Rifle Scopes Best FFP magnification level to run for PRS

[PracticalTactical]

My shooting group have been debating the best FFP magnification level to run for PRS and I’m wondering what you guys think with respect to the following points…

Spotting the vapor trail through the picket fence of stadia lines is a problem for us especially when impacts are unspottable in tall grass…

Our collective solution is to turn the magnification level down, NOT TO increase our field of view, BUT TO reduce the obstruction we call a tactical reticle so we can see the vape.

I know most PRS shooters tend to run around 12X even though they have more magnification available to them…

So are they running 12X to thin out the reticle or to increase the field of view or both?

Do they even know they are thinning out the reticle to help spot vapor trails?

What is the ideal max magnification we would want to dial down from and to for the best of both worlds?… meaning enough magnification to precisely align with the target and spot vapor trail.

I suspect there may be a relationship to the amount of recoil.

Is 20x set to 12x better than 24x set to 12x or 14x... or is 36x set to 18x better yet?

Is there an ideal balance here that we need a secret hand shake to find out?

Can you share that with me if I don't know the afore mentioned hand shake?

 

[spife7980]

Not sure what youre talking about lowering your magnification to reduce reticle obstruction. If youre on front focal scope it covers the same amount of target regardless of magnification level.

Not sure how this comes into play with the ability to watch trace, I would say they are independent of one another. Trace is more dependent on atmospherics and your bearing/relation to the light source than magnification level.

If zooming out allows you to see more trace then you are either zoomed too far in and loosing your sight picture on recoil or you are spotting to the side of the shooter and its crossing your view for too brief of a period (provided you can see it at all). Or you are mentally getting confused in reticle and need to get a simpler reticle that allows you to recognize the trace sooner, just as many people hate the christmas tree reticles as there are that like them. I say you can (and should) train to get used to anything.

PRS style shooting runs lower power than benchrest for example so that when the rifle does recoil you dont loose sight of the target/impacts in compromising positions that can happen with high magnification as well as being able to see where you need to transition to next without having to burn clock searching for it. So... more field of view. Some may have their preferences for reticle thickness but on a FFP scope thats dimension is set, its not adjustable. You need to chose appropriately for what you want.

I would be fine with more field of view at a higher magnification level as well if I could get it, in fact that would be preferred; seeing more area thats also bigger. Just the optical physics that interfere with that to a certain extent.



As far as a 20x set on 12 or a 24 set to 12 doesnt matter really. Get a scope that doesnt pigeon hole you and adjust it to what your situation dictates. People shoot field matches just fine with a 10x swfa ss. I like to shoot a high 20 something power scope because I also like to shoot paper a lot but in normal conditions Ill have it on 18-20 and on tie breaker timed stages Ill turn it down to 8-12x so I can see more faster. If I could get the equivalent field of view at 20x I would do that.

I can see damn near as much of the field with my cronus btr at 25x as I can with my LRTSi at 18x. The LRTSi reticle is noticeably thicker yet less "cluttered" though but that has nothing to do with magnification level.
The new burris XTR3 should allow for an equivalent field of view at 30x if the early specs are to be believed.

There is no secret sauce, get what works for you. In most cases thats just something that more expensive than what you have now

 

[gconnoyer]

^pretty much covered it.

Most PRS shooters are in that 12-15x range so that they have a wider field of view so that they dont get lost when transitioning targets or when moving position and getting back on target.
The increased FOV and decreased magnification also helps with spotting impacts/misses.

I cant really add anything more to what spife said.

 

[Pappasniper]

You also get less mirage in the 12-15 range. Middle of the day, its important.

PB

 

[koshkin]

One of the reasons to go with a FFP scope is so that you can adjust the magnification to whatever looks appropriate for the conditions and the task at hand and not worry what the actual magnification is. For me, that is usually between 10x and 15x.

For watching the bullet trace, you have to make sure your depth of field is sufficient to pick it up well before the target.

ILya

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just get a 3-27, 5-25, 5-27, 4.5-27, 4-32.......you get the idea. Something in the general area of 5-25.

Then just run it on whatever power you are comfortable with at matches. Sometimes it’s 10x cause it’s a mover and you want to be able to keep up with it. Sometimes it’s 15x which is a good balance of magnification with fov. Sometimes it’s 25x on a kyl rack. Sometimes the mirage dictates what power.

This has been discussed at nauseam. Use the search function. There is no “perfect” magnification. This is why everyone runs a variable power and not fixed power.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Seeing vapor trail is a bit harder with your rifle optic than it is with a pair of binos standing behind the shooter.

It’s not something you need to be focused on achieving.

Also, the faster the bullet/closer the distance, the harder it is to see through your rifle optic.

 

[koshkin]

Just get a 3-27, 5-25, 5-27, 4.5-27, 4-32.......you get the idea. Something in the general area of 5-25.

Then just run it on whatever power you are comfortable with at matches. Sometimes it’s 10x cause it’s a mover and you want to be able to keep up with it. Sometimes it’s 15x which is a good balance of magnification with fov. Sometimes it’s 25x on a kyl rack. Sometimes the mirage dictates what power.

This has been discussed at nauseam. Use the search function. There is no “perfect” magnification. This is why everyone runs a variable power and not fixed power.

I think many of these magnification questions are driven by a persistent myth that a scope's optical performance is always best at half of the max power. I do not know what booger eating nincompoop started this idiotic rumor, but I can't seem to exterminate it no matter how hard I try.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

Seeing vapor trail is a bit harder with your rifle optic than it is with a pair of binos standing behind the shooter.

It’s not something you need to be focused on achieving.

Not to be a pain in the neck... but you almost never get to see vapor trail. To get a vapor trail from a bullet the conditions have to be perfect and that almost never happens. What you see is the effects of the turbulence created by the shockwave of the propagating bullet since light refracts differently there.

ILya

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not to be a pain in the neck... but you almost never get to see vapor trail. To get a vapor trail from a bullet the conditions have to be perfect and that almost never happens. What you see is the effects of the turbulence created by the shockwave of the propagating bullet since light refracts differently there.

ILya

Yea, I know. But didn’t want to start breaking brains.

Regardless, I see the turbulence easily with 15x Swaro Binos standing behind the shooter. I don’t see it nearly as much when behind the rifle.

 

[goosed]

Not to be a pain in the neck... but you almost never get to see vapor trail. To get a vapor trail from a bullet the conditions have to be perfect and that almost never happens. What you see is the effects of the turbulence created by the shockwave of the propagating bullet since light refracts differently there.

ILya

The fancy way to say bullet trace. I like it

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think many of these magnification questions are driven by a persistent myth that a scope's optical performance is always best at half of the max power. I do not know what booger eating nincompoop started this idiotic rumor, but I can't seem to exterminate it no matter how hard I try.

ILya

I’m assuming that because when people crank up their magnification and they don’t have the greatest resolution do to environmental factors or just glass quality, and they get a better picture at a lower magnification, their brains want to attach it witch something. 1/2 sounds good and they go with it.

I have literally zero the amount of optical knowledge you have, but I just buy an optic I like the reticle and overall controls on, and I just turn the mag ring to wherever looks best for the situation. Most of the time I have no idea if I’m on 5x, 11.5x, or 27x.

 

[BigBC]

It's trial and error. I run a NF 4-14 FFP optic. Like many have said in this thread, you probably won't know exactly what mag your at once you've gotten acquainted with your rifle/optic/vision on the range. I have dialed to max and found no need to go higher for my PRS stages. I have also dialed back at longer ranges on targets that I just couldn't as well at 14x mag. Someone else's eyes will be different.

Try your gear out. Alot. If I ever start to see a need for higher mag I already have my next optic picked out. Until then I am gonna go get range time and shoot stages until I identify the need to change.

 

[PracticalTactical]

So if you guys almost never spot the trace or vapor trail, then how do you know where to shoot next when you miss?

The range where I mostly shoot is grassy and off target bullet impacts are impossible to spot.

BTW... I have 2 Burris XTRii's, one is 3-15 and the other is 4-20, so while not top level German glass, they aren't exactly junk either... Some of you may disagree. As for rifles I have a Cadex CDX TAC in 308 and a Defiance DT in 223 for a practice rifle... in a Cadex chassis.

 

[Diver160651]

Wait, wait it’s called Trace???

Shit this entire time I’ve been running the other way thinking it was a chemtrail ..
[

 

[Dthomas3523]

So if you guys almost never spot the trace or vapor trail, then how do you know where to shoot next when you miss?

The range where I mostly shoot is grassy and off target bullet impacts are impossible to spot.

BTW... I have 2 Burris XTRii's, one is 3-15 and the other is 4-20, so while not top level German glass, they aren't exactly junk either... Some of you may disagree. As for rifles I have a Cadex CDX TAC in 308 and a Defiance DT in 223 for a practice rifle... in a Cadex chassis.

If there’s grass, brush, dirt, etc etc, it’s not “impossible to spot.” Especially with the .308. It’s gonna move or kick something somewhere.

Just takes time to figure out what you’re looking for.

Also, once your dope/data is trued, most misses will usually be left or right depending on wind. If you miss and can’t spot the miss, you correct 1/2 target whichever way. If you miss again, you correct 1/2 target the opposite way as your last correction. That’s 3 shots into it. You should either be on plate or be able to see one of them for a correction.

 

[hacabrera071]

I usually run between 12x and 18x, no issues whatsoever!

 

[generalzip]

I watch trace through my scope all the time, even shooting off a barricade and almost every shot prone when conditions aren’t awful. The problem with trace when shooting long range prone is the max ord is often so high it goes into the light of the sky and you lose it.

Also if you miss and didn’t see where it went you want to move more than 1/2 target. Adjusting half a target width only brings you from edge to center. I’d move half a target if I watched a plate spin hard in one direction. Most experienced shooters will tell you to move at least 3/4-1 full target width.

To answer your question, 15x is the sweet spot on most 2 moa targets from 350-500 yards. Improvised prone kyl and further 650-800 yard targets 18x. Close 350 yard positional shoot house stages 12x. Long range prone 20-25x

 

[Josh H]

If there’s grass, brush, dirt, etc etc, it’s not “impossible to spot.” Especially with the .308. It’s gonna move or kick something somewhere.

Just takes time to figure out what you’re looking for.

Also, once your dope/data is trued, most misses will usually be left or right depending on wind. If you miss and can’t spot the miss, you correct 1/2 target whichever way. If you miss again, you correct 1/2 target the opposite way as your last correction. That’s 3 shots into it. You should either be on plate or be able to see one of them for a correction.

That's kind of a 'lightbulb moment' for me. Thank you for the excellent advice!

 

[Birddog6424]

Bullet trace isnt even on the radar for me. Too many other things to keep track of without trying to tune your scope in hope's of seeing trace.

FOV is my first consideration when setting my magnification for a stage. Followed by mirage. I give a quick and dirty parallax adjustment as soon as I get on target and away I go.

 

[dgheriani]

I watch trace through my scope all the time, even shooting off a barricade and almost every shot prone when conditions aren’t awful. The problem with trace when shooting long range prone is the max ord is often so high it goes into the light of the sky and you lose it.

Also if you miss and didn’t see where it went you want to move more than 1/2 target. Adjusting half a target width only brings you from edge to center. I’d move half a target if I watched a plate spin hard in one direction. Most experienced shooters will tell you to move at least 3/4-1 full target width.

To answer your question, 15x is the sweet spot on most 2 moa targets from 350-500 yards. Improvised prone kyl and further 650-800 yard targets 18x. Close 350 yard positional shoot house stages 12x. Long range prone 20-25x

This is pretty much on point although I shoot at different magnifications. Normally 11-13 positional and 13-16 prone (with a 5-25 scope). Might use a bit more mag for a KYL.

Trace also isn't something you just "see", you have to be looking in the right spot. I've been working on spotting my trace and can generally see it from prone and very stable "positional" positions, I'm still working on seeing it in other, less stable positions. Recoil management is key as is being able to hold the reticle on target while unfocussing your eye from the target and focussing the right distance above to pick up the trace.

 

[PracticalTactical]

This is pretty much on point although I shoot at different magnifications. Normally 11-13 positional and 13-16 prone (with a 5-25 scope). Might use a bit more mag for a KYL.

Trace also isn't something you just "see", you have to be looking in the right spot. I've been working on spotting my trace and can generally see it from prone and very stable "positional" positions, I'm still working on seeing it in other, less stable positions. Recoil management is key as is being able to hold the reticle on target while unfocussing your eye from the target and focussing the right distance above to pick up the trace.

Curious what reticle you are using?

I have a couple Burris XTRii's and I find the clutter with all the hash marks to distract under recoil. Like looking through a picket fence.

It would be easier to see trace with MIL dots I think.

 

[VegasHKShooter]

I shot a match Saturday, and pretty much stayed on 15X except for the KYL. I shot that on 20X because it was 350 yds. Since I was prone and stable, I cranked the power up a bit.
I’m using a NF 7-35, but I have even shot a match with my ATACR 4-16. The match I shot my 4-16, had the farthest stage I’ve ever shot in a match: 1160yds.
So, the farthest stage I e ever shot in a comp, was with my lowest power “Tactical Scope.”
Not counting LPVO.

 

[dgheriani]

Curious what reticle you are using?

I have a couple Burris XTRii's and I find the clutter with all the hash marks to distract under recoil. Like looking through a picket fence.

It would be easier to see trace with MIL dots I think.

2 of my rifles have Leupold Mk5 5-25s with the CCH reticle and one has a Bushnell HDMR2 with H59. The CCH is a bit better in that regard as it's more fine than the H59 as well as a bit more pared down. I'm thinking of trying something even simpler next year like a Mil-XT. I've always liked reticles with a grid or a tree but the more I work on seeing trace, the more I see the reason to have a simpler reticle. I mostly notice it in positional though, in prone, any of these reticles are fine. I was shooting this afternoon with the sun in my face and no problem spotting trace with the H59 (on a 6 Creed) when shooting prone from 500 out to 830.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I've always liked reticles with a grid or a tree but the more I work on seeing trace, the more I see the reason to have a simpler reticle. I mostly notice it in positional though, in prone, any of this reticles is fine.

Agreed dgheriani...

I like the Nightforce MOAR 30 MOA reticle too since they have a more discreate reticle up from center with nothing in the top third or so.

Many of these new reticle designs are victims of having too much of a good thing and in this case, less is more.

BTW, Contrary to most PRS shooters, I still shoot MOA... Been doing it for too long to make a transition to Mils at this point. Just slows down the decision process for me.

 

[Birddog6424]

I have a pair of XTR2's with the H591 reticle on my comp guns.

I agree it's a little more clutter than neccessary. There are some features in that reticle designed for military use that we dont need. But all in all I like the reticle.

I'm looking forward to the SCR2 that is rolling out with the new XTR3. It's a very nice blend of open reticle and detailed grid.

 

[dgheriani]

I have a pair of XTR2's with the H591 reticle on my comp guns.

I agree it's a little more clutter than neccessary. There are some features in that reticle designed for military use that we dont need. But all in all I like the reticle.

I'm looking forward to the SCR2 that is rolling out with the new XTR3. It's a very nice blend of open reticle and detailed grid.

I like the H59 as well and the H591 is a slightly improved (imo) version. I actually just snagged a XTR2 4-20 H591 off a prize table and am curious to see what I think. They just need to get rid of the mover holds on top of the horizontal axis as they're calibrated for .308s and get rid of the "steps" for ranging. The main thing I prefer now about the CCH to the H59 (and it took some getting used to originally) is that it's actually thinner so it obscures things a bit less. Reticles are such a personal preference kinda thing though.

 

[Birddog6424]

I also like the H591 better than the standard H59. More definition in the hold under portion of the reticle, and the reticle isnt nearly so thick in the H591.