In any case there are some 'fact stretching' chapters in the vol.3 , the best was the TOP GUN where it seems that methodology and sample size and type were adjusted considerably to fit the predetermined thesis.
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Barrel Tuners and Bryan Litz’s vol. 3
- Thread starter category_theory
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“For decreasing group size, it appears that even an "out of tune" tuner is better than no tuner at all. ” (from his conclusion)
In timintex’s defense, he’s been pretty clear lately about believing the effect is only in the vertical. But he’s just one view from many declaring different ways of tuning. It’s not hard to see where all the confusion and different claims come from and undercuts your argument to claim otherwise.
The ATS statement is true meaning you can tune to the maximum potential of that system no where does it say it will be better .
no , I am just explaining what they mean . You are interpreting incorrectly, i have talked in length with the manufacturers about this very subject. You can not just say there is a underlying meaning from a statement that never says it will better accuracy than without . That is only a assumption . That is not what has been claimed at least in the case of the ATS and Eric’s statement . Who made the third statement ?
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It clearly states that your rifle and ammo will shoot better through the use of their product (the tuner), then without.
This is also consistent with public statements made by some of these individuals (AH, EC and others).
It's pretty clear. The claims are that you will achieve the last bit of precision potential (shooting smaller groups) with their product (tuner). Making the direct inference that level of precision is not available without said product.
I don't think their claims are that ambiguous in intent.
I will inform all of the tuner manufacturers about this thread and they can defend their statements .
That's your interpretation - the statements that were quoted do not state that.
The statements being made by these manufacturers is that you will unlock more precision using their product (a tuner), then without. That inference is incredibly clear.
Timintx
The guys posting don't know your a benchrest shooter and you would throw your barrel away if it shot groups like the ones they find amazingly small.
Alot of posters here don't reload as well so to them a 3/8 group rarely if ever happens.
I think the disconnect is stemming from manufacturers making tuners to aid the general public just like Browning did with the BOSS.
A tuner on a factory rifle with factory ammo will show itself on a paper target.
A tuner on a benchrest rifle like described in the video shooting 160 shots into a quarter inch will just keep the rifle into a sweetspot..
I would guess that nobody in this thread has ever shot groups like we shoot on a regular basis so they aren't understanding what your saying versus what the manufacturers are saying.
Benchrest market share is small compared to the guys using factory ammo in factory guns or guns with a barrel swap.
The guys posting don't know your a benchrest shooter and you would throw your barrel away if it shot groups like the ones they find amazingly small.
Alot of posters here don't reload as well so to them a 3/8 group rarely if ever happens.
I think the disconnect is stemming from manufacturers making tuners to aid the general public just like Browning did with the BOSS.
A tuner on a factory rifle with factory ammo will show itself on a paper target.
A tuner on a benchrest rifle like described in the video shooting 160 shots into a quarter inch will just keep the rifle into a sweetspot..
I would guess that nobody in this thread has ever shot groups like we shoot on a regular basis so they aren't understanding what your saying versus what the manufacturers are saying.
Benchrest market share is small compared to the guys using factory ammo in factory guns or guns with a barrel swap.
……no one knows he’s a benchrest shooter because he doesn’t win anything with his rifles.
And he claims that his rifles shooter better than everyone else’s but he can’t tune wind (his exact words).
If that were the case, he’d be too busy tuning everyone’s rifles to be posting here arguing that his theories work.
And he claims that his rifles shooter better than everyone else’s but he can’t tune wind (his exact words).
If that were the case, he’d be too busy tuning everyone’s rifles to be posting here arguing that his theories work.
T=
Great point camel !!!!! and the most crucial part . no truer words out there. That is why test premise is suspect , if he had used factory ammo then the test was easy to see the tuner work in fact shoot better with a tuner and now the results are completely reversed even statistically.Then all of these supposed false claims are true . You just can not make a one hole gun shoot better to any real degree at 100 yards and can call any improvement just normal noise. That is the reality of it and most all tuner users know this especially benchrest shooters who really know their system. So it is critical to know how something works to test it correctly and admittedly he lacks experience with a tuner . This is why everybody is mad that the data that is not consistent with the long time tuner users and manufacturers and the claim that a tuner puts a rifle out of tune showing effect and saying it does not work is even more suspect.
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Timintx
Have any of these posters on this thread ever shot better than you at the king of 2 miles?
I remember you finishing 2nd place so have any of the guys ever won?
Have any of these posters on this thread ever shot better than you at the king of 2 miles?
I remember you finishing 2nd place so have any of the guys ever won?
He must have tuned the winner’s gun better than his own.
If it will put the gun out of tune then it will put the gun in to tune . Why did he stop at the out of tune setting?
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Every rifle was tuned the same way and you know it ,you were told this at the clubhouse when we first met. Specifically weighted by adjusting until tuned .pretty simple . Everybody knows that at the matches lol.
Ah yes. King of 2 mile.
You know, that match where a PRS shooter who'd hardly ever shot ELR before showed up with a Bushnell, a game changer rear bag, and a phone app for his dope........won. And without a tuner.
That'll show em who knows what around here.......
You know, that match where a PRS shooter who'd hardly ever shot ELR before showed up with a Bushnell, a game changer rear bag, and a phone app for his dope........won. And without a tuner.
That'll show em who knows what around here.......
Because Robert is a great shooter and had a fabulous gun to boot. No one says you have to use a tuner to win . It is just a tool.
Sure and I believe you. Just not a tuner which you said the benefit is to allow you "to fine tune on the fly" Why wouldn't you want that benefit?
Simple ,because I know what pattern I am adjusting and the tuner by trimming which does the same thing as moving a weight rearward and shooting , specifically weighted tuner/ brake no more adjustments are needed once tuned due to the width of the window where group size does not change. That barrel is only tuned with that weight and for one bullet only .I can widen these windows and smooth out these patterns creating super wide consistent patterns. Creating those patterns is not easy but was created for extreme range issues due to velocity variance. Sure helped me at white oak creek a few weeks ago . How about we do it on your gun for next year and you will see for yourself but I make the brake?If you don’t like it then just put your old brake back on fair enough ?
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No , I made and used tuners from manufacturers for my research and competitions and made a few for friends. But tuners are only a small part of the research I do . If you would like I will post pictures of some of different muzzle tuning systems Tomorrow .
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I'm always down for trying something new. My current rifle is a freaking hammer and out shoots me. Maybe we try it on Jaclyn's new gun. She's the better shooter anyways lol
So I take it nobody in this thread has finished higher than timintx?
Category_theory
If you have ever seen a rimfire sporter barrel the profile shows you how to use a muzzlebrake as a tuner.
You add mass out in front of the muzzle so the node is at or beyond the muzzle then you backbone or face off the muzzlebrake until the gun is in tune.
We are shooting next Sunday weather permitting and you can look at my gun.
You can also shoot it!!!
Category_theory
If you have ever seen a rimfire sporter barrel the profile shows you how to use a muzzlebrake as a tuner.
You add mass out in front of the muzzle so the node is at or beyond the muzzle then you backbone or face off the muzzlebrake until the gun is in tune.
We are shooting next Sunday weather permitting and you can look at my gun.
You can also shoot it!!!
Won my last match . What have you won ?
This is the exact logic that has gotten people to where they are now after 20+ years. Strawman arguments instead of facts.
If we go by the above logic of match placement.....that would mean unless you've left the earth's atmosphere, you aren't able to understand the physics behind it.
And then there's the always awesome "technology I can't talk about." While at the same time having no products to sell, nor contracts to fulfill. Meanwhile, actual data driven companies like AB have their software imbedded in devices all over the world and have their fill of .gov contracts. Take the hint. Put the sharpie and legal pad down.......get some actual data, and prove everyone else wrong. Or, still be here in another five years with the same arguments from five years ago already. And make your claim to fame something better than "this rimfire guy put my name on a page in a book that no one can buy."
If we go by the above logic of match placement.....that would mean unless you've left the earth's atmosphere, you aren't able to understand the physics behind it.
And then there's the always awesome "technology I can't talk about." While at the same time having no products to sell, nor contracts to fulfill. Meanwhile, actual data driven companies like AB have their software imbedded in devices all over the world and have their fill of .gov contracts. Take the hint. Put the sharpie and legal pad down.......get some actual data, and prove everyone else wrong. Or, still be here in another five years with the same arguments from five years ago already. And make your claim to fame something better than "this rimfire guy put my name on a page in a book that no one can buy."
Lol, you are the one saying I am not winning , I am only answering your post.I have all the data I need . You can get your own data , but you won’t lol.
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Thanks man! I’m trying like hell to make it this Sunday! There is a good chance though. I think I got most of the Xmas stuff done for the kids
Just hilarious how the trolls say I am not winning anything then when are shown that I am winning they say oh that does not mean anything , lol. All they are about is detracting from the thread . The tuners users know the truth and it is obvious the trolls do not have a clue but want everybody else to do the work for them . .
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Oh that does not mean anything lol according to the trolls, but they sure say stuff that is not true then try to side step it lol.
Almost every top shooter is also running Applied Ballistics also.
I wish you guys would stop trolling the thread with your match result dick measuring. This is why every tuner thread turns into a cesspool.
If you had any data or arguments worth discussing, you would have posted it by now.
If you had any data or arguments worth discussing, you would have posted it by now.
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