IMO You made a good choice. Congrats.I went ahead and back ordered the cat wb718 inconel. I am hoping it does not take longer than 6 months to fulfill my back order
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Best flow through suppressor
- Thread starter psharon78
- Start date
Picked up my Radical Defense LS3 today. The CS3 in Haynes 282 is still waiting for final approval since it was done through my trust. Pretty neat can, 14oz or so in titanium, a bit longer than my "legacy" Huxwrx HD-QD 762Ti but about an ounce lighter. Tested far, far better than my Flow 762 so I'm anxious to see just how "low back pressure" it really is and how well it does on a 5.56 host. Went with the larger caliber in case I move up to the 6 Max round.
Looks like it has additive printed "traditional" baffles along with spiral ports that exit radially at the front. I can't see what sort of magic is happening in between baffles, if any. I did bore scope it but couldn't really tell much.
I'm swapping over to the Huxwrx HUB QD mount. It's out of stock across the universe so I may not get a chance to shoot it any time soon. I actually made it to the range yesterday for all of 45 minutes to start break-in and get headspace on my POF Revolution which they just re-barreled. If it'd only arrived a day sooner.
Next to the Huxwrx HD-QD 762Ti. I'll take photos next to the Flow tomorrow.
Looks like it has additive printed "traditional" baffles along with spiral ports that exit radially at the front. I can't see what sort of magic is happening in between baffles, if any. I did bore scope it but couldn't really tell much.
I'm swapping over to the Huxwrx HUB QD mount. It's out of stock across the universe so I may not get a chance to shoot it any time soon. I actually made it to the range yesterday for all of 45 minutes to start break-in and get headspace on my POF Revolution which they just re-barreled. If it'd only arrived a day sooner.
Next to the Huxwrx HD-QD 762Ti. I'll take photos next to the Flow tomorrow.
Pretty interesting. Silencer Shop has a free tax stamp on the inconel full-size 5.56 version. Pretty hefty, over 20oz. once you do a mount (other than direct thread) but the 308 in titanium is stupid light. I'd still like to see testing numbers but it sounded really good with 308 subsonic rounds in a bolt gun. Then again, what doesn't?
I've done hand loads of 308 subsonic rounds once. Got fairly sporadic velocities and then read about how iffy/dangerous those rounds can be without the proper technique. Rumor has it Trail Boss is still being produced and will be back on the shelves soon. One can only hope.
Like the weight on the Ti cans, really looks like it's a very low backpressure can. How it compares to Huxwrx we'll have to wait and see.
Have to say, I think the competition is going to be very fierce and the rate of development is going to be rapid. Given the short wait times, definitely a golden age that could only be made better by the elimination of the tax stamp altogether.
I've done hand loads of 308 subsonic rounds once. Got fairly sporadic velocities and then read about how iffy/dangerous those rounds can be without the proper technique. Rumor has it Trail Boss is still being produced and will be back on the shelves soon. One can only hope.
Like the weight on the Ti cans, really looks like it's a very low backpressure can. How it compares to Huxwrx we'll have to wait and see.
Have to say, I think the competition is going to be very fierce and the rate of development is going to be rapid. Given the short wait times, definitely a golden age that could only be made better by the elimination of the tax stamp altogether.
Just don't let that abrasive powder make it's way down the barrel towards the chamber.
That could be an expensive issue to fix.
I've never had an issue with Huxwrx in that regard but after reading about multiple cases with CGS, I took the time to rinse out the RD. I did notice the muzzle device seemed to have a thin layer of residue on it. I flushed it out with water multiple times including with agitation and did get some residual debris out. The amount wasn't alarming and it wasn't close to being enough to build titanium sand castles or anything but enough that I was glad I did it. The Huxwrx just seemed to burn off after putting a good number of rounds through it. I don't see the sparks/flash that I did initially and none of my rifles showed signs of contamination. I did make a point to look.
It's strange, you never hear anything about the inconel/cobalt/stainless/Haynes cans having similar issues with residual debris/powder from the additive process. I've got the Haynes 282 version in time out, I'll flush it and see what sort of debris comes out, if any.
I've only heard of this issue with CGS, when they decided to skip a flushing step at the end.
That said, if I had a 3D printed titanium can, I would be taking some extra precautions the first few outings. The possibility of wrecking a barrel would definitely have my attention.
1) I have done it with CLP, so just one step. 2) When the liquid turns blue it means lead (maybe) so wear gloves. 3) There are probably rules on how to dispose of the liquid properly.
The competition in 30 cal Titanium and Inconel is def picking up.
Velos LBP (I think there was a Velos non-LBP before it) is a direct competitor to this SRBS.
I don't believe the ODB is direct competition, because that is rated 7.63x39, and CAT CS clearly informed me :
"We make purpose built suppressors, with no apologies about it. We don't do one size fits all. We would love for you to be a customer of CAT, but we must stress that we make very specialized suppressors for specific use cases. Changing course from that is something we are not going to do."
That's not the entire reply from them, but my takeaway was: If the suppressor is not rated for the caliber on the website (in writing), then it is not rated for that caliber. So, if you look at ODB on CAT's website, the max rating for the Ti model is a 10" barrel in 7.62x39, and the Inconel model is max rated at an 8" barrel in 556. That's the takeaway for ODB, and I believe that places it as not direct competition for these two others: Velos LBP and this new SBRS.
Now, I also noticed the SBRS Ti model is very lightweight, and it had me wondering about the overall design strength. It may be a very simple internal design and not need much metal to implement to a high structural integrity at pressure. Or, it might not be strong.
I've had a couple manufacturers tell me that their Ti cans are not rated for Supersonic rounds, and using supers would void the warranty. (The subjects were 9mm pistol LBP / Flow type cans built in Ti and HUB mounts, and suitable for 300 BLK subs, but not 300 Supers. Supers voided the warranty, and was told supers would absolutely damage the can).
So, when I'm looking at Ti cans meant for relatively low pressures, I use the cans weight as a measure of more than just "can I use this without a booster?" The message here is, the overall weight of the can might be used to judge the overall strength of the internal architecture, and possibly the strength of the welds. Maybe.
So I'm skeptical of the SRBS model, and it's partially B&T's fault. The "S" means "Slimline". Well, their 7.62 Ti model is 1.75", and that begs the question: Slimmer than what?
I probably wouldn't correlate the weight to strength. Look at the Diligent Defense Enticer S Ti. Standard baffle design constructed with welds which add to the overall weight and it's about 9oz.
556 - 10.5"
308 - 14.5"
300BLK supers - 7"
300BLK subs - 5"
300WM - 20"
300RUM - 24"
With FEA, I'm sure they're removing thickness where it isn't needed and adding it where it is and doing it more efficiently with additive manufacturing and no welds. I do notice a lot of restrictions with 9mm and PCC cans though. My 9mm can, which is heavier than the Diligent Defense, is 3D printed in titanium and I can't shoot anything but 9mm through it. Not rated for 300 blackout subs or supers. But it's modular and on my LTT, I can run reduced baffles and not need a booster. Everything's a tradeoff.
556 - 10.5"
308 - 14.5"
300BLK supers - 7"
300BLK subs - 5"
300WM - 20"
300RUM - 24"
With FEA, I'm sure they're removing thickness where it isn't needed and adding it where it is and doing it more efficiently with additive manufacturing and no welds. I do notice a lot of restrictions with 9mm and PCC cans though. My 9mm can, which is heavier than the Diligent Defense, is 3D printed in titanium and I can't shoot anything but 9mm through it. Not rated for 300 blackout subs or supers. But it's modular and on my LTT, I can run reduced baffles and not need a booster. Everything's a tradeoff.
I am shopping for an LBP / Flow type can for 9mm and 300 BLK subs and supers. Ti, and some standard spec mount thread: Charlie, Bravo or Alpha. True Slimline, say 1.5" diameter or less. Less is better.
I want to use it on 9mm handgun, and then be able to use it in semi auto low use mode for 300 Subs and Supers. That is, a slim handgun can that can also be used for limited PCC up to 300 BLK Supers.
It's the 300 Supers requirement that kicks me to the kerb.
CAT MOB is out, won't handle supers. Mojave 9 is out, no HUB thread. Spectre 9 is out, no 300 Supers.
I own 2 of the OCL Lithium, and they are just inside my fatty spec at 1.5" diameter, but no one recommends it for handgun, and it's not a Flow type can. I would repurpose them to PCC if I could find something that works for me. I'm considering Ti as the material because it's a low power role, and I don't care about the sparking issue for the intended use case.
Anything I'm missing that I should look at?
Edit: I was conversing with my LGS NFA guru today, explaining what I was looking for, and he pulls out the SiCo Spectre 9. We look at the website info about it, and it will handle low rate 300 Supers. Perfect! Sold! I bought it.
I want to use it on 9mm handgun, and then be able to use it in semi auto low use mode for 300 Subs and Supers. That is, a slim handgun can that can also be used for limited PCC up to 300 BLK Supers.
It's the 300 Supers requirement that kicks me to the kerb.
CAT MOB is out, won't handle supers. Mojave 9 is out, no HUB thread. Spectre 9 is out, no 300 Supers.
I own 2 of the OCL Lithium, and they are just inside my fatty spec at 1.5" diameter, but no one recommends it for handgun, and it's not a Flow type can. I would repurpose them to PCC if I could find something that works for me. I'm considering Ti as the material because it's a low power role, and I don't care about the sparking issue for the intended use case.
Anything I'm missing that I should look at?
Edit: I was conversing with my LGS NFA guru today, explaining what I was looking for, and he pulls out the SiCo Spectre 9. We look at the website info about it, and it will handle low rate 300 Supers. Perfect! Sold! I bought it.
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Been really happy with my Sig 5.56 SLX-C QD so far. I believe you can get a Huxwrx can cheaper though.
It did not show how that knife was made, but he did some neat stuff with it. But I get your point: It was made of a very porous metal, and the gas flowing seemed evenly distributed.
Well that's very interesting, I was working up to buying a Ti ODB as my first foray into low back pressure cans, specifically thinking it would be a good fit with my SFAR. I had seen the 7.62x39 on their website and kind of took it to mean that it is a shorter can optimized for x39, but I didn't realize that it wasn't rated for anything larger, that's a total no go for me. It's been a long time since I remember seeing a .30 cal main line can that wasn't rated for even .308.
Their website is pretty terrible at actually conveying useful information, so maybe I'm not totally to blame for the mix-up.
You are not to blame at all.
I was set to buy this as a 7.62x51 can, until I was told in writing by CAT CS :
"We make purpose built suppressors, with no apologies about it. We don't do one size fits all. We would love for you to be a customer of CAT, but we must stress that we make very specialized suppressors for specific use cases. Changing course from that is something we are not going to do. We'd rather make a dozen suppressors that dominate in their field than make four that cover a lot of bases decently. "
That is a direct quote from CAT CS.
I took them at their word. So, if it's not stated on their product web page then it does not fit the purpose.
CAT ODB is 7.62x39, and no more than that. I relent slightly from that stance by pointing out that the Inconel and Ti versions both share the same description page. The Inconel mode does have a 5.56 Nato rating for a minimum 10" barrel.
That should tell you all you need to know about ODB. I walked away disappointed.
I was set to buy this as a 7.62x51 can, until I was told in writing by CAT CS :
"We make purpose built suppressors, with no apologies about it. We don't do one size fits all. We would love for you to be a customer of CAT, but we must stress that we make very specialized suppressors for specific use cases. Changing course from that is something we are not going to do. We'd rather make a dozen suppressors that dominate in their field than make four that cover a lot of bases decently. "
That is a direct quote from CAT CS.
I took them at their word. So, if it's not stated on their product web page then it does not fit the purpose.
CAT ODB is 7.62x39, and no more than that. I relent slightly from that stance by pointing out that the Inconel and Ti versions both share the same description page. The Inconel mode does have a 5.56 Nato rating for a minimum 10" barrel.
That should tell you all you need to know about ODB. I walked away disappointed.
I may be wrong but I don't think they make anything, they design and market their cans. I think CGS manufactures for them.
Yes, CGS and CAT are mostly design and marketing. Serializing and engraving is also done.
The CGS and CAT suppressors are manufactured by https://www.i3dmfg.com/ it was stated on their Instagram.
It is believed that Dead Air also now uses i3d manufacturing for their upcoming Nomad DMLS line.
Watched this yesterday and while not scientific, it was pretty interesting and he did flash tests in the dark as well.
Especially given B&T’s size. Was a bit disappointed he didn’t have the Radical Defense to test.
I learned a few things watching it. 5.56 10.3" suppressed about relatively equal DBa to an unsuppressed 16". I would not have guessed that. His overall pick was the Cobalt Kinetics Scrambler, and I would not have guessed that either. I had not heard of them before today. I was surprised about how good the Huxwrx Flow 556 (K can, I think?) did in this comparo, and equally surprised about how poorly the new B&T can performed given it's size compared to the others in the test.
I do not pay attention to noise reduction when it comes to suppressors on rifles, what is the point? To me they redirect gas forward in the system and ideally they negate muzzle flash. I don't think that I own a can for a rifle that makes things hearing safe without ear pro.
I always wear ear pro with supers regardless but it still makes for a much more pleasant shooting experience for you as well as those shooting next to you. I pay attention to sound reduction ratings for HD purposes.
I thought they all did decently in the flash department. The RC3 has had a flame thrower rep for a while now but it did decently in this video. The Huxwrx is stainless unlike the big brother Flow 762 which is titanium. I don't notice any sparks out of mine any longer but I'm not shooting in the dark either.
Cobalt made the only aftermarket muzzle device for Huxwrx suppressors so I was familiar with them, just not their new cans. I personally think the author went in with a slant towards their suppressors but if they work as advertised, and are that light, the ball's been moved yet again. Good for us!
I thought they all did decently in the flash department. The RC3 has had a flame thrower rep for a while now but it did decently in this video. The Huxwrx is stainless unlike the big brother Flow 762 which is titanium. I don't notice any sparks out of mine any longer but I'm not shooting in the dark either.
Cobalt made the only aftermarket muzzle device for Huxwrx suppressors so I was familiar with them, just not their new cans. I personally think the author went in with a slant towards their suppressors but if they work as advertised, and are that light, the ball's been moved yet again. Good for us!
I cannot emphasize enough that ear pro should be worn with any suppressor that is not under 130dB at ear. Even at 130dB, only for a small number of shots inside an 8-hour period. You really need to be under 120dB going into your ear-holes to be unlimited on the number of shots in an 8-hour period according to the CDC/NIOSH. I expect some more information coming in the near future that will address hearing protection from gunfire, and the number of exposures that will be considered "safe" within certain SPL ranges. The old "140dB is hearing safe" is barely true for a single exposure.
I understand your point of view. So far, that unicorn can has not appeared in any reasonable manageable size. Not Yet, maybe not ever when dealing with expanding gasses from burning propellent.
Well we all know how to do it, look at the mark 12 can. Build an obnoxiously long can that focus on redirecting the sound down range (away from the shooter). I still doubt they are hearing safe but way better then normal cans. The trade off is length, maneuverability, weight, ect. None of the cans are going to do anything about something ripping through the sound barrier at 3,000 fps, you are going to get a crack.
That's not the unicorn I had in view.
No, no one makes a hearing safe, below 120 dB at ear canal entry, every shot incl 1st round while using subs, in a "manageable" size format that a hunter or solider would want to carry. Low back pressure for minimizing gas to the face (medical concerns about toxic carcinigens exposure), with some standard mounting thread interface to allow mounting type options, pick-a-metal to print the labyrinth.
*That* unicorn I have not seen yet. Or, I think I would have bought it, or at least read about it. If you know of a model like that, please tell me. (I will go look at the Mark 12 since you pitched it).
I do agree with you about your point of nothing to be done about Supersonic crack becoming or being made to be non-damaging to the ear. At least, not in Newtonian physics land. Supers will always be damaging in a cumulative sense.
Speaking of best flow cans, I bought a 2nd SiCo Spectre9 today. That thing is amazing for its size and cartridge class.
They did do well in the flash dept!
That was another surprising take away for me, from that video. I think partly due to the products being Inconel. He showed a Ti can (Huxwrx?) present at the testing, but I think I remember, he never shot it.
I agree the RC3 has had a flamethrower rep, esp compared to RC2. At the RC3 price point, I was kinda wondering why they were still selling? Then I see this and have the AHa moment. Oh, that's why...
Additive process Ti cans were a real issue for me earlier due to sparking, but no longer. My opinion for Ti manufactured cans has become:
For Hi Power Factor types: Hunting, PRS, Range work (sparking present but ignoreable) and Low Power Factor types: Handgun / Pistol below, but up to about 300 BLK Supers (no sparking apparent). For those use cases, Ti makes great sense.
For Hi Power Factor types: Solidering and Fighting (position giveaway), Prone Hunting in grassland (fire hazard), and Handgun / Pistol above 300 Supers (ie fighting guns). Maybe choose a different material so to not easily give away your position.
I chose Inconel .vs Ti when my use case fell into these buckets.
Cobalt Kinetics does not make any products with a standard thread interface. Their cans dropped out of my selections based on that.
We have suppressors in our rental fleet, if you use them per directions they are fine. We have multiple titanium cans with 10k rounds on more that are chugging along. Just don't put them on a SMG or mag dump them multiples of times.
Sorry I’m not clear, are you saying you have direct experience with the cobalt scrambler?
No to cobalt, yes with titanium cans. I am jaded but most of them are all kind of the same at least in terms of their tolerance to failure. How I judge suppressors for rifles.
1) Mounting system, I prefer QD systems that resist carbon lock.
2) POI shift, the less the better.
3) How sturdy are they, Inconel, Steel, Titanium
4) Flash suppression/mitigation
5) Sound suppression
I looked at our web page and we currently have 30 suppressors for rent, we have not had failures under normal use from any of them. We run the Inconel/Steel on our machine gun rentals. When you are behind the rifle, they all sound about the same (not hearing safe, need ear pro). We have never had a baffle strike but we check them before we put them in service. Yankee Hill (for instance) makes great value suppressors. I personally own three Surefire and three Huxwrx cans. My current favorite design are the hub systems.
Thanks, I think we’re missing each other here, I own titanium cans myself. Just looking for experiences with the cobalt since it’s new to market.
and the crs is only 19 light ounces per my wife kitchen scaleSome of us go to the gym....jk
Maybe knights lists the weight with a muzzle device, it sure is a good looking can
It's not flow through, but it's low back pressure, designed for use specifically with AR-15 systems to reduce signature.
Apparently LE have been loving it for their applications.
@hic28 is with Abel, and can help you out further if needed.
I’m really happy with the new KAC options. They work great, love the mounting system and yes they get used in auto. Cyclic rate hardly changes with or without the can when firing in auto. However, I do have a Cat ODB 718 in transfer and curious how it will compare.
It has been our experience, we have an RC2 and a the KAC QDC cans in our rental fleet. Both of them have well over 100k rounds through them without a failure. I think the KAC mounting system is better then the Surefire. I would trust both of them with my life in terms of the crazy reliability of the system.Some of us go to the gym....jk
Your right its heavy though. The baffles are the thickest ive seen and Ive been selling silencers for years. Very happy with flash performance its second to none.
Please put a Sierra5 in your rental rotation. Just for shits and giggles. It's a good example of material being pointless without a good design.
And this just dropped, at least I'd not seen it before. Huxwrx 556 Flow in inconel, for auto use. https://www.capitolarmory.com/huxwrx-flow-556-mg-machine-gun-inconel-flow-through-silencer.html
And this just dropped, at least I'd not seen it before. Huxwrx 556 Flow in inconel, for auto use. https://www.capitolarmory.com/huxwrx-flow-556-mg-machine-gun-inconel-flow-through-silencer.html
