Bad primers or something else?

L

lonely_wolf

Woof.
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 12, 2009
673
3
Up North
#1
I was out today shooting in the freezing rain. Out of fifty rounds, forty-five were fine, but five did not fire.
Other than these five today, the rifle has about five hundred rounds of the same reloads through it without issue.
Makes these five seem suspicious.

Rifle is a Remington 700 with a tight chamber.

Relaods:
168AMAX
44.4 grs Varget
Winchester Brass
Winchester Large Rifle Primers

This was the sixth firing of this batch (fifty) of brass.

I've attached pictures of ten rounds from today. The fired brass is what the brass has always looked like. The unfired appears quite rounded.

Any ideas as to what happened? Simply bad primers? Pockets too deep?


Left Five Fired / Right Five Duds
IMG_5575_zps7e6669d4.jpg


Duds
IMG_5577_zps5cbe2990.jpg


Fired
IMG_5581_zps9790c15b.jpg


Duds
IMG_5580_zpsdc62356c.jpg


Fired
IMG_5583_zpsb6c53728.jpg
 
#2
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Looks like a few bad primers. It does happen. The reason the fired ones are flatter and the "duds" are rounded is because the pressure of being fired fills and flattens the primers in the pocket a bit. When a cartridge does not ignite it makes the primer appear rounded instead.
 
#3
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Try seating the primer deeper. Also, You should have tried to fires them a second time. That would have helped in the problem solving. Take one apart. See if it tried to ignite the powder. Now take that piece of brass that has no powder or bullet and put it back in the gun and see if the primer goes off.

If it does, you did not seat the primer deep enough or you have a firing pin protrusion problem.
 
#4
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Do they with out a doubt have powder in the case, Ive seen this type of primer look with cases that failed to have powder and yet enough neck tension that the bullet stayed in the case when fired. Either weigh or shake to confirm.

oneshot
 
#5
Re: Bad primers or something else?

You need to pull your bullets to start with. Then decap them and see if the primer ignited.
By the size of the dent in the primer, it looks as though the firing pin strike was good enough.
 
#7
Re: Bad primers or something else?

@tomme boy: I fired them all more than once. First time. Wait one minute and a bit. Open close bolt. Fire. Wait... None of them went off.

@Innovative: Maybe, but seems doubtful. These are all range reloads. Fired them last weekend. Reloaded them and fired them again this weekend. They are never more than a few days old and never outside longer than it takes to fire them.



I pulled them this evening. All of them had powder and none of the primers showed signs of ignition. I will add I use a pocket uniformer on all my brass.

I'm guessing they were just bad primers, then? Seems uncanny how I suddenly had five in one day.
 
#8
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Lonelywolf,

I'm going to take a stab here and say you've probably got some headspace issues with these rounds. The chances of getting five bad primers in the same box are astronomical; vitually no way it could happen.

I'd say you've sized the cases down far enought that they're being pushed forward by the firing pin when "fired." Rather than having a solid stop which provides correct ignition at the end of the strikers blow, it sets some rounds off, and merely pushes a few forward. The lact of resitance "cushions" the blow, which is why these didn't go off. I'd suggest the use of a chamber gage like the L.E. Wilson (at the minimum) or the RCBS Precision Mic. The latter will help you determine just how much headspace you've got and set your dies up properly to avoid this.

But no, five bad primers out of the same box is telling me the problem is either in the gun, or your handloading. Trust me, it isn't the primers.
 
#9
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Do you by chance use a ultrasonic cleaner to clean the brass?

I had some bad primers due to me not getting the inside of the cases completely dry. I did not leave them in the oven long enough.
 
#11
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Sorry for such a late reply, as I appreciate the help.

I full length resize with a Forester. My chamber is minimum spec Obermeyer. I allowed the brass to grow in the beginning but there was very little. I believe the die and chamber are pretty close. Plus, I found factory 168 AMAX shot well, so I have basically cloned there load as far as headspace and ogive. I've been busy at work, so I'll have to post exact numbers when I get near the bench again. Tommorrow or Monday.
 
#12
Re: Bad primers or something else?

I visited the bench.

Back when the rifle arrived I put eighty rounds of Hornady Match 168 gr A-MAX through it. I measured before and after. They all had headspace variances between 1.618”-1.620” with an average of 1.619”. After firing they measured 1.620”-1.622” with an average of 1.621”.

My full length Forester die sizes ~1.620” (+/- .001”).

As I mentioned in my previous post, the factory loads shot well and the die sizes similar to their dimensions, so I basically full length size and run clone loads.

I measured the brass of the five that did not go off. For some reason three of them had headspace which could explain what happened: 1.615”, 1.616”, 1.616”. The other two were also a bit short, both at: 1.618”. However, as noted above, a few of the Hornady loads had similar headspace and went off with out issue.

I also tried to measure the firing pin protrusion as best I could with my dial caliper: 0.053”. Very rough measurement as it was hard to get everything level and still. I first measured the depth of the bolt face from bolt rim: 0.149”. Then bolt rim to exposed firing pin: 0.096” and subtracted. Both measurements could be off quite a bit though so I don’t know if it will help...
 
#14
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Lonely,
There was a thread awhile back about bad Winchester primers, I'm surprised anyone in that thread hasn't spoken up.
To me if your primers didn't ignite, after looking at the strike on them, which was good, I'd say it is the primer.

I'm ruling out headspace because of the numbers you posted. If you remotely feel it's headspace, take the same case, prime it with a diff brand primer and load them again, see what gives. If it is headspace, you can get them to fire by seating your bullet into the lands with a reduced charge to salvage your brass.
Please let us know what you found.
 
#17
Re: Bad primers or something else?

I pulled the five rounds, re-primed, re-powdered, and re-seated. Did not touch the brass, so we shall see this weekend if they fire or not.

Grease may actually be an issue, now that you mention it. I recently bought a new tube of synthetic grease and it does not seem to be consistent. It seems to separate(?). When I squeeze it out sometimes it is thick and other times it is liquid at first then blobs...? I never really gave it much thought, though. I'm going to clean the bolt out and try something else.
 
#18
Re: Bad primers or something else?

It is possible that the primers weren't seated deep enough. When this condition is present, the firing pin strikes the primer but the blow is cushioned by the primer moving forward within the primer pocket. I had this issue with .45ACP when I first started loading on a progressive. I recognized the problem and corrected my technique on the press, seating the primers as deep as they would go. Haven't had a misfire since. I'll add that the problem was NOT recognizable after the first attempted firing, as the primer strike fully seated the primer. I was looking through the ammunition that I hadn't fired yet and found a couple primers that were seated proud of the case head. I tried these with some firing and some not.

The suggestions listed by other members are also possible. Just pointing out my experience with high seated primers.

Good Luck.
 
#19
Re: Bad primers or something else?

Interesting Sawgunner2001. I'm going to take a closer look at how flat my primers are and mark any that look 'off.' That way if they misfire, I may have learned something! Thank you.
 
#20
Re: Bad primers or something else?

On second inspection of the photographs you provided, specifically in the fourth from the top, the primers look as though they are seated well <span style="font-style: italic">below</span> the case head. Since you mentioned that you had uniformed all of the primer pockets, I wonder if the primers are seating too deep and are not getting struck hard enough by the firing pin. OR that the primers are being seated to a "normal" depth and are being pushed beyond what is normal when struck by a firing pin.
 
#21
I apologize to everyone who has responded and helped me try to problem solve this issue. I have been shooting weekends only and life as been absorbing my weekends too often making it take a lot of time to experiment.

I have tried a lot of the suggestions. I have even went out and bought factory rounds (Hornady Match) and still the same primer dents but no bang. After speaking with my gunsmith about this and he hearing the factory rounds wouldn't go off either, he had a question: Do you dry fire a lot? The answer was yes. A lot. He recommended I replace my firing pin spring as it may have become weak. I now have a 28lb on the way. Fingers crossed.
 
#22
You seem to be well versed in what you are doing, but have you pulled the firing pin and checked for rust/sludge or whatever?
Do you run the firing pin dry? The freezing rain had me wondering if whatever is in there getting stiff in cold temps?
I have seen light rifles act up in the cold before. Make sure that pin and bore is clean and dry.

Remington springs are normally good to go.
 
#23
Yes, I run it dry. And it has been more than dry the last few trips. I've also put two cans of brake cleaner through it making sure there is nothing impeding the pin along its travel.

I hope the spring is the answer, although my smith also agrees that a Remington spring getting weak is rare, but that's about all that is left suspect. If the spring change fails, the rifle goes in the mail so he can fire it himself!
 
#24
oneshot.onehit said:
Do they with out a doubt have powder in the case, Ive seen this type of primer look with cases that failed to have powder and yet enough neck tension that the bullet stayed in the case when fired. Either weigh or shake to confirm.

oneshot
Click to expand...
I doubt you can put enough "tension" on the neck to keep a bullet from moving forward/out of case/into grooves when fired with only a LRP (no powder), brass isn't that strong. I think your primers were "high seated", not seated to deeply. I agree with the previous poster, should have attempted second firing, my guess is they would have all fired if hit again, as the first strike of the f/pin "seated the cups". If not you may in fact have a batch of primers that have a high percent that won't go bang. If you have another brand, give them a try. Always try to fix the problem by doing the easy stuff first!
 
Last edited:
#25
Pawprint2

Actually, you can. Depends on the cartridge to a large extent of course, but I've seen exactly that several times with 308s. I've also seen several instances where the primer did move the bullet out a bit, jamming it (lightly) in the rifling. This was always the result of a skipped case during charging, and not something that I'd set out to experiment with, so I can't say if primer brand or status (standard, match or magnum) would have made any difference here. For whatever it may be worth, our normal brass was Federal Match, and the FC210M primer was the most commonly used for our testing. Necks with this brass were always sized using a .337" bushing, which gave about .002" constriction. The cases often made a nice little "whooshing" sound when you break the seal, fairly soft, but audible nonetheless.
 
#26
Rereading the thread I realize I haven't given as much information as I thought I had. Probably, due to the delays between shooting and speaking about this issue with different people. Here are few notes:

- Every cartridge has had powder. Empty cases is not an issue.
- Not a single primer has actually went off. When I deprimmed no primers dented by the firing pin had been activated.
- All cartridges were 'fired' numerous times. On some primers, the edges of multiple overlapped dents can be seen, still no ignition.
- Primers are fully seated. They are not seated too deep.
- The fact factory ammo reacted the same (Primer dent, no bang), which proved my reloads are probably fine.
- I have disassembled and completely cleaned the bolt numerous times now.
- The weather has been fine.

I hope I didn't miss anything.

...still waiting for the spring to arrive.
 
Last edited:
#27
ksthomas said:
Pawprint2

Actually, you can. Depends on the cartridge to a large extent of course, but I've seen exactly that several times with 308s. I've also seen several instances where the primer did move the bullet out a bit, jamming it (lightly) in the rifling. This was always the result of a skipped case during charging, and not something that I'd set out to experiment with, so I can't say if primer brand or status (standard, match or magnum) would have made any difference here. For whatever it may be worth, our normal brass was Federal Match, and the FC210M primer was the most commonly used for our testing. Necks with this brass were always sized using a .337" bushing, which gave about .002" constriction. The cases often made a nice little "whooshing" sound when you break the seal, fairly soft, but audible nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Learn something everyday, over the years I've seen bullets fired with only a primer (always because the loader screwed up) and the bullet always left the case, and always ended up stuck in the bore or the forcing cone (on wheel guns). Those stuck in forcing cones were rolled crimped from straight walled cases. SAAMI's glossary call this the same thing I've always heard it called
-a Squib Load-. Don't plan on doing any experiments, I'll take your word for it. I read a very long report regarding the ignition sequence of a rifle round, the pressure gauges indicated that initial bullet jump was actually caused by the primer and the physical volume of the powder, as the primer was an explosive, whereas the smokeless powder for small arms is a flamable solid, the primer pushed everything prior to the powder being lit, hence bullet movement prior to any spike in pressure, in fact the quick rise[pressure] starts after the bullet's engagement, of course this was just one report, and doesn't have anything to do with your rounds. Thanks for sharing!
 
#28
ksthomas said:
Lonelywolf,

I'm going to take a stab here and say you've probably got some headspace issues with these rounds. The chances of getting five bad primers in the same box are astronomical; vitually no way it could happen.

I'd say you've sized the cases down far enought that they're being pushed forward by the firing pin when "fired." Rather than having a solid stop which provides correct ignition at the end of the strikers blow, it sets some rounds off, and merely pushes a few forward. The lact of resitance "cushions" the blow, which is why these didn't go off. I'd suggest the use of a chamber gage like the L.E. Wilson (at the minimum) or the RCBS Precision Mic. The latter will help you determine just how much headspace you've got and set your dies up properly to avoid this.

But no, five bad primers out of the same box is telling me the problem is either in the gun, or your handloading. Trust me, it isn't the primers.
Click to expand...



When I found that some of my Winchester cases were having the same problem I first measured the headspace off the case. Sure enough, they were short. I had just done a "hurry-up" job of sizing them by screwing the sizing die in as far as it went plus the 1/4 turn. Also had deep primer pockets due to a uniforming tool that was adjusted too deep by Lyman.

I just discarded the cases. Some say to just load the next bullets real long so they jam into the rifling, with a slightly reduced charge, so the case will expand to chamber size. Problem there is that they also stretch just above the case head and will separate sooner than later.

This is another illustration of a Headspace Measuring tool like the Hornady being a valuable bench asset.
 
#29
Deadshot2, you raise good points, but I feel I have closed them as possibilities in my case. I have and religiously use a headspacing tool. I also have a pocket uniformer that I use and it has never been a problem before this current issue. I've hundreds of rounds through the rifle (all identically prepared) that fired fine. I have cases I have fired and resized and uniformed six times with no issues until now.
 
#31
Following Kevin's line of thinking, how about this? Get a straight edge, and lay it across the heads of those cartridges that didn't go off. Specific to the primer cup, is it now sitting "up above" the head? Granted, you don't generally want chamber/case interference (negative headspace), but you don't want too much positive headspace either.

I see you've got minor cratering witnessed on the fired rounds. This can sometimes be indicative of too much case/chamber freedom. Sometimes too, mild elevated pressure.

Back in the day, Lance Hopper solved a CISM gun misfire problem by putting in a new spring. Actually, it helped solve some accuracy problems too. Probably more consistent ignition.

Get some scotch tape. Full-lenght size some rounds. Put no primer in. Lay a piece of scotch tape across the head of the case, trimming the sides with a razor blade. Insert into chamber. Close bolt. Bolt close? Yes = take out case, place a second piece of tape on head. Trim edges. Insert in chamber. Close bolt. Bolt close? Continue exercise until you can't close that bolt. Find out your own headspace. Keep tabs on # layers of tape, and figure out the total thickness.
 
#32
Well the 28lbs Wolff Spring arrived and installed with no issues. Checked everything for safety and went to the range. Not a single misfire. I had reloads left over from batches that had misfired and they all went off. Also had a few that I hadn't pulled yet and they also went off. Seems the issue was a weak firing pin spring the whole time. Problem solved. Took for f'n ever though!
 
#34
If you don't mind, how old is the rifle and how do you store it?

Recently we had some guys using rented AIAXs and one of them kept having FTFs with M118LR ammo. About 1 in 20 would not fire even after I tried multiple times. I think that even though the AIAX only came out a little over 2 years ago that these rifles were stored for long periods with the firing pin in the cocked position. Eventually the firing pin spring took a set and the rifle no longer worked properly.
 
#36
lonely_wolf said:
Rereading the thread I realize I haven't given as much information as I thought I had. Probably, due to the delays between shooting and speaking about this issue with different people. Here are few notes:

- Every cartridge has had powder. Empty cases is not an issue.
- Not a single primer has actually went off. When I deprimmed no primers dented by the firing pin had been activated.
- All cartridges were 'fired' numerous times. On some primers, the edges of multiple overlapped dents can be seen, still no ignition.
- Primers are fully seated. They are not seated too deep.
- The fact factory ammo reacted the same (Primer dent, no bang), which proved my reloads are probably fine.
- I have disassembled and completely cleaned the bolt numerous times now.
- The weather has been fine.

I hope I didn't miss anything.

...still waiting for the spring to arrive.
Click to expand...


Even as astronomical as it sounds.... isn't it bad primers? It seems like it to me. Or am I over looking something...?
 
#37
ssg1400,

No, the primers are more likely than not just fine. As I said, they are just absurdly reliable, and the odds of getting a truly "bad" primer are very small. The odds of getting several in the same box, go buy five big lottery tickets in different states on the same day, and be the only winner in all. That's the sort of odds we're talking about. They do happen, and over the years I have actually run across three genuinely bad primers; not a speck of compound in any of them. That's three, out of something over 4 million rounds loaded and fired.

Primers are just a part of an entire system that needs all of its components to function properly to successfully fire a round. Primer, primer pocket, correct seating of the primer in the pocket, correct headspace relationship between chamber and case, correct firing pin protrusion, sufficient energy being delivered from a firing pin spring, etc., etc.. Lots of stuff at work here, and they ALL have to be in sync for everything to work properly. 1smalljohnson mentioned Lance correcting a CISM gun by replacing a firing pin spring, and that's the kind of thing I mean here. Even if the rounds are going off, minor variations in spring strength, headspace or any of the other variables I mentioned (and many I didn't) may give other problems that most shooters won't automatically associate with ignition problems. Most of the AMU guys (like Lance) are savvy enough to know about these things, since they spend so much time on the guns.

Check your springs, make sure the primers are seated correctly, and above all, use headspace gages or tools when setting up your dies and reloading, and that'll eliminate 95% of the problems that routinely get blamed on primers alone.
 
#38
ssg1400 said:
Even as astronomical as it sounds.... isn't it bad primers? It seems like it to me. Or am I over looking something...?
Click to expand...
You overlooked the solution LonelyWolf reported:

"Well the 28lbs Wolff Spring arrived and installed with no issues. Checked everything for safety and went to the range. Not a single misfire. I had reloads left over from batches that had misfired and they all went off. Also had a few that I hadn't pulled yet and they also went off. Seems the issue was a weak firing pin spring the whole time. Problem solved. Took for f'n ever though! "
 
#39
Astronomical=bad primers, especially five of them followed by factory rounds failure to fire.

Weak firing pin spring=not quite astronomical but still very rare.

uses a primer pocket uniformer and seats primers to the bottom of the pocket.

Mentions that he checks headspace and the ones that didn't fire were shorter by a couple thou? As were a couple factories.

Okay, OP believes the problem is solved with a stronger spring.

I'm not so sure? He states it is a 700 with a "tight chamber", but I still wonder if there could be some combination of incorrect full length resizing. At this point, we may never know, but.

I might be tempted to go back to the original spring with the short cases and see if they all fail to fire. BB
 
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