Bergara has a new rimfire.

[Rob01]

Are you a patent lawyer? Don't answer I already know.

Do you have access to Voodu's patents?

Do you have access to a Bergara B-22 magazine and on its engineering drawings?

Do you have the professional knowledge to be able to examine both and back up your claim of patent infringement?

I'm gonna bet the answers are no, no, and no.

Bottom line is I'll buy a Bergara if I like a Bergara and will let the lawyers (the real lawyers, not the shithouse lawyers) sort it out.

And people like you who come in just to stir the shit? LOl Buy what you want.

And no I am not a patent attorney nor have I seen the Bergara mag but I know Mike well enough to know if he sees enough of an issue to start conversing with Bergara then there is an issue with possible infringement. Time will tell if there is but I stand by my statement if there is. If not then all the best to Bergara. They make a good product now in centerfire and I recommend them to many people.

 

[orkan]

SMFH..............

You're an expert in everything

I am considered to be an expert in a few things relating to this industry, especially as it pertains to the topic of discussion here. Certainly not everything however.

Some of us spend our time doing something other than slinging insults at multiple people every single day on this website.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I wonder if the vudoo mags are compatible with these Bergara rifles, and if Vudoo could see an increase of mag sales because of it.

Only if the price was right.

 

[308pirate]

I am considered to be an expert in a few things relating to this industry, especially as it pertains to the topic of discussion here. Certainly not everything however.

Some of us spend our time doing something other than slinging insults at multiple people every single day on this website.

I'm sure your expertise doesn't include IP law.

There's a difference between "the few patent attorneys I dealt with were incompetent" and what you said. The latter would be considered personal experience based on observation. The latter is just know-it-all douchebaggery.

 

[RAVAGE88]

I'm sure your expertise doesn't include IP law.

There's a difference between "the few patent attorneys I dealt with were incompetent" and what you said. The latter would be considered personal experience based on observation. The latter is just know-it-all douchebaggery.

Come on Dude, I've spent a bit of time and effort trying to calm things down in this thread, as has Orkan, let's let it breathe a little. I get what you're saying and recognize you're making valid points (which is appreciated), and some or most here have likely seen and/or maybe even experienced bad juju in cases like this, but it'll be sorted out and we'll be on to the next thing soon.

Thanks,
MB

 

[JaoeyP]

I want a Bergara B-14R AND I want Bergara to do right by the magazine's designer/patent holder.

 

[orkan]

I'm sure your expertise doesn't include IP law.

Since I have a patent, have successfully defended it before, with several others pending... I'd say I know more than most here.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Since I have a patent, have successfully defended it before, with several others pending... I'd say I know more than most here.

I would say your are correct.

Besides that I want a Bugera and a Vudoo. Why can't we all just have both? It's just that simple. ?

 

[JakeM]

I'am starting to think most of these people are just butthurt cause they payed 2k for a .22lr and now bergara has a more affordable option.

 

[Tokay444]

I'am starting to think most of these people are just butthurt cause they payed 2k for a .22lr and now bergara has a more affordable option.

Doubtful. Highly doubtful. There has always existed, “more affordable” options. Alway.

 

[JaoeyP]

I'am starting to think most of these people are just butthurt cause they payed 2k for a .22lr and now bergara has a more affordable option.

Yeah I'm not so sure. I really want one of these Bergaras, but I have no illusion that this rifle will be on par with a Vudoo. Not to knock Bergara by any means, but they are what they are- a very good quality production product. The Vudoo is a top of the line custom product. I don't think guys who have made the monetary commitment to a Vudoo will regret it because of the Bergara.

 

[OneBill]

Yeah I'm not so sure. I really want one of these Bergaras, but I have no illusion that this rifle will be on par with a Vudoo. Not to knock Bergara by any means, but they are what they are- a very good quality production product. The Vudoo is a top of the line custom product. I don't think guys who have made the monetary commitment to a Vudoo will regret it because of the Bergara.

That’s exactly what I’m saying from the very beginning of this thread. I do understand the issue with Mike’s patent, but product wise there’s no comparison or cross shopping. Two different animals. Vudoo is safe. CZ is not...

 

[JakeM]

Then can somebody tell me what the bitch festival is about?

 

[NateVA]

Then can somebody tell me what the bitch festival is about?

It's people concerned that a larger company *may* be infringing on the patent of a smaller company so they can rip off their magazine design with a magazine that at least on the surface looks extremely similar to the V-22 magazine. You are incorrect about the Bergara competing with Vudoo though, they're more in the quality/price range of CZ.

 

[Hellbender]

It's people concerned that a larger company *may* be infringing on the patent of a smaller company so they can rip off their magazine design with a magazine that at least on the surface looks extremely similar to the V-22 magazine. You are incorrect about the Bergara competing with Vudoo though, they're more in the quality/price range of CZ.

100% correct...If Boogera would have made their OWN magazine WITHOUT copying some one else's idea, I would have NO problems (UNLESS they also infringed on other patents in the action, etc.)

And don't say...well, maybe no other mag design will work on the 40x/700 platform, ....that's BS, I made a conversion using a Marlin mag back in 2009, many others have been used, Remington even had factory repeaters.

At least some small businesses will profit from this gun..... upgraded barrels, better triggers, stocks, bolt knobs, etc.

I'll also bet $100, payable to any charity you want, they changed some small detail of their magazine so the Vudoo mag will not work in their gun and vice versa to try and evade patent problems.

But you all just continue to buy your Atlas bipod knock off's, download your free music, etc, etc.

I'm done with this issue, but I wish you would all just think of the terrible damage this IP theft does to innovation and small businesses.

 

[littlepod]

I think standardizing on an AICS 22LR mag would be great. In my opinion, AICS has really made it nice for center-fire rifles, and I would love to not have a unique 22LR magazine for every damn rimfire I shoot. So even if Mike has a patent on this 22LR AICS magazine, it'd be nice if he would open it up and allow other vendors to do it, for the benefit of the shooter.

Now the V22 action is a very, very high quality made rifle, just like very nice custom actions from ARC, Impact, etc. Or people who even take the time and effort to build crazy nice rifles like TacOps. You can make money and sell a lot of quality made items. But at least standardize on a magazine...

 

[orkan]

You can make money and sell a lot of quality made items. But at least standardize on a magazine...

Standardization requires cooperation. This is not default in a capitalist society. You invent something, you want to profit from it. There were others that built AICS form magazines for 22lr 40x repeaters long before voodoo, myself included... but no one attempted to patent it. They are attempting to patent it now... so we'll see how it works out.

 

[ScottDWallace]

LOL what?

Some of you fanboys seem to think no one has ever done an accurate rimfire repeating bolt action rifle before

Whatever

Are you implying that controlled round feed is not paramount to accuracy? You gotta be shitting me. And Fanboys?

Plenty of people have done accurate rimfire repeating bolt action rifles. I have some in my safe. All of them have chambers cut specifically to a brand of ammo and CRF.

Do you even own a Vudoo? Probably not is my guess.

Whatever indeed.

 

[scotty2hotty]

What's with all the arguing on this thread. You all seem like a bunch of angry old bitches at the senior citizen home.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

What's with all the arguing on this thread. You all seem like a bunch of angry old bitches at the senior citizen home.

Ahh sheeeeet.

 

[-=boone=-]

When the people who defended Badger Ordnance who blatantly ripped of Accuracy International are now are defending a company for patient infringement you have to absolutely shake your head.

 

[Frankr]

Word on another forum is 90 days out for the carbon fiber barred version. Anyone else heard anything like this?

 

[68hoyt]

What I read on another forum is , from his dealer , end of November for steel then another 90 days for carbon fiber

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Vudoo could allow anyone to use their patent when designing and selling a rifle. But not allow other manufacturers to manufacture magazines via Vudoo's patent. Then Vudoo would have the monopoly of manufacturing and selling the mags. Probably very profitable for Vudoo w/o cannibalizing V22 barreled action sales.

And I'd bet dollars to donuts that's what's happening as we speak and can not be talked about yet as the final contracts have yet to be signed.

 

[idgunnut]

What I read on another forum is , from his dealer , end of November for steel then another 90 days for carbon fiber

That is correct 90 days from end of November, I would be surprised if any show up that soon but anything is possible depends on the legal issues if there is as well

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Why would I want a CF barrel? I guess for a super-duper light weight rig, but why?

Bergara and high end centerfire action manufacturers co-exist, I don't see this as any different.

Really interested to see the patent on the mags. Considering that the idea of a rimfire in a R700 action footprint is the goal, and AICS mags are the standard for the chassis that fit that footprint, the idea of a AICS mag in 22lr seems like a stretch to have a patent on. How it's done, sure I could see that. Then again, I've seen patents granted for well known material . technology used in a vertical plane instead of a horizontal plane- so anything is possible.

 

[ilmonster]

Agreed. If I have $2,000+ for a rimfire, I'm thinking Voodoo or Anschutz 54 action rifles. If I am in the $500-$1,000 range (which I've been), I'm thinking a hopped up CZ, Tikka or Anschutz 64 action (which is what I have). The two categories are not crossing over just like centerfire rifles.

 

[68hoyt]

What’s the latest ?

 

[Tacticaltoad]

I've not heard any new news. The distributors are finally listing the B14R. They have magazines in stock as of today. They have the steel barrel model, carbon fiber, and also each option in a barreled action which includes a magazine and trigger. This is all according to one of my distributors.

Looks like barreled actions MSRP is $797 for steel and $864 for carbon fiber. This is listed at a distributor.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I've not heard any new news. The distributors are finally listing the B14R. They have magazines in stock as of today. They have the steel barrel model, carbon fiber, and also each option in a barreled action which includes a magazine and trigger. This is all according to one of my distributors.

Looks like barreled actions MSRP is $797 for steel and $864 for carbon fiber. This is listed at a distributor.

Which one?

 

[Tacticaltoad]

Which one?

Sport South

 

[OneBill]

I’ve heard they bankrupt. Maybe I’ve heard wrong...

 

[Tacticaltoad]

I’ve heard they bankrupt. Maybe I’ve heard wrong...

Who, Bergara or Sport South?

 

[hlee]

Patents are not secret. In fact, if you want to keep something secret, you do NOT patent it. A patent is the govt granting the patent holder a limited monopoly to produce and sell an item, in return for giving the people of the US the instructions for producing your "thing..."

I'll just leave this here.

United States Patent: 9429379

A magazine adapter includes a base that is structured to fit within the magazine well of a firearm, and to accept a magazine designed for smaller caliber ammunition than the original firearm.

 

[Tacticaltoad]

Still no word on the trigger....like who makes it. What the weight out of the box will roughly be or if its possibly adjustable at all at any level.

Asking a lot I know.

Distributor lists 9.2 for steel and 8.1 for carbon fiber both at 18".

No details about the trigger, but I think a safe assumption would be what comes standard in the rest of the B14 rifles.

 

[Tacticaltoad]

I meant the pull weight of the trigger and if it was adjustable.

Buddy has a 6.5 CM Bergara...not sure what they have as standard equipment.

But thanks!

Ah gotcha. Assuming it's the same as the rest of the b14 line it their own trigger, adjustable between 2 and 5lbs (I think) is what they advertise.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Patents are not secret. In fact, if you want to keep something secret, you do NOT patent it. A patent is the govt granting the patent holder a limited monopoly to produce and sell an item, in return for giving the people of the US the instructions for producing your "thing..."

I'll just leave this here.

United States Patent: 9429379

A magazine adapter includes a base that is structured to fit within the magazine well of a firearm, and to accept a magazine designed for smaller caliber ammunition than the original firearm.

That's a patent for the Boonie Packer Bettermag adapter. It's a trick little part, I love mine.

 

[hlee]

That's a patent for the Boonie Packer Bettermag adapter. It's a trick little part, I love mine.

Some people might call it "prior art."

So, about that "neva' bin dun beefoh..."

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Some people might call it "prior art."

So, about that "neva' bin dun beefoh..."

Ah, excellent point. The Tac-Sol Glock conversions, with their glock pattern 22lr mags designed to work in a standard centerfire frame would be another example. And there are plenty of others.

 

[OneBill]

Who, Bergara or Sport South?

Sport South. Maybe just a rumor. But looking forward to see if the delta in price between the rifle and the barreled action will justify my choice...

 

[Tacticaltoad]

Sport South. Maybe just a rumor. But looking forward to see if the delta in price between the rifle and the barreled action will justify my choice...

Man, I hope not. They're a good distributor. If they go under that's 3 big distributors in a 2-3 year span.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Sport South. Maybe just a rumor. But looking forward to see if the delta in price between the rifle and the barreled action will justify my choice...

Are you sure you're not thinking of Accusport?

 

[ESBVader]

I’ve heard they bankrupt. Maybe I’ve heard wrong...

I haven't heard of a Sports South bankrupcy, but Ellett Brothers (a different distributor) did go bankrupt. That is how the market got flooded with cheap firearms in the last few months. They sold millions in inventory for pennies on the dollar.

 

[1slow01z71]

Seems pretty chickenshit to patent the AICS for factor when used for 22lr. Plenty of other folks have made similar designs before. Its like the guy who patented larger than standard AR bolts even though wildcatters have been making them for a decade or more.

 

[Rob01]

Actually pretty smart when you are building a newly designed rifle.

 

[1slow01z71]

Unless vudoo allows everyone to use it like magpul did with mlok, theyre doing nothing but inhibiting advancement. The vudoo mag is simply a plastic AICS mixed with a 15-22 mag. They copied others before them as well. I just think its dumb to patent something that you, yourself copied.

 

[Rob01]

Well not for you or I to make that decision but it's up to the person with the patent. Not inhibiting anything actually. Anyone can come in and try to make something they think is better that doesn't infringe. And you over simplify what the mag is.

What is it that you think Vudoo copied?

 

[hlee]

And, if it goes to litigation, I think that any competent patent attorney will be able to "blow up" the patent.

Patents promote innovation by protecting the intellectual rights of those that are innovating. At the same time, the information is freely available- in the form of the patent materials- for those wishing to improve on that innovation. The alternative is a "wild west" scenario where no protections are provided to those making advancements, thus stifling the desire to make those advancements. Invention to "get around" patents also drives innovation by forcing innovators to look at problems from different angles. Some are winners, others are losers.

The comparison to M-loc is a straw man. Vudoo isn't going to make any additional money by allowing others to freely use their intellectual property. But, magpul can sell a butt-ton of accessories by allowing (forcing) others to use their standard.

I think there is enough prior art in the industry that the Vudoo mag patent won't last, but it is a good idea to patent inventions anyway.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Patents can rarely be explained in one sentence, especially with out any qualifiers.

It sounds like it is a design patent, and I would guess it is around where the feed lips are positioned. AICS mags are available in a wide range of calibers, though all center fire- so I doubt the body itself (dimensions and mag release cuts) would be the key. Dimensions of the feed cavity for 22lrs are widely known and discussed. How the feed lips integrate into the moving bolt- there you have some stuff.

The Mags are a bit more than just MP15-22s in an AICS cavity.

It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

 

[CarbonMTN]

I've changed my mind, I think I'll most likely pick one of these up. but as for the HUGE debate that people are saying about Vudoo, I do feel bad about the company but they will still have their following willing to drop that kind of cash. People buy those $10,000 custom shot guns with the fancy inlays but its doesn't shoot any better than a $300 dollar mossberg. Copy right? what copy right? its a Rem700 footprint chambered down to a 22lr Caliber. if anything Remington can maybe file? Vudoo has no case. If Vudoo can win the law suit than watch out, Remington might come after every 3rd party rem clone to help pay off HUGE dept that they have. and sue based off the mag design, quick redesign and it will beat the lawsuit.