Baddest military action - based target/sniper rifle

[Forgetful Coyote]

Ian stated that the Pederson rifle in 276 P was firing a 125 gr bucket about 2700 fps and that this gun shot and handled better than a Garand. The recoil difference between this and a Garand is obvious. 276 Garand, mag fed or no, would have been the shit!

Garand won for a reason IMO. Requiring coated rounds is a no go when we’ve got millions on the battlefield requiring constant resupply. Toggle action = no good scope mounting option = no M21.

 

[verdugo60]

Garand won for a reason IMO. Requiring coated rounds is a no go when we’ve got millions on the battlefield requiring constant resupply. Toggle action = no good scope mounting option = no M21.

I agree and thought the same thing. That’s why I said a Garand in 276 Pedersen would have been awesome. Garand=no toggle action and thus no coated rounds.

Only downside would have been not having ammo commonality between machine guns and rifles, assuming the machine guns would have been left in 30-06. On the flip side they could have probably done a “carbine” version of the garand and not needed an M-1 Carbine in yet another caliber so they might have gained ammo commonality there.

 

[samnev]

I owned until a few years ago a mint Pederson PB 276 serial # 12. It's my understanding only 13 PB's were made before the change to the reverseible clip. I had the late Robert Faris get me the proper clip from Herb Woodend who at that time was head of the Enfield Patten Room in the UK. Shot the rifle quite a bit and it always functioned flawlessly.

 

[verdugo60]

I owned until a few years ago a mint Pederson PB 276 serial # 12. It's my understanding only 13 PB's were made before the change to the reverseible clip. I had the late Robert Faris get me the proper clip from Herb Woodend who at that time was head of the Enfield Patten Room I the UK. Shot the rifle quite a bit and it always functioned flawlessly.

Did you just have to reload for it? What was your bullet/velocity? I bet that fetched a pretty penny at the auction.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

@buffalowinter @sandwarrior would yall say theres any noticeable difference in accuracy running reformed Lapua 6.5-284 brass in a 7.5 Swiss, versus running true 7.5 brass?

 

[buffalowinter]

Never done it.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Never done it.

You own a Stgw 57 right? Do you think there’s much difference in accuracy with a .308 Stgw 57 vs 7.5 Stgw 57? Both running match ammo/GP 11?

Did the Swiss ever make a sniper variant of the Stgw 57?

 

[buffalowinter]

I've only shot the Stgw 57 with iron sights and these rifles are accurate enough that you can't really compare ammo groups with iron sights. I've since made a copy of the original mount and put a Hensoldt HK scope on it but haven't got around to shooting it again.

My Stgw 57 mount and scope, complete with fake serial number plate.

original mount with Kern scope

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I've only shot the Stgw 57 with iron sights and these rifles are accurate enough that you can't really compare ammo groups with iron sights. I've since made a copy of the original mount and put an HK scope on it but haven't got around to shooting it again.

My Stgw 57 mount and scope, complete with fake serial number plate.
View attachment 7547665

original mount with Kern scopeView attachment 7547667

Oh dang!

 

[verdugo60]

Thought the crew here might appreciate this one.

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Yes, the stock is already in a shorter configuration. The muzzle brake like like a copy of the FG42 and the rifle feels like a 22 when you shoot it due to the brake design. The 4X scope is crystal clear and it's easy to shoot 1 moa out to 300 yards with quality match ammo. Then there's the wonderful Swiss workmanship. I owned 2 of them before I had to sell off my collection as I became a septuagenarian. Didn't want to have to leave my collection for my wife to sell off. I owned most of the sniper rifles mentioned but the K31/ZFK and the M41B were my 2 favorites.

Hello samnev,
Thanks for the information.. Now its understandable, why the Schmidt-Rubin ZfK 55 was s favorite of yours
And thanks for this compliments, too

Have a good time.

 

[Frank Green]

I agree 10000%

The same issues occur in the civilian world as well.

It is almost impossible to find any level of management that understands the 10,000 foot view

They all come in with resumes which they earned and are more than smart enough.

Their knowledge base expands but the implementation of the knowledge on a broad spectrum is difficult for them.

You can have all the protocols and meetings in the world but someone has to sit down and follow “the story the project is trying to tell”

And if you can find one that gets it you can be sure they start their own company with in 10 years because they understand that no one else gets it either

I always joke that I’m not a business owner, I have the worlds largest kindergarten class.

I think the phrase that would fit here well is “book smart and common sense stupid!”

I loved it when I worked at one company years ago and they always had to hire a new engineer fresh out of college! Everything looks good from the book point of view but the dumb son of a bitch would come out and tell us how to assemble something on the line but didn’t have a clue how anything went together or the tools needed to do the job.

Reminds me of the time about 30 years ago when I got to go on a tour at the Harley Davidson engine plant and having knowledge on building engines…..we get to a point in the tour where the manufacturing engineer is showing this new million dollar machine (actually told us it cost them $1M) and how it could torque all the cylinder head bolts down at one time and it could sense the torque on each bolt on the head and to get a even torque on the head one bolt might be torqued to say 77ft lbs but another bolt on the head only needed 76.8 ft lbs. so on and so forth. So when the guy asked if anyone had any questions I had to stick my hand up! He said, “what question do you have?” The machine is really cool and I get what it does…buy why back towards the beginning of the engine assy…do you have a guy beating on the crank and rod assy with a hammer? Am I missing something? Everyone stood there silent for a minute! The look on the guys face was priceless!

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

You own a Stgw 57 right? Do you think there’s much difference in accuracy with a .308 Stgw 57 vs 7.5 Stgw 57? Both running match ammo/GP 11?

Did the Swiss ever make a sniper variant of the Stgw 57?

Hello Forgetful Coyote,

To your second question: because of my semester/age, I should have had the opportunity to shoot it respectively to use it as my service Sniper Rifle. But that didn''t work, no... At the time of my recruit school in 1985 the Swiss Army had eliminated the Sniper generally... . That was a true disappointment to me, and probably others as well.
The mentioned Stgw-Variant with Kern-Telescope was in service then, but not really widely used.. . I didn't see one during my hole service, in different units.. And I would have preferred a clearly more manageable, lighter Schmidt-Rubin-Zfk - meaning Zielfernrohrkarabiner - Telescope-Carbine.
This scoped Stgw 57 wasn't really estimated as a Sniper-Rifle inside CH, according to all this experience here. That was not a true replacement of the ZfK 55... Better rifles were imageable - and necessary, being realistic - and honest.

Luckywise we were not forced to use it in a war... . Good.

And, Pardon me, this miscarriage Putin ambushes the Ucraine - now we have at least one better Zfk
Yes... "Punctual" !

 

[BigKev72]

Being a weirdo Aussie, my favorite is the Lee Enfield No 1 Mk III HT. Tack driving beastie and rare as rockinghorse shit. I had one in my collection back home in Oz. I have only ever seen one more, it was in the Beretta private collection in Italy. Bloody good shooter though.

 

[ReplicaSnipers]

Being a weirdo Aussie, my favorite is the Lee Enfield No 1 Mk III HT. Tack driving beastie and rare as rockinghorse shit. I had one in my collection back home in Oz. I have only ever seen one more, it was in the Beretta private collection in Italy. Bloody good shooter though.

They’re not that rare in Australia. Tack driving? Hmmmmm……nostalgic view?

 

[BigKev72]

They’re not that rare in Australia. Tack driving? Hmmmmm……nostalgic view?

Well, it only took me seven years to find one, in Australia, at the time. As for tack driving, I could routinely shoot a possible at 600 yards with it. There are fuckall rifles out there that will do that of this era, so I would have to stand with the tack driving comment. The usual ballocks of an Internet comment there mate.

 

[sandwarrior]

Well, it only took me seven years to find one, in Australia, at the time. As for tack driving, I could routinely shoot a possible at 600 yards with it. There are fuckall rifles out there that will do that of this era, so I would have to stand with the tack driving comment. The usual ballocks of an Internet comment there mate.

I could say tack driver from a No. 4 "T". Can't say that about any No. 1 I've shot.

 

[ChrisF308]

The SAS soft kill rifle of the 70s , a 22-250 Tikka Finlander

 

[ZG47A]

NZ SAS .220 Swift using Norma factory ammo.

 

[ReplicaSnipers]

Well, it only took me seven years to find one, in Australia, at the time. As for tack driving, I could routinely shoot a possible at 600 yards with it. There are fuckall rifles out there that will do that of this era, so I would have to stand with the tack driving comment. The usual ballocks of an Internet comment there mate.

One just came up today on used guns for $8K AUD that makes it one of the cheapest genuine sniper rifles I’ve ever seen of that era. That’s around the going rate and they come up 3-4x/yr making it not very rare. As for the accuracy, they were sent for trials in the UK up against the 4T and lost comprehensively in accuracy. There are countless sniper rifles of the era more accurate. My Mosin sniper rifles would be more accurate.

 

[ZG47A]

One just came up today on used guns for $8K AUD that makes it one of the cheapest genuine sniper rifles I’ve ever seen of that era. That’s around the going rate and they come up 3-4x/yr making it not very rare. As for the accuracy, they were sent for trials in the UK up against the 4T and lost comprehensively in accuracy. There are countless sniper rifles of the era more accurate. My Mosin sniper rifles would be more accurate.

The Aussie snipers appear to have done far better with the No. 3 Sniper rifles, built on Winchester Pattern 14 rifles.

 

[ReplicaSnipers]

The Aussie snipers appear to have done far better with the No. 3 Sniper rifles, built on Winchester Pattern 14 rifles.

The No.3 T was a very accurate rifle but both it and the No.1 Mk3 HT used WW1 (Pattern 1918) era scopes. This was always going to be a disadvantage over the No.32.

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

The No.3 T was a very accurate rifle but both it and the No.1 Mk3 HT used WW1 (Pattern 1918) era scopes. This was always going to be a disadvantage over the No.32.

Hmmm.. Are there any pics, please ?..
Especially from the No.1 Mk3 HT

 

[ReplicaSnipers]

Hmmm.. Are there any pics, please ?..
Especially from the No.1 Mk3 HT

These two have been up for sale for quite a while probably because they are overpriced imo. They are the high and low mount versions for comparison.

 

[Jamie Hurley]

The USMC M1903A1 Unertl Sniper is easily the sexiest of the sniper rifles, and if it was bad enough for Evans and Knuppel, its the baddest of them all too.

 

[Longrangeprecision762]

In the Revolutionary War, there were a handful of Pennsylvania rifles (jaeger's) that caused a lot of damage in the hands of Morgan.

In the Civil War, the Whitworth's in the hands of CSA riflemen were pretty devastating. So were some of the rifles fielded by Berdan. Largely, I think, C. Sharps.

In WW1, the Ross rifles were pretty highly in-demand (created by my crazy great-uncle Ross... yes, there is a lineage there.)

In WW2, Springfields, Mauser's and Arisaka's...

So is there a most 'badassed? Well, IMHO, that's a pretty stupid term. Sort of Grand Theft Auto comes to history.

But are there some rifles that have played amazing roles in history? Certainly.

Suggest reading my friend Martin Pegler's book "Out of Nowhere -- a History of Military Sniping." That is about the best all-around look at rifles, tactics, etc. of generations of combatants.

I don't believe he uses the term "Badass" anywhere. But can let the reader judge the combination of technology and how well the tactics and technology matched up. From there, you can decide what platforms had the most impact for their time and technology.

It's a badassed book.

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS. I got my badassed and my baddest confused. Pardon my bad ass for not having the most baddest bad-assed post around.

Just ordered a copy. Thank you for the suggestion. It's always good to have a few new books on the shelf for those cold winter days.

- Jon

 

[Longrangeprecision762]

168BTHPM,

If I may ask, what kind of accuracy can you get from the 1903A4? Using modern projectiles? Always kind of interesting to see how well we were building rifles through the years, that when the weak links get brought up to speed, how close they would shoot to what we can build today.

The 1903A4's are quite capable, but still get second place compared to a good shooting 1903 with the 8x scope. The 2.5x scope view below is at 400 yards.

When I first purchased my 1903 for the build I found a silver St. Michael necklace and the below note in the stock tube. Pretty neat.

 

[Charlie112]

The 1903A4's are quite capable, but still get second place compared to a good shooting 1903 with the 8x scope. The 2.5x scope view below is at 400 yards.

When I first purchased my 1903 for the build I found a silver St. Michael necklace and the below note in the stock tube. Pretty neat.

Dam nice!!!️

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

These two have been up for sale for quite a while probably because they are overpriced imo. They are the high and low mount versions for comparison.

Thanks for the pics !
Good night

 

[Longrangeprecision762]

I'm still partial to the Vietnam era M40 and M70 that Carlos and Chuck used.

The 1903A4 still holds a special place in my stable too...

 

[Charger442]

The 1903A4's are quite capable, but still get second place compared to a good shooting 1903 with the 8x scope. The 2.5x scope view below is at 400 yards.

When I first purchased my 1903 for the build I found a silver St. Michael necklace and the below note in the stock tube. Pretty neat.

Specs on the first rifle?

 

[Longrangeprecision762]

Specs on the first rifle?

M40 cloan build on a 6 digit 1966 receiver.

M40 clone build

Hello all, Got an itch to have a M40 clone shooter. -Vietnam era 6 digit receiver -ADL stock with checkering and finish removed. Hand rubbed oil finish applied -Old BDL style bottom metal inleted, refinished, and bedded and then beat up alittle to look the part. -Shilen barrel with the...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

The 1903A4's are quite capable, but still get second place compared to a good shooting 1903 with the 8x scope. The 2.5x scope view below is at 400 yards.

When I first purchased my 1903 for the build I found a silver St. Michael necklace and the below note in the stock tube. Pretty neat.

What a picture-collection :
Great - thanks !

 

[BordrDsordr]

The USMC M1903A1 Unertl Sniper is easily the sexiest of the sniper rifles, and if it was bad enough for Evans and Knuppel, its the baddest of them all too.

View attachment 7952879

That's my Uncle Don on the left. I provided a large portion of photos, letters and material for the Saipan book.