Barrel fouling and other Musings and WTF moments.

[supercorndogs]

How many rounds is it taking your barrels to settle back in after cleaning? I am used to 5-10, but I put an MK5 on my 6.5 creed, cleaned it up and went to the range. The rifle was shooting 1.5 to 2 moa for the next 25 rounds. I thought the MK5 was not tracking or holding zero as the bullets wandered around the target, and seemed to make a big POI shift when I would dial, or take 1 shot before the POI would change after dialing. I went home and switched scopes, and headed back to range this morning. I put the MK5 on my 223, zeroed it then shot a 5 shot center bullseye 1/2 moa group dialing up 10 mils and back to zero between each shot.

I pulled out the 6.5 creed with the LRHS back on it, and shot a 5 shot about 1.5 MOA to confirm it was a rifle problem. I decided to make it 10 and the next 5 went into the same hole. So I fired some more , it went 6 into 1 hole at the same POI as the last 5 then dropped one about an inch low. My plan was to pull the barrel until the last 10 rounds. Then I felt like everything was OK until the last shot. The barrel has about 300rds on it.

Load is 41.6 of H4350 140 ELD Hornady brass CCI250 .02 off the lands 2724 fps.

Lets hear your stories, ever had one take 30+ rounds to settle down? Do you think maybe its a bullet problem? Or is the barrel possibly very rough. This barrel seems to need some dry patches after every shooting session or the first 10 rounds shoot little more than 1 MOA. I think its what made me give up on the 143 ELD-x and move to 140 ELD-m. I would go out with 15 for a length test, the first 10 would be crap, the last would be OK. I would load 10 of that to confirm and it would be crap.

Please consider this an open discussion and feel free to respond with out answering any the questions.

 

[TheBoctor]

I have a couple barrels that really don't settle in that much, like first round would be a 1" flier and then everything else would group right in line. I have a 7RM hunting rifle that really doesn't begin to settle down until 25 rds through it, and is shooting reliably at 30 rds. Most seem to foul in in that 3-5 shot range though.I always chalked it up each gun being different but I'd be interested to know what actually causes the discrepency.

 

[Snuby642]

I find each barrel to be different with soft lead 22 lr taking about 20 and some of my 223 taking only 3 shots.

I have a 6.5g that has seemed to take only one fouler last few times out.

So many variables, it is more art than science to me.

 

[Steel head]

Just a couple of shots on a decent condition barrel.
More shots required when the barrel is in clean me More mode later in life.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

Sighting in my .223 switch lug after changing from a 25 CM barrel. Cleaned the barrel. 1st group was a huge WTF moment. Next 5 was more expected. I can only explain 5% of what happens when I shoot, the rest is voodoo.

 

[chevy_man]

I had one that had visible rust pitting. It settled down in 10 shots from a bare steel clean.

I'd like to see a bore scope just for reference and curiosity.

 

[diggler1833]

I had a factory Remington 5R that took 20 rounds or so to foul in after a cleaning and shoot well again. That rifle absolutely hammered with so many reloading combinations...and like an ass I rebarreled it in .260 and eventually sold it off.

It was my first real entry into the bolt gun world, and I made a lot of mistakes with it...like thoroughly cleaning the bore after every range session.

I'd take 50 rounds to the range (I was stationed in NC at the time) and shoot 3-4 mediocre groups, and then the rifle would settle down and I'd bang out several 5 shot groups in the 1/2 MOA or a bit better range.

I still have the targets in my reloading data binder in the shop. I know that I had at least four handload recipes that shot sub 1/2 MOA for that rifle.

That rifle taught me about bore cleaning as well as leaving shit alone.

 

[mountainman308]

This happened to me recently. I was forced to switch projectile types from traditional jacketed bullets to copper alloy monoliths. I cleaned the barrel, loaded up a mag, and my 1/2 MOA rifle immediately turned into a 1 3/4 MOA or worse rifle. It took 50 rounds and another cleaning for it to settle down. Now it’s back to being a 1/2 minute rifle with the monoliths.

 

[rustyinbend]

You guys have convinced me to take my 224-Valkyrie build out and keep shooting until it settles down ... or until I run out of ammo.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Vudoo .22 takes about 10-20 for a clean barrel. Bartlein-barreled .223 and 6.5s take maybe 5-10.

The thing that drives me crazy is wandering zero and velocity - shoot a 5 shot 1/3 to 1/2 MOA group, it's centered >here< then shoot five more, it's centered >there< half or quarter inch away. Same box of ammo shoots 2775 fps 10-shot average today, 2755 tomorrow with similar climate conditions.

Since it's happened with every rifle/optic in every caliber I've owned (seven at quick count), it ain't equipment. It must be cosmic rays.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

You guys have convinced me to take my 224-Valkyrie build out and keep shooting until it settles down ... or until I run out of ammo.

On my .224 I clean the crown every range session because under my break gets carbon build up and it will easily turn my 1/2 moa load into 1 1/2 moa . Using CFE223

 

[supercorndogs]

On my .224 I clean the crown every range session because under my break gets carbon build up and it will easily turn my 1/2 moa load into 1 1/2 moa . Using CFE223

You ever try running a couple dry patches? I wonder if I have the same thing going on under the QD for my suppressor. And maybe it doesn't even have much to do with the barrel.

 

[morganlamprecht]

ive had 2 barrels do similar to what you described in the OP...both at what i would consider premature death round counts for the calibers, but closer to 900 rounds

1, similar story to yours except i was shooting it when it went to crap with a couple witnesses...barrel was always a 3/4moa at worst barrel...shot a bunch of 1/2 and some ragged holes, never anything huge, clean or dirty...at the range with some buddies verifying some things, first group right @ 1/2 moa, next group 4 of the same, 1 flyer...blamed myself...next group 1"+, next group 1"+....from then on for another 100-150 rounds of various loads i had known to shoot well, cleaning, load tweaks, scope changes, recrowns, etc...it never consistently came back...at one point, it fired 5 rounds into 1 hole, then the next hit like 1" high left, next 3 one hole again...next group was 3 good with 2 wild fliers.....another trip out, i shot a couple touching at 100, then couple tight, same splash at 400...then couple side by side @ 800...thought its good.....then came back to 100 before i left and the first shot hit 1" left...next shot clipped the dot on the right side

finally gave up, went to the shop and had a new bart spun up...all issues gone, right back to how i expect it to shoot

2, just kinda went...after a match, cleaned, went to check zero before another match a few weeks later, would barely hold 1" ...on a barrel that had always shot lights out....same kinda as above except it never seemed to shoot any better...tried messing with the load, cleaning, etc...best it would do was around 3/4-1.25"...again, went got a new barrel spun...first 8 rounds of the same ammo out of the new barrel, cover with a dime...then shot 2 sub 2.5" 5 shot groups @ 400 w/ 130 and 144 berger's....followed up with a couple 3-6" groups at 800

i usually dont shoot a ton of groups at 100, unless zero'ing or i have a problem im checking...with my good barrels, ive taken them home, cleaned, then pushed some dry patches and gone back out to 400 and they dont miss the water line or throw shots...ive done this routine 5 trips with 2 different barrels recently and the first shots @ 400 are spot on...on the labR, the first shot velocity may be off slightly, but its usually not enough to even move your dope .1 @ 400, shots 2 or 3 thru 5 fall right back in

 

[supercorndogs]

I have another barrel to check the ammo with. This is a LV contour to hunt with, but its showed promise as well as being a problem child. I guess I should stab another barrel on and check the ammo. I know the Criterion I have doesn't do this.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

You ever try running a couple dry patches? I wonder if I have the same thing going on under the QD for my suppressor. And maybe it doesn't even have much to do with the barrel.

I’ll throw a few wet patches with old school windex but that’s it. This is 100 rounds. Nasty!

 

[seanh]

For those that are having crampy groups after cleaning, what was the gun shooting like before you cleaned? If it was going to crap I can understand cleaning but if it's shooting well why are you cleaning it?

My old PSS used to take about a dozen rounds to settle after cleaning. I would get about 60 to 75 shots after that and then it would start opening up. When I learn to just clean the carbon ring and maybe half the copper, I was able to knock that down to maybe a half dozen shots.

After rebarreling with a bartline I can get around 300 shots or so before it starts opening up. Clean the carbon ring and a couple of swipes with a wet patch and I'm good... less than five shots to settle.

My old 40x, made in the mid-sixties, it doesn't seem to matter if I clean it or not it just freaking shoots. Similar with my Russian biathlon trainer. Point of impact shift but no real change in group size that I could see.

But I have found out over the years is that barrels are just like kids... They have their own personalities. But they're all the same and this one regard... The hate being a fucking cleaned

 

[frank320]

For my semi-autos and AR rifles, I clean after every outing - the carbon build up everywhere just bugs the hell out of me. Furthermore, since the accuracy standard for a semi-auto rifle is not as high as my bolt rifles, I can deal with some variability on shot groups in the initial bursts of fire before they settle down when push comes to shove - as long as the rifle does not jam on me due to carbon build up around the bolt carrier.

For bolt guns, I only clean if groups start opening up. All my bolt guns are in a "ready-to-go" state. If I need to grab a rifle to go on a hunt, shoot something or the range(where cold bore first shot matters), the last thing i want to do is first go to the range and lay down copper in the barrel, get it into equilibrium state, whatever number of rounds that might take, THEN go do what needs to be done - that is just not realistic. I just want to be able to grab and go, and repeat till the groups start opening up.

If you cannot trust the accuracy of your cold bore first shot , nor trust your DOPE from last outing, without first laying down copper, what is the point?

 

[Frank Green]

Guys a ton of variables like has been mentioned. Some examples....

Keep in mind the barrel is a consumable!

After cleaning the barrel and before you shoot it.....did you dry patch it out competely? So no residual oil or solvent in the barrel? If so this easily could explain your fliers when you start shooting.

Like was mentioned earlier the one guy went from a conventional jacketed bullet to solids. Different types of bullets, different lots etc...can behave differently. Some can foul more than others etc.......

Climate conditions....

Shooter.....

Could be the barrel.....

Scope wandering....

Cleaning method and types of cleaners being used.....

How many rounds on the barrel? Not just in between cleanings but overall?

Ammo.....either it being box ammo or handloads. What is the ammo/bullets capability of holding a given accuracy spec.? If the ammo per say is only a .5 to .7moa capable....now throw in some of these other factors....and your accuracy could even be less.

Caliber the rifle is chambered in. Some calibers are more finicky/picky per say than other calibers.

Stock? Bedding....chassis effecting things.

You can almost add whatever you want to the list. Again a lot of variables.

I tell guys this. Know your rifle/gun. It will tell you what is going on per say but you have to learn how to read it. When that 308win barrel is new.....yep you could get 300-500 rounds out of it in between cleanings and it will hold .5moa but once that barrel has say around 2500 rounds on it....it'll still hold .5moa but will only do it for a 150 rounds. The barrel will wear over time and it will change. You have to learn how to read it. Now instead of 308win.....let's make your 30cal gun a 300 Norma (I picked 300 Norma at random....just throwing in a big mag round into the mix). That barrel will change really fast and or should I say not hold accuracy for as long of a period of time vs. that 308win. Not to mention barrel life.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[seanh]

Frank, it's people like you that coming to sites like this that cause all kinds of problems... Confusing the issue with facts. I did that crap when I was married and after many a nights on the couch, I've tried to stop doing that... LOL ( apparently it causes this thing called butthurt)

 

[Frank Green]

Frank, it's people like you that coming to sites like this that cause all kinds of problems... Confusing the issue with facts. I did that crap when I was married and after many a nights on the couch, I've tried to stop doing that... LOL ( apparently it causes this thing called butthurt)

That was funny!

 

[Longshot231]

For those that are having crampy groups after cleaning, what was the gun shooting like before you cleaned? If it was going to crap I can understand cleaning but if it's shooting well why are you cleaning it?

My old PSS used to take about a dozen rounds to settle after cleaning. I would get about 60 to 75 shots after that and then it would start opening up. When I learn to just clean the carbon ring and maybe half the copper, I was able to knock that down to maybe a half dozen shots.

After rebarreling with a bartline I can get around 300 shots or so before it starts opening up. Clean the carbon ring and a couple of swipes with a wet patch and I'm good... less than five shots to settle.

My old 40x, made in the mid-sixties, it doesn't seem to matter if I clean it or not it just freaking shoots. Similar with my Russian biathlon trainer. Point of impact shift but no real change in group size that I could see.

But I have found out over the years is that barrels are just like kids... They have their own personalities. But they're all the same and this one regard... The hate being a fucking cleaned

Just out of curiosity; what technique are you using to clean the carbon ring?

I have similar experiences for other calibers.

 

[supercorndogs]

The reason you clean it before it goes to crap, is so that it doesn't go to crap on you at the worst possible time. My experience with 6.5 and 6 mm overbore cartridges is, borrowed time getting close to 200 on average. If you have something to do with it, might as well clean it down and foul it again. Brushing it and running some patches a little early is not going to wear out.

Great post by Frank Green, don't go straight to the barrel, until you have run down everything else.

I suspect this chamber was cut on an old wore out lathe, with an ole wore reamer, and all the chatter is what causes the dry patching to be needed. Everything but the MK5 and the new lot of 140s here has burned out a couple barrels already.

 

[seanh]

Just out of curiosity; what technique are you using to clean the carbon ring?

I have similar experiences for other calibers.

Nylon chamber brush soaked in CLR...run it in, twist a few times, let sit about 10- 15 minutes, dry patch around dry chamber brush...repeat as necessary. Once ring is clean use alcohol on patches to remove any lingering CLR.

 

[HousePlant]

The secret is to use shitty factory ammo for a box to remove all chance of anxiety...

 

[Longshot231]

Nylon chamber brush soaked in CLR...run it in, twist a few times, let sit about 10- 15 minutes, dry patch around dry chamber brush...repeat as necessary. Once ring is clean use alcohol on patches to remove any lingering CLR.

Thanks. I had not ever heard of that method but will give it a try.

 

[HousePlant]

Added bonus of using CLR, it'll probably kill the COVID.

 

[supercorndogs]

So, yesterday, I decided to go out and shoot some 100y groups with this barrel, to confirm it is fouled and will shoot now. To keep it shooting I ran dry patch down the barrel. Well 85% of the way down the barrel. I might order a teslong bore scope. The patch stuck right about where it always seems rough and tight while cleaning. Maybe I can hack this barrel to 18" or 16" and get rid of the problem area. But thats not the whole story.

I grabbed a 21" 6mm creed barrel from the safe{X-caliber 1-8 blank} I chose an arbitrary charge of H4350 below book max of 40.4g, using starline brass and a Hornady 105 HPBT at 2.79-2.8. I fired three rounds to zero, then put on the chronograph for 10 more.



Kinda slow LOL,

wasting expensive components down a shit barrel.