. If you really, really, really have to have a .45 carbine, these are all great, but spendy choices. If I could only have one, and worried about $$$, I'd skip .45 and go 9mm with a CZ Scorpion. Hardest thing to beat right now. 9mm performs better at range than the heavy .45, and is so much cheaper to shoot. I have an Uzi, a Mk760, a Coharie Mp5 clone...all SBR'd. The 9mm guns just are more pleasant all around.
Still debating whether to SBR the UMP or not. The B&T is more practical. But the UMP is...a UMP. OK, so it's a dressed up USC, but STILL.
Still debating whether to SBR the UMP or not. The B&T is more practical. But the UMP is...a UMP. OK, so it's a dressed up USC, but STILL.
I would only choose the CZ over the B&T if cost was a primary concern. Initial purchase cost along with accessories and magazines are about 50% of what the corresponding B&T products are. The scorpion is a proven weapon and quite a few 5k and 10k torture tests out there with great results. I have no doubt the B&T would fair equally but I just haven't seen any thourough reviews. To that end....I'd still own the B&T over the CZ.
Scorpion is a no go for me because I already have one that’s an SBR. It’s a great gun but I don’t need a second one.
It’s a great gun but I don’t need a second one.
Unless you have a love lust relationship with .45 ACP....I'd ditch the idea and pick up a GHM9, standard or compact, Gen 2. B&T will release the Glock magazine lowers sometime this year. The bolts are already cut in the weapons for the Glock magazines. With today's 9mm ammunition capabilities I see zero draw to the .45. It's heavier, more expensive, and has no ballistic advantage over the 9mm.
False. 45ACP has a slight advantage in terminal ballistics over 9mm, but is still behind 357. Anything that has changed in the last ~100 years for 9mm has also changed for 45ACP. I'm really sick of hearing that rationale.
Anyways, OP I think you should get the BT in 9mm or 45. The only drawbacks I can see are the initial price and dealing with a foreign company if the firearm has any issues and whatnot, the Kriss has it beat in those regards.
Eathshattering advantage....with more expense, weight and recoil. Someone else married to the "good 'ol" .45 ACP. Puke. With all vaiables considered....it STILL makes zero sense. No hate for the round, but all things being equal you're just placing yourself at a disadvange over a 9mm platform.
Hi,
@Cheyenne Bodie
You utilized the picture from the 2014 FBI 9mm Justification - Freedom of Information Act but you did not state their conclusion.
The FBI conclusion was/is:
CONCLUSION
While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.
Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.
Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.”
Sincerely,
Theis
@Cheyenne Bodie
You utilized the picture from the 2014 FBI 9mm Justification - Freedom of Information Act but you did not state their conclusion.
The FBI conclusion was/is:
CONCLUSION
While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.
Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.
Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.”
Sincerely,
Theis
Notice I said nothing of other factors such as "all things considered" or the curtailed 1987 FBI study that was looking for a caliber that gave the most overall advantage to their agents. Although, IIRC they started with 357, hence why I implied it was relevant.
45ACP has better terminal ballistics over 9mm, that's a face value fact any day of the week. Facts and conclusions are two different things. I gave no consideration to peripheral factors in my clarification. In my opinion, the FBI won't come out and say lady agents can't shoot large calibers reliably so they just say it's good enough. Furthermore, bullet technology has not advanced for one and not the other, in fact, the two rounds have advanced more or less in tandem for as long as they have existed alongside each other at all. If you think I'm talking about the 9mm like it's a super soaker filled with piss you are heartily mistaken, I actually think the contrasts were exaggerated in the originally quoted passage.
45ACP has better terminal ballistics over 9mm, that's a face value fact any day of the week. Facts and conclusions are two different things. I gave no consideration to peripheral factors in my clarification. In my opinion, the FBI won't come out and say lady agents can't shoot large calibers reliably so they just say it's good enough. Furthermore, bullet technology has not advanced for one and not the other, in fact, the two rounds have advanced more or less in tandem for as long as they have existed alongside each other at all. If you think I'm talking about the 9mm like it's a super soaker filled with piss you are heartily mistaken, I actually think the contrasts were exaggerated in the originally quoted passage.
Yup, roger that. No negative rub meant at all and your point is well taken. I just don't see any advantage to the .45 ACP, all things being considered, over the 9mm so if the OP has to pull the trigger on just one platform the nod might go to the 9mm unless he's in love with the .45. Again, no malice intended and your facts/points are well taken.
My 9mm Vector gets shot alot, because it is fun. I would like to add a B&T someday. The Vector is a bit funky, and mine is a bit finicky on ammo. The platform encourages you to put rounds down range, so if it is just a fun range gun 9mm clearly has cost advantages. Glock mags are dirt cheap.
If you plan to use it for defense, the 10mm is an interesting option.
If you plan to use it for defense, the 10mm is an interesting option.
I only have a Kriss, not both so I can't give you a fair comparison. With that said I really enjoy my Kriss. I have the 10mm version and it's quite enjoyable to shoot. The new mag extensions that Kriss just came out with makes it super fun.
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