Baddest military action - based target/sniper rifle
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
- Start date
This Lee Navy is pretty unique, it's actually a prototype sniper rifle. The rifle was made in 1902 and then sent back to the factory in 1912 to be converted by Winchester into a sniper rifle. They modified the top handguard (similar to an M1941 USMC sniper), custom made the tall brass bases (Winchester marked) and fixed a Winchester A5 scope. The bases aren't just tall as hell, they are also offset to the left.
I believe that they made the bases this way so that a sniper could reload using stripper clips. Without the scope being mounted very high up and/or offset to one side, it would be impossible to use stripper clips. I believe that the M1895 is the first US military rifle that used stripper clips, so this might be the very first US sniper rifle to also use them (although I could be wrong, I don't know if the 1903 Warner Swayze snipers could use stripper clips). I bought an original M1895 stripper clip and some 6mm Lee Navy rounds to test this theory, and it worked!
This rifle is documented in the reference book "The Winchester Lee Rifle" by Myszkowski and also in "Death From Afar vol. 5" by Chandler. I still need to get hi-rez pics of the rifle taken, will post them when that happens.
I believe that they made the bases this way so that a sniper could reload using stripper clips. Without the scope being mounted very high up and/or offset to one side, it would be impossible to use stripper clips. I believe that the M1895 is the first US military rifle that used stripper clips, so this might be the very first US sniper rifle to also use them (although I could be wrong, I don't know if the 1903 Warner Swayze snipers could use stripper clips). I bought an original M1895 stripper clip and some 6mm Lee Navy rounds to test this theory, and it worked!
This rifle is documented in the reference book "The Winchester Lee Rifle" by Myszkowski and also in "Death From Afar vol. 5" by Chandler. I still need to get hi-rez pics of the rifle taken, will post them when that happens.
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USMCSGT0331,
I can't wait for more pics on this rifle and stories to come! I found it quite fascinating as I knew people who shot 6mmLN.when they were chambered in rifles of the '20's and '30's. Their opinion was that when the .243 and 6mm came along in the mid '50's, they weren't anything the 6mm Lee Navy couldn't do. The funny thing was, back in the day, you couldn't get light bullets for the 6mm Lee Navy. For years after the .243 Win/6mm Rem came out, you could barely get heavy bullets. Twist was a huge deal in that, of course. The .243 could handle up to 100 gr. bullets. Most of the surplus 6mmLN bullets were 112's, The barrels came in a 1-7/12" twist. So, you couldn't really stabilize the 133's. Which was the bullet used in Gitmo. Fast forward 50 years and you couldn't find a 6mm barrel twisted tighter than 1-10".
Marketing played a huge role in it's demise, and of course it's successors success. The .250-3000 and .257 Rbts, pretty much over-ruled it. Then along came the .243/6mm and the .25's were done for. All of them work for the intended purpose. But, in reality, when you go from one rifle of 1-14" twist, to 1-10" or even farther still 1-6 1/2". You literally have completely different purpose rifles. A case in point is the 5.56x45 NATO. The original M16's had a 1-14" twist and were just enough to stabilize the 55 gr. FMJ. Then the A1's were 1-12". The big jump was with the A2, tightening the twist clear down to 1-7". The difference in bullets and what they do is enormous.
That said, if I may ask, is this rifle twisted in 1-6.5' OR 1-7.5"?
Added: One other point to remind those who may ever get to shoot a rifle chambered in 6mm Lee Navy. Use true 6mm Lee Navy cases or .220 Swift cases (with rims turned down if need be). DO NOT use 30-40 Krag cases modified to work. So far that has killed one noted collector and seriously debilitated another. The Krag cases are not meant for high pressure. They rupture the rear of the case, even at low pressures, then secondary ignition/detonation occurs. Please, save your rifle, if not your face/life.
I can't wait for more pics on this rifle and stories to come! I found it quite fascinating as I knew people who shot 6mmLN.when they were chambered in rifles of the '20's and '30's. Their opinion was that when the .243 and 6mm came along in the mid '50's, they weren't anything the 6mm Lee Navy couldn't do. The funny thing was, back in the day, you couldn't get light bullets for the 6mm Lee Navy. For years after the .243 Win/6mm Rem came out, you could barely get heavy bullets. Twist was a huge deal in that, of course. The .243 could handle up to 100 gr. bullets. Most of the surplus 6mmLN bullets were 112's, The barrels came in a 1-7/12" twist. So, you couldn't really stabilize the 133's. Which was the bullet used in Gitmo. Fast forward 50 years and you couldn't find a 6mm barrel twisted tighter than 1-10".
Marketing played a huge role in it's demise, and of course it's successors success. The .250-3000 and .257 Rbts, pretty much over-ruled it. Then along came the .243/6mm and the .25's were done for. All of them work for the intended purpose. But, in reality, when you go from one rifle of 1-14" twist, to 1-10" or even farther still 1-6 1/2". You literally have completely different purpose rifles. A case in point is the 5.56x45 NATO. The original M16's had a 1-14" twist and were just enough to stabilize the 55 gr. FMJ. Then the A1's were 1-12". The big jump was with the A2, tightening the twist clear down to 1-7". The difference in bullets and what they do is enormous.
That said, if I may ask, is this rifle twisted in 1-6.5' OR 1-7.5"?
Added: One other point to remind those who may ever get to shoot a rifle chambered in 6mm Lee Navy. Use true 6mm Lee Navy cases or .220 Swift cases (with rims turned down if need be). DO NOT use 30-40 Krag cases modified to work. So far that has killed one noted collector and seriously debilitated another. The Krag cases are not meant for high pressure. They rupture the rear of the case, even at low pressures, then secondary ignition/detonation occurs. Please, save your rifle, if not your face/life.
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Say sir how bout the Winchester 51 Imperial? What would ya choose between that and a Remington 30? Also, how much of a crime is it to put a nice new barrel on a Rem 30?
Having ZERO experience with the Win model 51, I can"t say anything about it. Certainly not like the Rem model 30 which is based off the U.S. model of 1917. While I may prefer the 1903 over the 1917, it doesn't mean the 1917 was ineffective. In my, or the Army's, eyes.
Added: Are you talking about the J.C.Higgins Model 51? Built by Winchester for Sears? I have handled those. If you go back to my first post, I explain why I would go with something other than either of these.
Added: Are you talking about the J.C.Higgins Model 51? Built by Winchester for Sears? I have handled those. If you go back to my first post, I explain why I would go with something other than either of these.
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No sir I meant the Win 51 Imperial. AFAIK the first centerfire bolt that Winchester put on the civvie market correct me if Im wrong. Apparently like 24 total produced(!!!). A dude on another site I frequent was asking what the value of a Win 51 Imperial thats been rebarrelled(f%(kin IDIOT!!!!!) would be LOL. I'd reckon the 51 was the CF counterpart to the 52s before the 54 came along...?
buffalowinter - you seem to be into the 300m stuff, any chance ya ever got to lay your hands on a Bleiker, Grunig & Elmiger, or Keppeler??? Those things are sweet.
buffalowinter - you seem to be into the 300m stuff, any chance ya ever got to lay your hands on a Bleiker, Grunig & Elmiger, or Keppeler??? Those things are sweet.
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Below is a picture of me shooting my Grunig and Elmiger 300m rifle in 7.62 at the Internationale Matchwoche 1983, Zurich Albisquetli, Switzerland.
I also have several other 300m rifles in various calibers. Here is a Remington 700 I built in 243 Winchester
a French Unique in 7mm-08
A Swiss Tanner in 7.5 Swiss
And a very rare Steyr C.I.S.M. in 7.62
I also have several other 300m rifles in various calibers. Here is a Remington 700 I built in 243 Winchester
a French Unique in 7mm-08
A Swiss Tanner in 7.5 Swiss
And a very rare Steyr C.I.S.M. in 7.62
Buffalowinter,
I have to say you have the ecclectic collection of firearms that I am striving for...Would it be waaaay too cheesy if I asked that you adopt me?
. Ha ha jk.
Which brings me to a valid question, I hope, which cartridge do you prefer for 300m shooting?
I have to say you have the ecclectic collection of firearms that I am striving for...Would it be waaaay too cheesy if I asked that you adopt me?
. Ha ha jk.Which brings me to a valid question, I hope, which cartridge do you prefer for 300m shooting?
Coyote,
I don't have any of my resources on hand, but, I do believe the first bolt action from Winchester was the 1878 Hotchkiss. Being as how the model 51 only had 24 made, I don't see where a viable evaluation can be made to assess whether or not it would be suitable as a sniper rifle. And, if it goes as far back as "the first" bolt action of Winchester, it would clearly be inferior to the advanced design and materials of the Remington model 30. Again, though, neither would be my pick for reasons stated previously.
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While I'm at Raton, I thought I should post up some groups. Here's the .223 Savage groups and then some 6-.284 @200 yds.: 
It seems like I did better shooting a zero group than a regular group with the .223
That's six shots with the 6-.284. I had odd bullets because I couldn't seem to get my head adjusted as to how to zero @200 yds.
It seems like I did better shooting a zero group than a regular group with the .223
That's six shots with the 6-.284. I had odd bullets because I couldn't seem to get my head adjusted as to how to zero @200 yds.
[FONT=georgia, serif]Sandwarrior, I have always shot 7.62, and 7.5 Swiss is pretty much the same thing. It all boils down to wind-bucking capability vs. recoil. 120 shots over 4 hours trying to hit a half dollar sized 10 ring at 300 meters, with 100 other shooters banging away next to you can be very trying. I think that the .243 Winchester might be the way to go over the heavier calibers. Unfortunately, since 300m is no longer an Olympic sport, there are only a couple of matches a year and I no longer compete. I put the .243 into an Anschutz stock but I also have an MDT chassis for it and think it might be the way to go for PRS.
If you want eclectic, here is a 4 barrel volley gun I built.[/FONT]
If you want eclectic, here is a 4 barrel volley gun I built.[/FONT]
Buffalo,
I didn't know how long you stayed in the game. Disappointing that so many shooting discplines are being eliminated from the Olympics.
Anyhow, when I lived in MN, there was a big 300m club. And, of course, it was big news that a new record had been shot with the 6mmBr. A perfect score IIRC, with a new higher X-count. As you mentioned the .243 is the way to go, the 6mmBr just does it with less throat erosion.
Added:. That is quite an impressive volley gun. What caliber?
Also, for you and sirhr...and pmc:
I didn't know how long you stayed in the game. Disappointing that so many shooting discplines are being eliminated from the Olympics.
Anyhow, when I lived in MN, there was a big 300m club. And, of course, it was big news that a new record had been shot with the 6mmBr. A perfect score IIRC, with a new higher X-count. As you mentioned the .243 is the way to go, the 6mmBr just does it with less throat erosion.
Added:. That is quite an impressive volley gun. What caliber?
Also, for you and sirhr...and pmc:
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Wow buffalowinter thats awesome! Out of all those high end 300m Euro rigs what was your favorite? What seemed highest quality? Im sure theyre all pretty danged impressive.. Also, I see it on basically every Swiss made competition rifle out there, what is that metal piece between the barrel/action? Surely not a recoil lug, being so thick?? Gotta say I'd at the least give up a few toes and an appendix for even a Bleiker rimfire or Walther KK500, much less a 6BR or 6.5x47 Bleiker, GE, or Keppeler, etc. Any one of those are downright sweet.
Thanks for replies yall.
Thanks for replies yall.
The Tanner was built in the 70's. The large gray piece between the barrel and receiver is a proprietary method of mounting/supporting/bedding the barrel. The barrel is free-floated but the action and large gray block are bedded to the wood stock...this was before glass bedding. The Grunig is a scaled up version of the smallbore Anschutz 1413/1813/2013...and as such feels a little clunky. The Tanner seems to balance better. Quality wise, they are all outstanding, hand finished firearms. If I was to compete again, I would build my own gun...I'd take the French Unique barreled action in .243 (which is a switch barrel system) and put it in a Walther GX-1 stock.
French Unique [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/C77Zdv2l.jpg"}[/IMG2]
GX-1 [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/sjxjbxVl.jpg"}[/IMG2]
Malcolm Cooper (UK), Double Gold Olympian, shooting the Walther GX-1 he helped design (founder/owner/designer of Accuracy International, the man who gave you AI and AICS) A close personal friend of mine, well...as fellow English speakers (sort of), I had lunch with him and his wife Sarah in Zurich while we were all shooting in the Internationale Matchwoche in Zurich, shown above. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/wOK4jq9h.jpg"}[/IMG2]
French Unique [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/C77Zdv2l.jpg"}[/IMG2]
GX-1 [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/sjxjbxVl.jpg"}[/IMG2]
Malcolm Cooper (UK), Double Gold Olympian, shooting the Walther GX-1 he helped design (founder/owner/designer of Accuracy International, the man who gave you AI and AICS) A close personal friend of mine, well...as fellow English speakers (sort of), I had lunch with him and his wife Sarah in Zurich while we were all shooting in the Internationale Matchwoche in Zurich, shown above. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/wOK4jq9h.jpg"}[/IMG2]
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He came up with a hell of an action. AI has actually gone back to a bolt like this, with six lugs. This is Coopermatch CISM. If I had the cash when these rare puppies came up for sale I would have bought the second in a walnut stock as a 5 round repeater. Trigger is a little odd, but breaks clean at about 2# once both stages stack. The rail is Ti and we made it so I could stop using that ridiculous one piece that is worthless for prone and not repeatable when switching to irons. It sports a homemade 4 way buttplate now too. Very light with the laminate pine stock, even with the embedded aluminum bedding block and four action screws 
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I was just bout to mention the Coopermatch! Fckn sweet rifle! How does one go about finding something along the lines of these for sale in USA? Ive never even seen a Bleiker for example, for sale in CONUS.
Sorry for derailing my own thread, but I must admit even though I dont shoot smallbore or 300m(not yet atleast), them rifles are my dream. Benchrest may be the top fuel drag racing of shooting, but 300m is the Formula 1.
Maybe youd be the best to answer this buffalowinter ; if one of the 300m rifles wasnt the #1 most impressive rifle youve handled for fit/finish/quality, then what was? Because from the outside looking in, despite their "progressiveness", them Europeans IMO outdo us Americans hands down when talking high end bolt actions(and double rifles,etc). As I said tho, thats just from the outside looking in. Grass is always greener on the other side. I would reckon though that our custom precision barrel industry is second to absolutely none. Eg: Bleiker, some of the winningest rimfires in the Olympics, use Liljas... quite a few of the Anschutz had Liljas on em too apparently.
Sorry for derailing my own thread, but I must admit even though I dont shoot smallbore or 300m(not yet atleast), them rifles are my dream. Benchrest may be the top fuel drag racing of shooting, but 300m is the Formula 1.
Maybe youd be the best to answer this buffalowinter ; if one of the 300m rifles wasnt the #1 most impressive rifle youve handled for fit/finish/quality, then what was? Because from the outside looking in, despite their "progressiveness", them Europeans IMO outdo us Americans hands down when talking high end bolt actions(and double rifles,etc). As I said tho, thats just from the outside looking in. Grass is always greener on the other side. I would reckon though that our custom precision barrel industry is second to absolutely none. Eg: Bleiker, some of the winningest rimfires in the Olympics, use Liljas... quite a few of the Anschutz had Liljas on em too apparently.
I think PRL brought 5-10 Coopermatchs into the country back in the late 90s. I know where three are, to include the one repeater. Mine, It shoots ok. I have worn out three or four 6.5x284 barrels and it currently wears a 6.5x47L, which I cannot recommend as the whorishly large firing pin hole allows way too much flow. The rifle makes a great palma or any rifle rig with large primers. Also, something to keep in mind (and I don't think many AI fanboys take this into account) is I had to drop my standard loads by .5gr to keep the unlocking smooth so I didn't have to rebuild position every shot. It takes a lot of effort to start opening 6 lugs and then get a smooth extraction. That said, I would buy another if the price was right.
If you're serious I can put you in touch with a guy who had two Gruinigs (One 243 and one 308) and a one other 300M rifle for sale last September. There are a lot of 300M rifles around Ft. Benning GA. AMU was still shooting 300M last I knew. That may have changed if it was dropped form the Olympics. Their 300M electronic range had open matches and the euroshit(affectionate) came out of the wood works. Lots of neat rifles.
keep in mind when you're buying stuff like this, Brownells isn't gonna have parts. I can't get a bolt head for my Coopermatch. It looks identical to the new stuff in pics but Tom could confirm they could get parts. If you buy something rare and it breaks you could be in for a pricey machining bill at worst and a long as wait from someone in Europe to sell and export us parts at best.
Chris
If you're serious I can put you in touch with a guy who had two Gruinigs (One 243 and one 308) and a one other 300M rifle for sale last September. There are a lot of 300M rifles around Ft. Benning GA. AMU was still shooting 300M last I knew. That may have changed if it was dropped form the Olympics. Their 300M electronic range had open matches and the euroshit(affectionate) came out of the wood works. Lots of neat rifles.
keep in mind when you're buying stuff like this, Brownells isn't gonna have parts. I can't get a bolt head for my Coopermatch. It looks identical to the new stuff in pics but Tom could confirm they could get parts. If you buy something rare and it breaks you could be in for a pricey machining bill at worst and a long as wait from someone in Europe to sell and export us parts at best.
Chris
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Yes sir thats right Army does still do 300m last I checked. Im from/live in GA also. But unfortunately, I dont know where to sell an appendix and some toes, pinky fingers.. Id pay just to shoot one a few times, every single one of em is bad to the bone.
With the heavy bolt lift in mind, would that Coopermatch be your first pick for Palma/Prone/Highpower? If not then what? Highpower or Mid and Long Range Prone is something I definitely plan to get into when $$ permits.
With the heavy bolt lift in mind, would that Coopermatch be your first pick for Palma/Prone/Highpower? If not then what? Highpower or Mid and Long Range Prone is something I definitely plan to get into when $$ permits.
He came up with a hell of an action. AI has actually gone back to a bolt like this, with six lugs. This is Coopermatch CISM. If I had the cash when these rare puppies came up for sale I would have bought the second in a walnut stock as a 5 round repeater. Trigger is a little odd, but breaks clean at about 2# once both stages stack. The rail is Ti and we made it so I could stop using that ridiculous one piece that is worthless for prone and not repeatable when switching to irons. It sports a homemade 4 way buttplate now too. Very light with the laminate pine stock, even with the embedded aluminum bedding block and four action screws
One just sold at Fultons, Bisley. They don't fetch much money. I believe CCRS at Bisley have 6 in total that they issue to Military Cadets for Rifle Meetings ( Imperial).
bolt lift isn't bad as long as you account for it with your loads. My "go to" action right now is the Barnard P. I don't think you can beat them for the money unless you need a repeater, which you don't for Palma or Any Rifle. Here is my Palma rig before I rubbed in 30 coats of oil and another 10 coats of wax. That stock is the only thing that can make the action look good though. Tanks with exellent triggers but not real pretty.
Thanks for replying yall. I know this aint exactly vintage sniper stuff but I love those specialized target rifles. Anyone running a Anschutz 3 position style stock or similar in tactical matches? I know John Whidden uses one in LR prone.. otherwise closest I can think of would be some dudes runing the Eliseos. Say any of yall ever handled an Eliseo tubegun? Opinions?
Here's one we forgot:
The Sig 550. Chambered in a TRUE 1600m (one mile...give or take a couple inches). And, capable of pew, pew pewing your way out of a bad situation. The design is very close to that of the PSG-1, but, as noted it's in 7.5 Swiss. Power-wise it's close to the 7.62X51 NATO, but with a way more efficient bullet.
The Sig 550. Chambered in a TRUE 1600m (one mile...give or take a couple inches). And, capable of pew, pew pewing your way out of a bad situation. The design is very close to that of the PSG-1, but, as noted it's in 7.5 Swiss. Power-wise it's close to the 7.62X51 NATO, but with a way more efficient bullet.
For those wishing to see what a Winchester Model 51 was, it appears to be a civilian variant ( w/some nice modifications) of the P-14/U.S. Model of 1917. There are features of both rifles included in it's manufacture. Due to this statement, and no record specifically of what was produced, it seems the 24 rifles could have been chambered as .30-06, "magnums" (H&H?), or .303 British? In any case, it seems the rifles we're destined for the Winchester heirarchy and that would be how they were to be marketed. But, boiling it down, they were just a fancy P-14/U.S. 1917...pretty much the same thing as a Remington model 30.
The win. model 51 was unique in that it was set up for both a scope and backup sights. Something the Rem model 30 did not come with.
All rifles were made in 1919. After which the project was dropped. No doubt because after WWI, war reparations allowed American companies to produce copies of the Mauser rifle with little to no royalties being paid. Czechoslovakia was also a country that took full advantage of this...at least until their annexation. But, I digress. Here is a write-up on the Winchester model 51:
Okay...so it didn't come through...try again tomorrow.
The win. model 51 was unique in that it was set up for both a scope and backup sights. Something the Rem model 30 did not come with.
All rifles were made in 1919. After which the project was dropped. No doubt because after WWI, war reparations allowed American companies to produce copies of the Mauser rifle with little to no royalties being paid. Czechoslovakia was also a country that took full advantage of this...at least until their annexation. But, I digress. Here is a write-up on the Winchester model 51:
Okay...so it didn't come through...try again tomorrow.
I want to love the Sig550, but alas I have never seen one in person and the Swiss have a unique was of staying out of shit, so we have no idea how it will hold up.
when it comes down yep pure kills, I don't think anything in the world ever produced (maybe every other sniper rifle combined) can match the Mosin with a 4x PU scope. I also don't think anyone would argue it's no slick range queen, but when targets of opportunity were there the rifle got the job done with shooters I wouldn't consider professionally trained.
the Elisio stock is nothing like the Anschutz. It's more like a really heavy AR.
You want a little tactical Ninja shit combined with target shooting? Gary Hudson added an a Anschutz precise cheek piece and made it into the Palma 20 with this last year. Note the color, it wasn't available last year
when it comes down yep pure kills, I don't think anything in the world ever produced (maybe every other sniper rifle combined) can match the Mosin with a 4x PU scope. I also don't think anyone would argue it's no slick range queen, but when targets of opportunity were there the rifle got the job done with shooters I wouldn't consider professionally trained.
the Elisio stock is nothing like the Anschutz. It's more like a really heavy AR.
You want a little tactical Ninja shit combined with target shooting? Gary Hudson added an a Anschutz precise cheek piece and made it into the Palma 20 with this last year. Note the color, it wasn't available last year
I'd have to agree that the Sig 550 falls in the same category as the Swede M41B. Neither survived a combat tour. However, IMO, it's close enough in design to the G-3/PSG-1 (even though pre-dating the latter by 15 years) that the design has been proven in combat. The real advantage as a precision rifle, is that it uses GP-11 instead of 7.62. The efficiency of 7.5 bullet over our 175 SMK is astounding.
And, yeah the other thing about an accurate rifle is that the shooter can 'cuddle' with the rifle. The Sig 550 tends to give the feeling of a castaway space turd. Just cold unfeeling metal with nothing comfortable to hang on to.
FWIW, I'm loving the posts and pics you and Buffalo are putting up with competition rifles. In a lot of cases they have the features a sniper rifle should have. I probably shouldn't repeat myself about the lack of changes needed. Lol
And, yeah the other thing about an accurate rifle is that the shooter can 'cuddle' with the rifle. The Sig 550 tends to give the feeling of a castaway space turd. Just cold unfeeling metal with nothing comfortable to hang on to.
FWIW, I'm loving the posts and pics you and Buffalo are putting up with competition rifles. In a lot of cases they have the features a sniper rifle should have. I probably shouldn't repeat myself about the lack of changes needed
. Lol
Mr Todd didnt you say somethig about the Swiss possibly using the 6.5x47 in a sniper? That would be one accurate SOB. Bout like running a 6 Dasher in a sniper LOL a fckn military rifle capable of groups in the 1s. The 6.5x47 was developed in conjunction with Grunig & Elmiger. Talking to Mr Chad Dixon, G&E's current triggers are some of the best on the planet.
FatBoy what competition/CoF would you say gave you the best practice/most improvement in wind reading ability and overall most improvement in marksmanship out of every style youve shot? I remember reading an interview with Jerry Tierney after he cleaned up in long range benchrest and he credited Palma with giving him such skill but then again most people aint no Jerry Tierney...
Also, that bedding piece the Swiss use between the barrel/action.. Im guessing the tenon goes all the way through and into the action? Does the bolt lock into the barrel on those rifles or are there lug abutments in the action?
FatBoy what competition/CoF would you say gave you the best practice/most improvement in wind reading ability and overall most improvement in marksmanship out of every style youve shot? I remember reading an interview with Jerry Tierney after he cleaned up in long range benchrest and he credited Palma with giving him such skill but then again most people aint no Jerry Tierney...
Also, that bedding piece the Swiss use between the barrel/action.. Im guessing the tenon goes all the way through and into the action? Does the bolt lock into the barrel on those rifles or are there lug abutments in the action?
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I shoot 6.5x284 because I can't read wind for shit
What your asking is two different beasts IMO. A 22lr shooting indoor 50y 3 position small bore probably gave me more pure marksmanship training than all the military ranges I shot on and 16+ years as a Highpower high master. We were DIV3 Champs the last year I shot on the team (89 or 90) and our top shooter, Lynn Mosier got a full ride to DePaul I think. She was SO much better than I ever was.
best wind? No question, F Class 1k with a 6br. The rifle is capable of holding 2-3" at 1k for elevation and at 16# it only lobes about 3/4" when fired. That pretty much takes your mechanics out so you have to make a good wind call and execute before it changes. If yof plot hire shots eventually you'll start to notice trends and really a good SWAG is the most many of us will ever be good at.
I love my palma rifle and the challange of trying to keep that 155 in the 10 ring but you have so much going on with position, shot execution, sight alignment that a lot of the time I have no idea why I leaked one out. That said, I'm no Jerry Tierney.
What your asking is two different beasts IMO. A 22lr shooting indoor 50y 3 position small bore probably gave me more pure marksmanship training than all the military ranges I shot on and 16+ years as a Highpower high master. We were DIV3 Champs the last year I shot on the team (89 or 90) and our top shooter, Lynn Mosier got a full ride to DePaul I think. She was SO much better than I ever was.
best wind? No question, F Class 1k with a 6br. The rifle is capable of holding 2-3" at 1k for elevation and at 16# it only lobes about 3/4" when fired. That pretty much takes your mechanics out so you have to make a good wind call and execute before it changes. If yof plot hire shots eventually you'll start to notice trends and really a good SWAG is the most many of us will ever be good at.
I love my palma rifle and the challange of trying to keep that 155 in the 10 ring but you have so much going on with position, shot execution, sight alignment that a lot of the time I have no idea why I leaked one out. That said, I'm no Jerry Tierney.
I'd have to agree that the Sig 550 falls in the same category as the Swede M41B. Neither survived a combat tour. However, IMO, it's close enough in design to the G-3/PSG-1 (even though pre-dating the latter by 15 years) that the design has been proven in combat. The real advantage as a precision rifle, is that it uses GP-11 instead of 7.62. The efficiency of 7.5 bullet over our 175 SMK is astounding.
And, yeah the other thing about an accurate rifle is that the shooter can 'cuddle' with the rifle. The Sig 550 tends to give the feeling of a castaway space turd. Just cold unfeeling metal with nothing comfortable to hang on to.
I would love to get my hands on a 550. IIRC two SGs came up for sale stateside a year or two back. Both on 223. I remember the neighborhood of $16,000 each but I have slept since then so....
I recall thinking at the time I could build a nice mk12 and buy a decent used truck for what that 550 cost.
Ha ha Fatboy, no doubt WE can shoot pretty good with what we've got without spending 16K! I am NOT winning contests , though.
On the flip side though, many of us have been trying to balance the scales, so to speak with wind vs. drop cartritdges/loads. I'm betting soon we'll see tight twisted .270 barrels, and bullets, to split the difference in 6.5 vs. 7mm's.
On the flip side though, many of us have been trying to balance the scales, so to speak with wind vs. drop cartritdges/loads. I'm betting soon we'll see tight twisted .270 barrels, and bullets, to split the difference in 6.5 vs. 7mm's.
I agree. When I first started shooting long range '01 the guy who got me access shot a push feed m70 in a Dunlop stock chambered up in 270. He was ahead of his time, as where the guys who shot 243win.
I'd like to see a "better" cartdridge for the US forces at large. I think maybe the Brit's were onto something with their 7mm testing. What I see doesn't encourage me. When NATO countries can't or won't even pay their agreed dues, they aren't going to retool their entire armed forces and retrain them to shoot something that might have a touch of recoil.
I'd like to see a "better" cartdridge for the US forces at large. I think maybe the Brit's were onto something with their 7mm testing. What I see doesn't encourage me. When NATO countries can't or won't even pay their agreed dues, they aren't going to retool their entire armed forces and retrain them to shoot something that might have a touch of recoil.
Since the Elisio came up, here is my daughter shooting her Barnard P in 6BR. It currentry wears a 6 Dasher Norma barrel and a 15x NXS but she has a Phoenix rear and Rightsite front for iron sight matches.
that's Oak Ridge for anyone who doesn't recognise it. If you live east of Brownville TX and haven't been here you're missing out.
that's Oak Ridge for anyone who doesn't recognise it. If you live east of Brownville TX and haven't been here you're missing out.
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Better cartridge for the US...I'd like to see some good ole American 1/4 bore/ based off Dasher with some .65 BC 130's going 2750 fps.
Those are some cool old rifle you guys posted.
Swiss K31 so far is my favorite old rifle. Mine never got scoped.
Those are some cool old rifle you guys posted.
Swiss K31 so far is my favorite old rifle. Mine never got scoped.
I used to get bullets from Wildcat (Richard Graves) that we're like that, 125's, 130's, and 142's. I was about to do them justice by getting a 1-8" twist barrel. But, that was when he sold the bullet business. The new business has yet to sell any bullets as far as I know. Anyhow the 125's and 130's stabilized out of a 1-10. The 130's not always and not through transonic.
Funny thing though tests were done in the 1920's as to what would work best as an effective and lightweight/less recoil than the 30-06. The winner was the .250-3000 Savage firing a 90 grain bullet. Gen. Douglas McArthur put and end to that whole thing in 1929. But, yeah with a maximized bullet, the 1/4 bore would be an excellent replacement.
Mine had
<img src="https://ptosis.ch/img/guns/k31/2017-03-01-alu-proto-final/k31-proto-2.1-3.jpg" />
The Wildcats were damn impressive bullets. IIRC they had a ~265gr aluminum tipped .338 that looked to have some crazy potential. Cutting Edge and WTC also have some sweet bullets. AFAIK Matrix still makes their 160gr 6.5mm. sandwarrior keep your eyes peeled for the new Lehigh 92gr 6mm Controlled Chaos soon to hit the market. Looks pretty interesting for a hunting round.
Also, say Mr Todd I been having trouble finding info on it. I know you like the Mausers and about the only thing I can find about the action is picture showing its CRF, do you know much about the Savage Model 1920? Havent heard about it before but from the pics it looks like it maybe a short action? Ive read Germany had mini-Mausers going way back but if the 1920 is SA, that must be just about the first short action CONUS has ever seen?? I could be wrong though and the picture is just deceiving. Beautiful rifle though. Ill be damned if I dont eventually own a nice pre-1950 built custom Mauser/M70/1903/etc built old school style with peep sights by some gunsmith way back when. Such classy rifles.
It's been a long time since I handled a 1920. And, I have to say at the time I did, I didn't even know what to think or ask about them. Something I read since that time is they were basically the first "round action" copy of the Mauser. (my phukin' phone and it's phukin' spell check are really starting to piss me off)
Made at a time when the model 99 was really gaining notoriety. Especially with the introduction of the .300 Savage(1920). They sold okay, but not like the 99. They eventually got dropped and/or morphed into the 340 (w/models between).
Made at a time when the model 99 was really gaining notoriety. Especially with the introduction of the .300 Savage(1920). They sold okay, but not like the 99. They eventually got dropped and/or morphed into the 340 (w/models between).
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Interesting historic info, thanks.
If Berger were to come out with a high BC 25 cal hybrid I'd build something around it just because. Maybe I'll get another K31 and do a 25x55 cal wildcat using that fancy stock ptosis has.There's one at the pawn shop with a action that won't open, if it's not damaged that would be a fun project and I could get it cheap.
Curious what sort of chassis this K31 is in.
I have two, I specifically bought a second to keep one historically accurate and then build the second into a custom.
Has yet to happen...but the rifle is so damn impressive that I need to make it happen one of these days.
Steve123, Rock Solid Industries (RSI) is supposed (key word) to be releasing a 10 round magazine sometime this year for the K31. But it has yet to happen....and was announced over a year ago....
I think I would have to say the Swiss ZFK55 does it for me. Some of the engineering that went into the K31 straight pull was just genious, like the rotated receiver so you could still use the strippers. The K31 was no slouch in the accuracy department, and the ZFK55 just builds on that. I would love to get my hands on one someday.
svthuh,
Can you explain this bit of kit a little? The scope? Goods/bads? The carrying case? unroll the satchell and show what's in it? The muzzle break? Anything else done special to this rifle? Were there any hi-cap mags made in secret for it?
Can you explain this bit of kit a little? The scope? Goods/bads? The carrying case? unroll the satchell and show what's in it? The muzzle break? Anything else done special to this rifle? Were there any hi-cap mags made in secret for it?
Thats not my rifle. I wish it were. If I had the cash, I would pick one up in a heartbeat.
More detailed photos of that particular rifle here: http://www.swissdagger.com/zfk55_3.htm
More general info on the ZFK55 here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zfk55
In regards to your question about the mags though, it was actually designed to be loaded from the standard K31 reinforced cardboard stripper clips. The action was actually roatated slightly so the stripper clips would clear the scope when charging the rifle. The Swiss may not have fought in any wars, but that doesnt mean they arent familiar with the art of warfare.
I've got one of those stripper clips. Didn't know they rotated the rifle slightly so they'd work with the scope. Great idea considering how many countries DIDN'T do that.
I gotta say too, whether one likes the ZFK-55 or the Sig-550, the round itself, specifically the bullet, is a big reason why both are top choices.
Along that same line of thinking, the No.4T/L42 gets an honorable mention. Not so much for rifles, but for the Mk. VIII ammunition it used. While less powerful than the 30-06, it had a much more efficient bullet capable of remaining stable through the transonic. German WWII 7.92 (198gr.) does this also.
I gotta say too, whether one likes the ZFK-55 or the Sig-550, the round itself, specifically the bullet, is a big reason why both are top choices.
Along that same line of thinking, the No.4T/L42 gets an honorable mention. Not so much for rifles, but for the Mk. VIII ammunition it used. While less powerful than the 30-06, it had a much more efficient bullet capable of remaining stable through the transonic. German WWII 7.92 (198gr.) does this also.
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From wiki:
- "In 1938 the Mark VIII (Mark VIII and Mark VIIIz) round was approved to obtain greater range from the Vickers machine gun.[20] Slightly heavier than Mk VII bullet at 175 grains (11.3 g), the primary difference was the addition of a boat-tail and more propellant (41 grains of nitrocelluose powder in the case of the Mk VIIIz), giving a muzzle velocity of 2,525–2,900 ft/s (780–884 m/s). As a result, the chamber pressure was significantly higher, at 42,000–60,000 lbf/sq in (approximately 280–414 MPa), depending upon loading, compared to the 39,000 lbf/sq in of the Mark VII round.[21] Cross-sectional images of Mk VIII ammunition indicate that its boat-tail bullet was long and gently tapered, providing a very high ballistic coefficient. The Mark VIII cartridge had a maximum range of approximately 4,500 yd (4,115 m). Mk VIII ammunition was described as being for "All suitably-sighted .303-inch small arms and machine guns" but caused significant bore erosion in weapons formerly using Mk VII cordite, ascribed to the channelling effect of the boat-tail projectile. As a result, it was prohibited from general use with rifles and light machine guns except in emergency.[22] As a consequence of the official prohibition, ordnance personnel reported that every man that could get his hands on Mk VIII ammunition promptly used it in his own rifle."
sandwarrior - do you know approximate BC of the round? Also, "2525-2900 ft/s"..? Holy schit!!! LOL certainly ES wasnt nearly that bad..? What kinda MV could one expect with said round in a No4 Mk1?
And Im guessing the Mk VIII round is the main reason for the Vickers reputation as one of the most accurate MG's of all time at extended ranges? Or was it also/moreso a function of the weapon itself that made it such a awesome long range MG?
- "In 1938 the Mark VIII (Mark VIII and Mark VIIIz) round was approved to obtain greater range from the Vickers machine gun.[20] Slightly heavier than Mk VII bullet at 175 grains (11.3 g), the primary difference was the addition of a boat-tail and more propellant (41 grains of nitrocelluose powder in the case of the Mk VIIIz), giving a muzzle velocity of 2,525–2,900 ft/s (780–884 m/s). As a result, the chamber pressure was significantly higher, at 42,000–60,000 lbf/sq in (approximately 280–414 MPa), depending upon loading, compared to the 39,000 lbf/sq in of the Mark VII round.[21] Cross-sectional images of Mk VIII ammunition indicate that its boat-tail bullet was long and gently tapered, providing a very high ballistic coefficient. The Mark VIII cartridge had a maximum range of approximately 4,500 yd (4,115 m). Mk VIII ammunition was described as being for "All suitably-sighted .303-inch small arms and machine guns" but caused significant bore erosion in weapons formerly using Mk VII cordite, ascribed to the channelling effect of the boat-tail projectile. As a result, it was prohibited from general use with rifles and light machine guns except in emergency.[22] As a consequence of the official prohibition, ordnance personnel reported that every man that could get his hands on Mk VIII ammunition promptly used it in his own rifle."
sandwarrior - do you know approximate BC of the round? Also, "2525-2900 ft/s"..? Holy schit!!! LOL certainly ES wasnt nearly that bad..? What kinda MV could one expect with said round in a No4 Mk1?
And Im guessing the Mk VIII round is the main reason for the Vickers reputation as one of the most accurate MG's of all time at extended ranges? Or was it also/moreso a function of the weapon itself that made it such a awesome long range MG?
I don't know the given BC of the bullet. But, as we had talked about it in sirhr's thread "The Guns of August" a few years ago, about WWI. The ability to rain down fire on the enemy from 3500m accurately means it's no slouch. A big thing that no one accounts for is it's ability to remain stable. High BC is great, but remaining stable gives a lot more range. Without transonic stability, high BC means little. Or, about half as far as you could go.
As to the weapon it needs to be optimized to the round. I haven't looked at it enough to say if it was maximized to the round, as the rifles were. I would say they were based on the known accuracy. That could be a misnomer though if one does not understand the weapon.
As to the weapon it needs to be optimized to the round. I haven't looked at it enough to say if it was maximized to the round, as the rifles were. I would say they were based on the known accuracy. That could be a misnomer though if one does not understand the weapon.
Speaking of the Winchester model 51. Here's a write-up: It's supposed to open with PDF...didn't happen for me.
http://www.vgca.net/education/WinchesterModel51ImperialRifleVer03_2014-06-12.pdf
http://www.vgca.net/education/WinchesterModel51ImperialRifleVer03_2014-06-12.pdf
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