Badlands "Shell Shock" 5.56 - snake oil?

[AwkwardlySocial]

Hey guys, can anyone here explain the difference between the rounds in the video/links below, and normal steel case ammo? Is Badlands just loading extra-hot (maybe dangerously hot) steel-case 5.56 and trying to hype it for higher profit margins? I tried to link the Youtube video to where the host notes that the case is "nickel alloy stainless case," but how metallurgically different is that from...say...Tula or Brown Bear cases, or the steel-case 77gr OTM that AAC was selling a few months ago on the Palmetto State Armory website?

I'm also suspicious of his FGMM 77gr velocity numbers from the 10.3 barrel. He shoots a 5-round group, but shots 2, 3, and 4 are cut from the video, and the last shot is suspiciously higher than the average, while the first shot is suspiciously low. It seems like a fairly extreme spread for that ammunition.

Oh, also: Badlands wants $1.45/round for these "Shell Shock" this 77gr OTM rounds (https://badlandsmunitionsco.com/product/556-nas3-77gr-sierra-match-king/), so the statement at 0:00:15 that it is "the same price as your brass 5.56" is an outright lie. Just one more red flag to call out.

There are probably more nits to pick too, but those are the ones that jumped out at me first. Does this activate anyone else's Spidey senses? Do we have any history/reason to trust that this guy is an honest broker of information? Am I missing a major reason to buy the hype here?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Been wondering this same thing for a while. I don't shoot factory ammo but I'm curious if I can replicate their number, safely, with hybrid cases.

 

[AwkwardlySocial]

Been wondering this same thing for a while. I don't shoot factory ammo but I'm curious if I can replicate their number, safely, with hybrid cases.

If I understand the situation correctly, it's only an extra 50ish fps from 77gr projectiles out of a 10.3" barrel, average, based on the numbers he's showing us (which may or may not be intentionally/unintentionally deceptive). For double to triple the price of current 77gr OTM rounds.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Hey guys, can anyone here explain the difference between the rounds in the video/links below, and normal steel case ammo? Is Badlands just loading extra-hot (maybe dangerously hot) steel-case 5.56 and trying to hype it for higher profit margins? I tried to link the Youtube video to where the host notes that the case is "nickel alloy stainless case," but how metallurgically different is that from...say...Tula or Brown Bear cases, or the steel-case 77gr OTM that AAC was selling a few months ago on the Palmetto State Armory website?

I'm also suspicious of his FGMM 77gr velocity numbers from the 10.3 barrel. He shoots a 5-round group, but shots 2, 3, and 4 are cut from the video, and the last shot is suspiciously higher than the average, while the first shot is suspiciously low. It seems like a fairly extreme spread for that ammunition.

Oh, also: Badlands wants $1.45/round for these "Shell Shock" this 77gr OTM rounds (https://badlandsmunitionsco.com/product/556-nas3-77gr-sierra-match-king/), so the statement at 0:00:15 that it is "the same price as your brass 5.56" is an outright lie. Just one more red flag to call out.

There are probably more nits to pick too, but those are the ones that jumped out at me first. Does this activate anyone else's Spidey senses? Do we have any history/reason to trust that this guy is an honest broker of information? Am I missing a major reason to buy the hype here?

Badlands is one of a couple of companies loading ammo using cases manufactured by Shell Shock Technologies. And yeah, that video is pretty clearly an Advert to Badlands.

You can find more information on the NAS3 case technology on Shell Shock Tech's website here:

https://shellshocktechnologies.com/

A buddy gave me some empty cases to play with, but unfortunately I haven't found time to start experimenting with them yet. So I don't have any direct experience to report, only what others have told me.

From what he and some other friends I considerer knowledgeable have said, getting a 77gr SMK to 2900 fps from an 18" barrel should be doable (and safe). From what I understand this is partly because of increased case capacity, and partly because the case material is stronger than brass.

I'm curious to see how the increased chamber pressure affects the gas system, and whether or not it has any increased wear on parts.

My friend also said the cases don't seem to be reloadable, at least not with standard dies.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Ah. I haven't watched any chrono videos, just looked at the listed velocities from these guys, BlackArc and I think one other place whose name escapes me right now, and it seemed like they all claimed 100-150fps faster than the accepted average for a given bullet weight.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Running the numbers, theoretically, if I shoot this out of my 16" gun, which is currently getting 2675fps from IMI 77 OTM and we up that to 2800 fps (taking the middle ground), it's not THAT impressive. IMI is 4.9 mils to 600 yds, goes transonic around 750 yards, needs 1.0 mil wind deflection in a full value 5 mph wind, and carries 356 ft/lbs of energy at 600. Badlands, going the theoretical 2800 fps needs 4.3 mils to 600 yds, goes transonic at about 800 yds, needs .9 mils wind deflection in the same wind conditions, and carries 400 ft/lbs of energy at 600 yds. So...yeah...all that extra money and velocity equates to a flatter shooting cartridge that'll still get blown around and hits with about the same energy.

I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze honestly compared to simply going to something like a 6.5G, 6ARC, or 6MAX if I needed additional downrange performance.

 

[Bantam1]

I'm sure barrel wear is also accelerated. I know the hybrid stainless cases work and you can get more speed. Like others have said, is it really worth it with 223.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Mk 262 Mod 1 was peak 5.56 77 gr ammunition and anything since seems to be diminishing returns in one form or another, in my opinion. The Badlands NAS3 85gr Match Burners sound interesting and might warrant a closer look.

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

It is definitely not snake oil. blackarc has been making high end ammo with nas3 casings for a couple years and PSA sells bulk ammo with nas3 casings.

Haven't tried any myself but they look like a great option for improving terminal performance at medium range especially for SBRs.

 

[TonyAngel]

I've only had the opportunity to fire a handful of the 80 something grain badlands rounds and wasn't able to chrony it, but it shot accurately out of my 16" Criterion.

I have played around with the Black Arc stuff though. I tend to relegate ammunition to certain rigs that I use for certain tasks.

I picked up 100 rounds of the 77gr Black Arc and 150 rounds of the 53gr V-Max stuff. I got the 77gr stuff for my Mod H inspired 16" rig and the 53gr stuff to run in my 11.5.

The 77s in the 16" criterion hybrid barrel got me 2800ish fps and shot as accurately or better than results I get with either Black Hills or IMI stuff.

The 53gr V-Max out of my 11.5 got me 2900ish fps and shot lights out. The most accurate 50ish grain round I've tried thus far and it was FAST.

Is it worth it? If you roll your own, probably not; but, if you shoot commercial ammo, it might be. The 77s are priced a bit higher than Black Hills, but the 53s are in line with other premium ammo.

Of what I've tried so far, I really like the 53s. I dont plan on shooting my 11.5 beyond 400 and the 53s hit steel with authority at that distance.

I'd like to try the 77s in the 11.5, but I don't see spending $1.40 a round to do what I do with the 11.5. At $1 a round for the 53s, I can see keeping a small stash for the occasional thrill or days when the wind is particularly bad.

 

[nagantguy]

I watched the video OP was talking about - did the same calculation ms as several above have posted , the Juice don’t seem worth the squeeze - at least not in 5.56.

Now I do think hybrid cases are in their infancy and will develop into a promising future based on what some here have posted/ played with/ experimented with.
Could be worth the squeeze in 6.5/308 and up - if the cases could be reloaded multitudes without having to buy a whole new set up press dies shell holders , lube trimmers ect .

 

[TonyAngel]

I just went through my notes from the range day when I was playing around with the Black Arc stuff.

With the 11.5, I get 2750 fps out of M193 and similarly loaded rounds. I got 2900 out of the 53gr Black Arc. My notes tell me that the velocity gain is marginal. Not enough to make a real difference down range.

With the 16", I get something around 2550 out of a typical 77gr 5.56 load, in this case AAC 77gr OTM. The Black Arc got me 2800 fps. You know, to me that seems to be entering the realm of being a meaningful bump in velocity, but at 3x the cost.

Maybe the thinking I expressed above may have been a$$ backwards. It might be worth keeping some of the 77gr Black Arc around for those special occasions when I just need a bit more. Oddly, in my 16", having zero for the 77gr AAC is spot on with the Black Arc at 100. Right on in windage and within a tenth or two on elevation.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

It might be worth keeping some of the 77gr Black Arc around for those special occasions when I just need a bit more. Oddly, in my 16", having zero for the 77gr AAC is spot on with the Black Arc at 100. Right on in windage and within a tenth or two on elevation.

I don't know, every time I think I'm gonna keep something extra spicy around for special occasions I end up being annoyed that I need to develop and use entirely different dope for it, and then when the performance increase is only incrementally better I give up and just go back to one standard heavy bullet load.

 

[ut755ln]

I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze honestly compared to simply going to something like a 6.5G, 6ARC, or 6MAX if I needed additional downrange performance.

That was my solution, 6 ARC upper.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Muzzle velocity sells ammo but BC gets hits.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Muzzle velocity sells ammo but BC gets hits.

Eh, inside 500 yards I'd argue against that.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Haha this is true, I can get hits with crappy 55 gr ball to about 500 but I think they’re mostly marketing this to those pushing small frame AR’s to 600+. The point I was going for is that shills are going to hype the hell out of the velocity but ignore that in terms of wind and ft/lbs it’s not that much better.

 

[bfoosh006]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but as far as reloading the NAS3 cases... I Only see the 9MM cases as reloadable.

No rifle NAS3 cases can be reloaded ?

"No, Shell Tech’s rifle cases are precision-engineered, military-grade ammunition cases and are not designed to be reloaded. Reloading these cases can compromise their performance and safety, so we do not recommend or support reloading them."

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but as far as reloading the NAS3 cases... I Only see the 9MM cases as reloadable.

No rifle NAS3 cases can be reloaded ?

"No, Shell Tech’s rifle cases are precision-engineered, military-grade ammunition cases and are not designed to be reloaded. Reloading these cases can compromise their performance and safety, so we do not recommend or support reloading them."

Yeah, that's my understanding. And I think the 9mm cases may require a special set of dies.

 

[TonyAngel]

Muzzle velocity sells ammo but BC gets hits.

That statement reminded me of something. When I was first looking at the 53gr Black Arc ammo, I wondered why they went with the 53gr vs the 55. The bit of research I did showed that the 53gr has the highest BC (that I could find) of any 50ish grain projectile. Arguably speed and BC for its class.

Still... honestly, I just restocked 77 grain ammo for 500+ shooting. I'm limited to 800 yards. I decided to just go with the 77gr winchester contract overrun stuff. It's a little slow, but its loaded with Barnes Matchburners and is pretty consistent. I'm just shooting at steel anyway. At .70 a round, its a bit easier to stomach.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I'm stocked up on IMI 77 gr myself and need to get some more, the AAC 77 OTM is decent for the cost but slow.

 

[lonestar1845]

No, it's legit. I shot a prs match with my mk12 for fun with the black arc 77's just to test them out. Average velocity was 2870 from an 18" barrel and the accuracy was on par with my mk 262 clones.

 

[MikeMiller]

The advantage of 100fps in 10-12” barrels as I see it is mostly lethality. The 77’s normally just don’t have enough velocity in short barrels for the great stopping power they are known for from 16” and longer barrels

On video he is testing what appears to be Blackhills standard 77 load not the military version which is far faster

No doubt the video is slanted but shows promise.

 

[Jsp556]

Ridgeline shooting at a mile with the black arc and the lrsu guy hitting the milk jug at 1500 with 77gr hand loads. I guess if you want box ammo go for it but the hand loaded 77’s performed well too.

 

[Desert Hawk]

This is certainly interesting, especially if the chamber pressures claimed are true.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'm stocked up on IMI 77 gr myself and need to get some more, the AAC 77 OTM is decent for the cost but slow.

Man, I keep going back and forth on the AAC stuff. I'll try 200 rounds to see how it shoots. If it shoots good, I order more, but then what I get the second time around doesn't shoot like the last stuff I got. I get turned off on it for a while and then I'll get sucked in again by the price. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I prefer to run the IMI 77gr stuff, but that runs around $1.10 or more a round, to my door. The AAC stuff runs around .60 a round to my door. I found a happy medium with the winchester contract overrun stuff. About .71 a round shipped and it's been consistent. I've only had it out to 600 so far, but it did its job. Shooting beyond 600 is a waste of time without a spotter where I go, so I didn't even try. It's always windy out there and holding more windage than elevation is the norm.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I bought 200 rounds of the 77 OTM but I may give the 77 SMK version a try to see if it's any better. To be honest I got the same training value out of Winchester 55 FMJ that I did the AAC 77 OTM. Sure, the accuracy wasn't the same but the slow speed coupled with the high ES, and SD in my 16" SPR meant that any advantage the 77gr projectile had was lost to a 55 gr going 3,050 fps out to 500 yards.

 

[TonyAngel]

Yep. You got that right. In many circumstances, crunching the numbers will show that the heavy weights often don't pay off till you start getting out there.

Some of you may think I'm nuts and it is possible that it's all in my head, but I've found that I've run across some lots of ball ammo that shoots unusually good. I'm not talking about MOA or anything like that, but a pretty consistent 2 MOA or so. Great for steel out to about 400 or so. When I find that stuff, I stack it.

I try to save the heavy stuff for 500+.

Man, I'm feeling the itch to grab a bit more of that Black Arc 53gr. It's kinda fun zingin em at 2900+ out of an 11.5.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Yep. You got that right. In many circumstances, crunching the numbers will show that the heavy weights often don't pay off till you start getting out there.

Some of you may think I'm nuts and it is possible that it's all in my head, but I've found that I've run across some lots of ball ammo that shoots unusually good. I'm not talking about MOA or anything like that, but a pretty consistent 2 MOA or so. Great for steel out to about 400 or so. When I find that stuff, I stack it.

I try to save the heavy stuff for 500+.

Man, I'm feeling the itch to grab a bit more of that Black Arc 53gr. It's kinda fun zingin em at 2900+ out of an 11.5.

I found some M193 like that back before Covid. Several of my chrome lined 556 rifles will stay right around 2 moa with that stuff.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I've seen the same in some batches of PMC Bronze and Winchester white box 55 gr where it was 2-2.5 MOA at 100 in my two SPR's, good enough for banging steel out to 400+.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Yep. You got that right. In many circumstances, crunching the numbers will show that the heavy weights often don't pay off till you start getting out there.

Some of you may think I'm nuts and it is possible that it's all in my head, but I've found that I've run across some lots of ball ammo that shoots unusually good. I'm not talking about MOA or anything like that, but a pretty consistent 2 MOA or so. Great for steel out to about 400 or so. When I find that stuff, I stack it.

Nah, not crazy at all. I'm sure I've posted multiple times on here that up to a point speed beats BC every day. Being a longer range precision oriented forum I think a lot of guys just naturally gravitate towards the heavy bullets and it never occurs to them to give the light stuff a fair shake.

 

[TonyAngel]

Nah, not crazy at all. I'm sure I've posted multiple times on here that up to a point speed beats BC every day. Being a longer range precision oriented forum I think a lot of guys just naturally gravitate towards the heavy bullets and it never occurs to them to give the light stuff a fair shake.

Is there some sort of software out there that can calculate the range at which a particular load with a heavier bullet will meaningfully begin to outperform a load with a lighter bullet?

I've just usually defaulted to heavier rounds because the range I go to for longish distance shooting is very near the Gulf of Mexico and the wind is always blowing. 10-15 mph winds are common and heavier winds happen pretty often.

Geez, I love to shoot. I should start taking a more analytical approach to it. I might get more out of it.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Is there some sort of software out there that can calculate the range at which a particular load with a heavier bullet will meaningfully begin to outperform a load with a lighter bullet?

I've just always used Strelok, which can no longer be downloaded unfortunately, and just manually input speed, BC and bullet weight then compared drop and drift numbers. The extra energy of the heavies becomes apparent fairly early if you actually need your steel to react, but hit probability based on drop/drift usually favors speed over BC a lot further out than most people realize.

 

[cas6969]

Is it really a mono bullet or is that just thumbnail nonsense? (77 and up must be dang long)

 

[TonyAngel]

I've just always used Strelok, which can no longer be downloaded unfortunately, and just manually input speed, BC and bullet weight then compared drop and drift numbers. The extra energy of the heavies becomes apparent fairly early if you actually need your steel to react, but hit probability based on drop/drift usually favors speed over BC a lot further out than most people realize.

Oh, ok. Now I get what you're saying. For purposes of energy, heavy is good earlier on, but for purposes of just hitting the target, lightweights are better than most people think.

I do have strelok. All of my dope starts out based on what it tells me. Lol.

Yeah, I freaked out the last time I got a new phone and found that I couldn't get it through the usual channels. Luckily, I was able to find it, I believe, on Samsungs site.

 

[232593]

Nah, not crazy at all. I'm sure I've posted multiple times on here that up to a point speed beats BC every day. Being a longer range precision oriented forum I think a lot of guys just naturally gravitate towards the heavy bullets and it never occurs to them to give the light stuff a fair shake.

Speed enhances fragmentation. And that is a good thing.

 

[wvfarrier]

I played with the Nas3 in 300blackout and did get a smidge more oomph out of the loads before getting pressure BUT the cases are not reloadable. Only about 1 in 4 or 5 will resize correctly, when I contacted SS about it they responded with "Oh yeah, we put that in our FAQ section".

I was able to get a 125 TMK up to 2475fps and the Speer 150 Gameking to 2360fps from a 16" barrel.

My buddy runs them quite a bit hotter in a Rem 700 Tac. IIRC he got the 150s to close to 2500fps before he blew some primers