How did this turn into a bench rest discussion instead of ELR and AB?
Barrel Tuners and Bryan Litz’s vol. 3
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The answer is yes I literally have shelves of trophies from other shooting related disciplines that are not relevant.
Again, almost all of the top meal. Our shooters are using AB and continue poke at him. Please answer my question with something relevant. Please post some results from some national ELR matches.
So a National Benchrest Championship at 1000 yards shares nothing in common with ELR?
Is that what your saying?
Is that what your saying?
Wow you really can't read. What national ELR match's have you placed first?
Those trophies and wood panel go together well.
Newest one I can make out is from 2003.
Apparently AB was also used in shotgun competitions 20 years ago. I guess I do learn something new every day.
He doesn't respond to anything that is actually productive. People have been trying for years to use logic with him and have failed. We all have closets full of trophies. It's just a strawman when they don't have data to post.
When people ask them why they don't win 1k BR matches it's because they can't read wind but their guns shoot better. When people ask them where the doppler data is, they say their testing is better. When people ask them for their testing, they say they aren't able to discuss it.
Then they start posting about placing in matches as if that means something. Like Michael Jordan must be an expert on projectile motion because he's a great basketball player.
They say "just use a high speed camera" and when someone posts that, they say "oh you can't see it." One of them says you set it and forget it, they other says you tune in real time to the conditions.
It's just a never ending cycle of straw and can kicking.
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Do you ELR? No . If not why are you telling lies and say other people are doing exactly what you have been doing with insults , no data , nothing relevant to the discussion and saying no one wins matches . Then trying to give advice to me after the insults . You and tokay need to go . Otherwise show us anything that is beneficial to the discussion .You need to practice what you preach Troll.
Reading comprehension isn't your strongest attribute.
The national championship trophy has the year on it as does the video. And the latest title is URSA 3K Match winner not 2nd or 3rd place.
We don't even start shooting our matches until your 5th target .
We leave that for the kids just starting out.
And yes our targets are all smaller than yours as well
Are you going to post any results of a real National ELR match for these "west coast" shooters as requested or just keep deflecting? I'm guessing the answer is no which proves my point. Applied Ballistics must be doing something right because they keep winning while you post 20 year old shotgun buckles
Did this match have 7 shooters?
Congrats! That is quite the accomplishment.
Actually I already have and the URSA has been around longer than the ko2m and we shoot more matches than spearpoint.
I don't post 2nd and 3rd place like you do but I did see a 1st place in lightgun or what we call kiddie matches so good on you for that.
Now tell us why a 1000 yard benchrest national title wouldn't help an elr?
Is it because elr guns shoot smaller?
Is it because you reload better?
I like to hear your answers in case you need to go on the ignore list.
I don't post 2nd and 3rd place like you do but I did see a 1st place in lightgun or what we call kiddie matches so good on you for that.
Now tell us why a 1000 yard benchrest national title wouldn't help an elr?
Is it because elr guns shoot smaller?
Is it because you reload better?
I like to hear your answers in case you need to go on the ignore list.
Thank You your reading is still suspect but atleast you got the years figured out
And yes our worst shooter ever does well with you guys so I have an idea of how well you shoot at those up close targets
Top 5 reasons why there is no actual tuner data.
1. ITAR
2. .mil/TOP SECRET
3. Intellectual Property
4. Non-Disclosure Agreement
5. Magnets
Bonus:
I'd explain it to you, but you're too dumb to understand.
1. ITAR
2. .mil/TOP SECRET
3. Intellectual Property
4. Non-Disclosure Agreement
5. Magnets
Bonus:
I'd explain it to you, but you're too dumb to understand.
All we're about is data. Not anecdotes and hearsay.
lol those were all from weekend. I've got plenty more but don't feel the need to keep posting my results when you can't any in return.
We are talking about applied ballistics which isn't relevant when you shoot one distance with slighter shots. The skill in ELR is first round hits without the ability to shoot a bunch of sighters and adjust. If you would like to actually test your skill someday come shoot a real match.
Slighter shots?
Yeah when we first started out we shot the shorter distances like you guys do but that bored us so we start at 2150 yards and on a smaller target than those sheets of plywood size targets you guys try and hit.
What is crazy is you guys don't do much hitting after you have shot the first 4 short yardage targets and got all your wind dialed?
Do you routinely outload the 1000 yard benchrest guys?
I keep asking because you seem to have difficulty answering questions.
Yeah when we first started out we shot the shorter distances like you guys do but that bored us so we start at 2150 yards and on a smaller target than those sheets of plywood size targets you guys try and hit.
What is crazy is you guys don't do much hitting after you have shot the first 4 short yardage targets and got all your wind dialed?
Do you routinely outload the 1000 yard benchrest guys?
I keep asking because you seem to have difficulty answering questions.
Yet you haven’t been able to present a solitary shred. Maybe you don’t know the definition of data.
I have no interest in shooting long range benchrest where the most of the skill required for ELR is lost. Shooting a bunch of misses and correcting is just not something I find interesting. I want to challenge myself not just a reloading competition.
Starting at a mile with no practice shots takes some skill. You should try a match sometime if you wanna challenge yourself and not your reloading skills.
We don't start at a mile we start at 2147 yards after shooting a mile bored all of us.
But the kiddie targets are fun when you want a bunch of hits
But the kiddie targets are fun when you want a bunch of hits
It would definitely get boring with a bunch of practice rounds I agree.
So that match you keep bragging about winning had five shooters
Well done sir.
And no match results are listed for the 2010 BR win he was proudly posting about. Seems odd.So that match you keep bragging about winning had five shooters
You also shoot two targets lmao. This is amazing. You also keep talking about short distance. Please tell me how many two mile hits you have in a match?
Actually you asked for match wins and when I posted it upset you.So that match you keep bragging about winning had five shooters
But Tim says your a good shooter so I will take his word.
Isn’t that the year they cancelled for weather and didn’t declare a winner? Is that why our boy deleted all his posts and got run off the benchrest forums?
You’ll never get a reasonable response from him. Just stop engaging and ignore and maybe this thread will make some progress.
Oh not upset just think it's hilarious that when I ask about National ELR match results that you brag about winning one with 5 shooters and 2 targets. Then you make fun of my first and second in the same weekend when you've never even hit a two mile plate Lolol
This keeps getting better "However, 6 matchs (for LG an HG each) were not able to be conducted. Results were determined based on match results fired on Friday and Saturday. Some shooters wanted the match resumed on Monday." So the other match you bragged about 13 years ago wasn't even a full match lmao
Dude likely has a legit mental illness. Resurfaces every so often with new screename after whichever forum banned him last.
And then people end up looking worse when they either associate with him or let him use their name in posts. Probably not a coincidence that his name is in the Calfee book that you can't buy on Amazon and other places. Just the one that no one can get and no one talks about.
And then people end up looking worse when they either associate with him or let him use their name in posts. Probably not a coincidence that his name is in the Calfee book that you can't buy on Amazon and other places. Just the one that no one can get and no one talks about.
Upset you are definitely upset.
A tuner won its first national 1000 yard benchrest match and Don Nielsen was just as upset as you are.
A guy with a tuner winning a match proves precisely zero in their effectiveness.
If only tuners were winning matches that'd say something but the results are so spread.
If only tuners were winning matches that'd say something but the results are so spread.
The tuner winning upset the vice president of the NBRSA enough that they took away 5 hall of fame points and said the fog on the last relay made the last targets damp.
Tuners are coming and they will dominate in all categories that allow them to be used.
Change is hard for some but those will be the shooters left in the dust.
No, no, no. Only when someone wins with a tuner is that able to be used in the debate. Also, only groups that are smaller than a chrono velocity are allowed to be used as data. Never are you allowed to analyze groups that are larger than velocity dictates. And if you do use the larger groups.....they are automatically ruled "out of tune."
Tuner rules also dictate that scientists with millions of dollars of equipment and sensors are less effective than someone in their backyard or garage.
Also keep in mind, a 2nd place finish at KO2M means you are immediately correct with all things tuner related. But you are not allowed to use the example of someone winning KO2M that knows almost nothing about tuners that shows that placement in matches means little to nothing insofar as knowledge of internal/external ballistics.
And lastly, remember, tuner debate rules also demand that research companies who produce data which suggest tuners aren't reliable......are doing so because they somehow profit from this. They do this in spite of the fact that they would make, far, far more profit by being the first company to empirically validate tuners.......and then selling their own brand of tuners. They do this just to spite people like Tim because they hate money.
Because.......logic.
No upset but definitely entertained by your lack of comprehension. I have no idea of tuners work or not and have literally never touched one. What I tend to lean towards is when people post scientific testing and public results.
All I've seen from the other point of view is complaining about the tests but no one has stepped up with their own which should be easily shown according to them. All I've heard is things such as it's secret we can't tell you and look a tuner won a match.
All I've gotten from you is pictures of two decade old shotgun buckles and bragging about winning a match with five participants. No wonder people don't take you serious.
Back to the original subject , when someone tells the whole industry that their products are not valid and the manufacturers are not telling the truth there is going to be repercussions or poking as Shane put it . That is wrong to do that even fully believing it to be true just to find out later at some time that the test was wrong in its results . So this infighting in the shooting community is the direct result of that . I hope Brian restest at a later date knowing what he does now and try to bring everyone back together as he has stated on this subject because this fighting is just ridiculous and over a subject soon to be proven otherwise. Everybody is defending a statistical assumption at a 40% confidence factor at most . So come on people give it time and let it play out .
Why wouldn't a manufacturer post their own testing instead of just claiming flaws in another test. Shouldn't this be easily done? Seems like an easy solution and would definitely promote their product and drive business.
I fundamentally disagree. That is literally how it should be done. Do a test, come to a conclusion. When more data is available, you can then change your conclusion based on the updated information. You can't just ignore test results because they don't match your hypothesis. Well, I suppose you can, but don't be surprised when people don't hold your opinion to high value.
If his test was so wrong, surely someone could produce data that shows different results. Instead, we get shouting that the test was wrong and anecdotally X should happen instead of Y.
Until more data is made available, I find it extremely difficult to accept any claims about tuner performance. Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.
As in many things in shooting if it works for you it’s great. If it does not move along and try again
Having shot for decades I have seen many things come, go, come back and go again
My personal thoughts on extreme accuracy is keep it simple. Reduce the variables and things come together for me and those I teach
I know guys who swear by tuners that are great shooters and I know guys who don’t believe in tuners who are great shooters
Me personally if I get a barrel that won’t shoot with known load that has worked great in other barrels of same chamber and type they become tomato stakes because I just won’t waste ammo or time on them
Is that the absolute correct way to do it? No Fng clue but it works for me
Having shot for decades I have seen many things come, go, come back and go again
My personal thoughts on extreme accuracy is keep it simple. Reduce the variables and things come together for me and those I teach
I know guys who swear by tuners that are great shooters and I know guys who don’t believe in tuners who are great shooters
Me personally if I get a barrel that won’t shoot with known load that has worked great in other barrels of same chamber and type they become tomato stakes because I just won’t waste ammo or time on them
Is that the absolute correct way to do it? No Fng clue but it works for me
They do , it is just discounted say low shot counts , or they just do not completely understand the real effects involved , that is why I got involved , to show the effects and how to interpret those effects .it is very complicated and hard to explain . Everybody was hoping Bryan would show those effects to better understand but that didn’t happen . Instead the result was a broad blanket statement saying tuners do not work .
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