Rifle Scopes Best Law Enforcement optic?

M

MCBLACKOUT

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Minuteman
Sep 4, 2012
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#1
I've been a long time researcher of this forum but haven't had to post any because a lot of information is already covered here. I would like to know what all of your experienced opinions are for the best all around Law Enforcement budget optic? As any of you with experience know, LE guys and departments budget are not doing very well these days.

I am building my own rifle and so far I have a Remington 700 SPS tactical in a HS Precision stock, Harris bipod, Badger 20MOA base, SS fixed 10x mildot reticle with MOA adjustment. This is too much optic for my needs, especially LE.

I am currently looking at purchasing the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50. I have read a lot of good and some negative things about this scope and company. In LE I probably would never be tasked for a shot longer than 200-300 yards and mostly inside 100. However I love hunting and sometimes have the opportunity to shoot 400-500 max.

Can I get some input from anyone currently running an optic on a precious gun used for LE?

Thanks
 
#2
I've been a long time researcher of this forum but haven't had to post any because a lot of information is already covered here. I would like to know what all of your experienced opinions are for the best all around Law Enforcement budget optic? As any of you with experience know, LE guys and departments budget are not doing very well these days.

I am building my own rifle and so far I have a Remington 700 SPS tactical in a HS Precision stock, Harris bipod, Badger 20MOA base, SS fixed 10x mildot reticle with MOA adjustment. This is too much optic for my needs, especially LE.

I am currently looking at purchasing the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50. I have read a lot of good and some negative things about this scope and company. In LE I probably would never be tasked for a shot longer than 200-300 yards and mostly inside 100. However I love hunting and sometimes have the opportunity to shoot 400-500 max.

Can I get some input from anyone currently running an optic on a precious gun used for LE?

Thanks
Click to expand...


Build for over 700 Plus LEO Teams World Wide and I would say go with a 4.5 X 14 Leupold 50mm Mark 4 M1 Mil Dot. Illum or None what ever your pocket allows ;) If you would like to speak in detail feel free to give me a call 310-275-8797...


Mike
Tac Ops
 
#3
I used a bushnell 3-12 FFP illum. Mildot for a few years and it worked good for both classes and the few deployments I had with it. My advice focus on the low end magnification and illumination.
 
#4
I like the pst and know a few guys running them who really have nothing bad to say. A few guys on my team have 4.5-14 leupolds and I don't have anything bad to say about it, I prefer the TMR though. I have a 5.5-22 nightforce and I HATE it. I have yet to have a call out where I didn't wish for a lower mag range.

For me, the illuminated leupold mk 6 TMR 3-18x44 is the perfect LE optic, but not at the price they are asking for them. I am looking hard at nightforce 2.5-10x42 or 3-15.

My preferred specs are low mag <4, top mag>10, weight <25oz, illuminated, matching turrets, and side paralax.
 
#5
No way would I put a PST on a duty gun, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen if it shits out. I agree with Mike, MK4 is the gold standard for LE scopes and you would have your ass covered pretty well despite purchasing it yourself if it went south.
 
#6
redneckbmxer24 said:
No way would I put a PST on a duty gun, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen if it shits out. I agree with Mike, MK4 is the gold standard for LE scopes and you would have your ass covered pretty well despite purchasing it yourself if it went south.
Click to expand...
First of all, under what legal theory does one get sued when a scope breaks? Exactly! Kindly don't make things up, doing that is not giving helpful advice.

Second, Leupold is indeed a law enforcement standard: A few years ago, at a LE sniper school, an instructor set up a grid for other officers to check their scopes. Of the seventeen scopes evaluated twelve failed to subtend correctly against the hard stop. That’s a 70% failure rate. Of those twelve, three were able to be dialed down to correct the subtension. This left nine of the fourteen (64% of the scopes) that would not range correctly without deriving a unique multiplier for each scope. Guess what manufacturer made those nine scopes. One can only hope that they are not in operational use and were returned for repair or replacement under the lifetime warranty.
 
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#7
I would prioritize features like this for a Leo or mil scope:

1) Durability
2) Ease of use under high stress
3) Reticle easily and quickly used for holdovers without needing to dial
4) Low end of mag range very usable, no tunneling or distortion
5) mil/mil, if not already trained on mil/moa

The Nightforce scopes like 2.5-10x32 and new x42 would be top picks if budget allowed. While I'm not a huge Mk4 fan for civilian use due to value vs other brands, they are proven, tuff and light weight and with Leo discount make them much more attractive.
For a budget, you'd have to be careful not to sacrifice too much, there is too much at stake. I'd look at the SS 3-9x42 and the SS 3-15x42. They have excellent durability track records, though the 3-15 is still new. The Bushy elite 3-12x with G2 reticle would be great I think. Sightron SIII 3.5-10x should be top end resolution and fairly tuff. The PST's May or may not be considered durable, depends who you ask. I wouldn't feel as comfortable with one as I would a Leupold or Nightforce, for sure. The 2.5-10x32 would be the model I'd look at from Vortex, until they ever come out with a Razor 3-12x44 or something awesome like that. The Leupy VX-R 3-9x40 is kind of the poor mans mk4, and I'd take a look through one and see if you like the reticle or not. It may be a top contender for a budget Leo scope (almost an oxymoron though).
I don't know I'd be interested in any others under $900. My 2cents
 
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#8
I like the NF 2.5-10. I like the SS 3-9 if your budget doesn't allow for the NF. That Bushnell 3-12 isn't bad either. With Vortex, I would restrict myself to the top of the line.

But there's nothing wrong with the 10x SS you already have.
 
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#9
Graham said:
First of all, under what legal theory does one get sued when a scope breaks? Exactly! Kindly don't make things up, doing that is not giving helpful advice.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in but agencies are getting sued for decisions they make every day. This same exact scenario happened near me a few years back. A LEO bought some POS (was a Barska or something like that) for his personally owned duty gun, somehow managed to get it through qualification and it broke at some point before he took a shot that resulted in a lady being critically wounded. There was a lawsuit and they won, the department now has an approved gear list for pretty much everything you can think of.
 
#10
redneckbmxer24 said:
I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in but agencies are getting sued for decisions they make every day. This same exact scenario happened near me a few years back. A LEO bought some POS (was a Barska or something like that) for his personally owned duty gun, somehow managed to get it through qualification and it broke at some point before he took a shot that resulted in a lady being critically wounded. There was a lawsuit and they won, the department now has an approved gear list for pretty much everything you can think of.
Click to expand...
There's so much wrong with what you just posted.

But I suppose there's no point in my arguing with your career experience in tactical law enforcement operations and your legal credentials.

So, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, if you are not willing to answer my original question could you at least post a citation to that case so that I can incorporate it into my lectures and training courses.

Thanks.
 
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#11
You want legal theory? LE agency lets an officer blindly choose equipment that only has to pass a qualification course that may or may not be a joke. Said equipment breaks afterwards and is an obvious piece of crap and causes injury or death to a bystandard. That's negligence and similar cases have been won.
 
#12
redneckbmxer24 said:
You want legal theory? LE agency lets an officer blindly choose equipment that only has to pass a qualification course that may or may not be a joke. Said equipment breaks afterwards and is an obvious piece of crap and causes injury or death to a bystandard. That's negligence and similar cases have been won.
Click to expand...
Did the case you were talking about state that kind of a negligence claim? Did it result in a judgment against the officer? And could you give me those similar cases?

Thanks.
 
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#13
Good God, stop derailing the poor guys thread.

OP, I understand your plight, as I am in the same boat.
You want to get the highest quality gear within your price range.

Personally, if it was choosing between a PST and a Weaver Tactical, the weaver wins hands down.

I would pony up the other hundred or so and opt for the Bushnell 3-12x though.
Yes, I would prefer a bit more magnification, but in all reality a good quality 3-9X is sufficient for MOST LE deployments.

I prefer a FFP scope as when the pressure is on, your magnification setting is one less thing to fuck up, however, with FFP you SHOULD have illumination as the reticle appears small and thin on low power and will probably be indistinguishable at low magnification against a dark background.

If you get with Scott at Liberty Optics you can purchase through pay-pal with six months interest free.

Leupold has their mil/le pricing, this makes the VX-R 3-9 VERY affordable, though it is SFP.
This program also makes the MK 4 4.5-14 FFP scopes affordable.

PM your work email to me and I will forward the contact info to you.
 
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#14
OP,

You might want to post this in the LE forum, maybe with specific information about your AO, your present role, any policy constraints, and your intended use for the rifle. Then ask the other guys what they are using for the same purpose, and what they like or dislike about that optic.
 
#18
Something with the constitution etched in the ffp in a Horus-like arrangement would be ideal. In all seriousness, I would think something that could go down to 2.5x or less with a lot of <50 yard training.
 
#19
Graham has pretty much nailed it. You can call me a brand whore all you want but I know what works and is reliable.The only two I would recommend are Night Force and Leupold for a work gun that wont kill the bank account. I have a NF 3.5 -15 NXS. I would not go any higher on the magnification than that. Call Leupold and talk with their LEO Sales Division, you will be glad you made the call. Either two, NF or Leuy will make you a happy camper. Ref: your 20 moa base question, why? Correct me if I am wrong but the added height allows for dialing up with a scope for long distances, say a 1,000 or more. You wont be shooting at that range as a DM to justify buying one. Remember the ASA specs only give the distances that Police DM's have shot a suspect. It does not list the distances that they have had to set up because of cover / concealment , terrain ect. We had a call out where our guys were at 200 yds for a reason. The last one I was one before going out on a medical I was at 35 yds away under a trampoline getting ate up by mosquitoes. Just some food for thought. Be Safe out there.
 
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#20
I could be more than wrong but doesnt it make it harder to zero at closer distances with the 20 moa base? Not to mention he mentions that his fsrthest shot would be 2-300 yards in a duty scenario. What happens if he needs to take a precision shot at closer than 100? And can't confirm his zero? I just think that a 0 moa base would probably be a better starting point. Now im sure youre going to explain why im wrong though
 
#21
Id like to expand on why illumination would be a feature that I would look for. From personal experience your reticle becomes very hard to focus on when you have screens, drapes, etc. and ambient light on the exterior of a building.
 
#22
If by best you mean most prevalent... most used... I think there is a clear winner...


download.jpg
 
#23
NateB said:
I could be more than wrong but doesnt it make it harder to zero at closer distances with the 20 moa base? Not to mention he mentions that his fsrthest shot would be 2-300 yards in a duty scenario. What happens if he needs to take a precision shot at closer than 100? And can't confirm his zero? I just think that a 0 moa base would probably be a better starting point. Now im sure youre going to explain why im wrong though
Click to expand...

Staggering amount of mis-information here... modern optics have no issue at all with a 100 zero using a 20MOA base. In fact scopes are designed to work that way.

What if the guy wants to take outside training and heads to facility that shoots beyond 300 yards ? Most schools, LE focused or otherwise, shoot at distance as a confidence builder. So limiting your base because you only plan on working inside 300 is short sighted.
 
#27
I honestly have no idea to be perfectly honest. Im sure I could come up with an answer if you really need one I dont know if youre out to prove something if so just say it. I get the vibe you are out to just belittle me at this point
 
#29
NateB said:
I honestly have no idea to be perfectly honest. Im sure I could come up with an answer if you really need one I dont know if youre out to prove something if so just say it. I get the vibe you are out to just belittle me at this point
Click to expand...

He's not trying to belittle you but merely point out why a 20 MOA base may come in handy if you have to take an extremely close shot.
 
#31
When people train for these shots it's common to dial so they know exact where it lands. Sure you can wing-it but that is not always the best practice and the goal should be to use best practices.

Knowing your mechanical offset is key, but visualizing it through adjustments helps re-enforce the lesson.

A precision rifle shot was taken at 11ft 1 inch in distance, using the guy with the M4s shoulder. Why didn't the guy with the M4 take the shot and wing it, instead of calling the Precision Rifle Guy into the trailer ?
 
#32
Black Ops said:
Build for over 700 Plus LEO Teams World Wide and I would say go with a 4.5 X 14 Leupold 50mm Mark 4 M1 Mil Dot. Illum or None what ever your pocket allows ;) If you would like to speak in detail feel free to give me a call 310-275-8797...


Mike
Tac Ops
Click to expand...


Why would you recommend having the turrets and reticle in different units?
 
#34
ptrlcop said:
I like the pst and know a few guys running them who really have nothing bad to say. A few guys on my team have 4.5-14 leupolds and I don't have anything bad to say about it, I prefer the TMR though. I have a 5.5-22 nightforce and I HATE it. I have yet to have a call out where I didn't wish for a lower mag range.

For me, the illuminated leupold mk 6 TMR 3-18x44 is the perfect LE optic, but not at the price they are asking for them. I am looking hard at nightforce 2.5-10x42 or 3-15.

My preferred specs are low mag <4, top mag>10, weight <25oz, illuminated, matching turrets, and side paralax.
Click to expand...

The odd thing is that the 3-18x44 TMR isn't on their LE program. Granted its on the website, with a part number and a retail price. But its not in the LE listing. I even e-mailed Tia Spiering, one of Leupold's Tactical Sales Reps, who informed me there were errors on the website, the list I got via e-mail was correct, and the 3-18x44 TMR isn't a option. Keep in mind the non-illuminated TMR isn't listed on the retail site...

But low and behold, there was an illuminated TMR 3-18x44mm for sale a few days ago and was posted on this and a couple of other websites. Same part number on the box as was on the website.

How can one give a company, which can't even get its marketing together, a few thousand dollars and expect delivery of a problem free product which by its very nature requires very advanced mechanical engineering?

Keeping in mind this ignores the $1k price of the illumination option, which is a whole topic in itself.

For me, the Nightforce 2.5-10x42 is looking better and better.
 
#35
Late to the party - but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I've used Leupold 3.5-10x40 M1s for many years. The longer I do this, the less I think they are ideal. The M5 turrets help, but there are better animals out there.

FFP vs SFP - I go against the grain - I don't like FFP for LE work. The reticle gets tiny when you dial the magnification down (I know it's the same size relative to the target - but that doesn't make it easy to see). Wide FOV is your friend in most cases, and at low magnification, you can't see the mil dots or hashes anyway.

What I settled on after trying lots of scopes (nothing terribly high-end - I'm a cop) including Luppy, NF, IOR, Weaver and I'm sure some others, is the Nightforce 3.5-15x50 NXS with the .1 mil HS zero stop turrets. I've done about a year of training (two days a month) and several callouts. I haven't found anything I don't like about it. Matching reticle and turrets, I can see what I need to, the zero stop is great (I have mine set for my 100 yard zero so I can't mess it up), very reliable - and the price is on par with most Leupold stuff now.

If I were to get money to replace all the scopes at our PD, I think I'd be hard pressed to choose something different. Of course, I haven't played with the S&Bs, Leicas, or anything else really high-end. Were I to do so, I might change my mind - but I'm very happy with what I've got now.
 
#36
redneckbmxer24 said:
No way would I put a PST on a duty gun, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen if it shits out. I agree with Mike, MK4 is the gold standard for LE scopes and you would have your ass covered pretty well despite purchasing it yourself if it went south.
Click to expand...


That isn't my understanding at all.

I recently had a member of the FBI HRT compliment my optic. Not to mention shooting a 100 qualification with it.

First of all, I have never heard of a case where a malfunctioning optic caused a lawsuit.

Second, regular shooting and qualifications should identify issues well before a call out.

Also, Leupold can and have failed while in service. All machines fail.

I am not aware of any field failure statistics that place the PST over the MK4 for failure rates.

I would be interested in hearing about those figures if you did.
 
#38
NateB said:
I get the vibe you are out to just belittle me at this point
Click to expand...
No one is trying to belittle you. I ask the question to promote discussion. There's a point to it, and it's not about dialing versus holding.

Not directed at you, but often these days if one refuses to spoon-feed people they think you are picking on them. Government service aside, no one gave me any awards or trinkets simply for participation, so I never felt left out if I had to do more work than the next guy in order to discover something.
 
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#39
bp7178 said:
The odd thing is that the 3-18x44 TMR isn't on their LE program. Granted its on the website, with a part number and a retail price. But its not in the LE listing. I even e-mailed Tia Spiering, one of Leupold's Tactical Sales Reps, who informed me there were errors on the website, the list I got via e-mail was correct, and the 3-18x44 TMR isn't a option. Keep in mind the non-illuminated TMR isn't listed on the retail site...

But low and behold, there was an illuminated TMR 3-18x44mm for sale a few days ago and was posted on this and a couple of other websites. Same part number on the box as was on the website.


How can one give a company, which can't even get its marketing together, a few thousand dollars and expect delivery of a problem free product which by its very nature requires very advanced mechanical engineering?

Keeping in mind this ignores the $1k price of the illumination option, which is a whole topic in itself.

For me, the Nightforce 2.5-10x42 is looking better and better.
Click to expand...

I have the current 2013 MIL/LEO spreadsheet direct from Leupold and the Mark 6 3-18 TMR is on there, the ILL version is not However
 
#40
Yeah, that's what I'm saying . The Leupold rep told me the illuminated TMR doesn't exist...I'm just not so inclined to give Leupold my hard earned money until they get things sorted out a little better.

All that aside, I agree with the other poster who expressed dislike of a FFP reticle vs a SFP for LE use. Overall, I see my ideal option being a. 2.5-10x42 NXS with a T-1 on an offset on a 18" SPR type .

At first glance, I'm not a huge fan of the MIL-R reticle. I like the simplicity of the MOAR, but wish it had mil divisions. I may go with the standard mil-dot w/ zero stop .1 mil turrets.
 
#41
Let me offer some opinions on a few items from both the OP and other issues raised through the thread. I have been an operational member of the Tactical Team from 1999 on and assigned as a sniper for six years. I am NOT saying I know everything, or even most things (in this game the education had better never stop) but I have learned a lot as our team has gone through growing pains. So first to the OP's question, Leupold or NF seem to be the standard. We ran MK4s for nine years and recently moved to the NF ATACR after a long T/E process. Our team has found MOA and SFP to be ideal for our use and the MOAR reticle is my favorite for our application. I also have nothing but good to say about the Leupold Mk4 and actually bought mine back from the PD and it's still in the family collection. Our team also uses the Remington 700, 20 MOA base and after going through legal changed stocks to the AICS with no modifications to the action etc. As for the PST in LE use and "liability" issues what I can say, from experience, is the lawyers will crawl through your TRAINING program and want ALL documentation of training and monthly training as well as EVERY qualification you had. Next will be the SOP and COC etc. and then the maintenance records of the firearm. As long as the equipment is maintained and applicable to the task at hand the manufacturer will have little to do with the outcome. Not saying $5 rings on a $150 scope will cut it, but any quality offering will not upset the liability cart and the PST/Weaver and SS line SHOULD be acceptable. I stress should as anything the little gerbils can get there tiny claws into to to raise doubt they will, hence our team sticking with the big two, NF and Leupold.

Now onto the 300 yard thing. Our team shoots from 20-500 monthly (in fact we try to shoot weekly but 2-3 times seems the norm) and three to four times a year we run up to 1000. On deployments we have set up as close as 12 yards and as far as 540 so never think 50-100. We also dial in once set up and even though we train using holds our practice is to dial in. So I suggest an extensive long book starting at 15-20 out to as far as you can go in 25 yard increments for your seasonal temp changes. Bottom line ALWAYS know exactly what to dial in at any range and weather conditions and then pray that nothing changed between sessions.

Anything further I will save for postings in the LE/MIL section but what I really want to stress here is that training and documentation is FAR more important then a $650 Weaver tactical scope over a $2300 NF ATACR. If your training in on line, documentation kept up and your firearms properly maintained I highly doubt a PST or Weaver will put you on the hook. So train, document and make sure your weapons and optics are maintained.

Sully
 
#42
MCBLACKOUT said:
I've been a long time researcher of this forum but haven't had to post any because a lot of information is already covered here. I would like to know what all of your experienced opinions are for the best all around Law Enforcement budget optic? As any of you with experience know, LE guys and departments budget are not doing very well these days.

I am building my own rifle and so far I have a Remington 700 SPS tactical in a HS Precision stock, Harris bipod, Badger 20MOA base, SS fixed 10x mildot reticle with MOA adjustment. This is too much optic for my needs, especially LE.

I am currently looking at purchasing the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50. I have read a lot of good and some negative things about this scope and company. In LE I probably would never be tasked for a shot longer than 200-300 yards and mostly inside 100. However I love hunting and sometimes have the opportunity to shoot 400-500 max.

Can I get some input from anyone currently running an optic on a precious gun used for LE?

Thanks
Click to expand...

You must work for a small department if your paying for and building your own gun for work. I'm retired from a major department here in South Florida, we were not allowed to use anything not provided by them. They issued everything you needed including your pistol (Glock). And by the way, SWAT team used Rem 700 w/MK4's. You know, in 28 years on the department I can't remember any SWAT sniper shooting anybody with their rifle.....Good luck....
 
#43
Wow, I didn't expect so many replies so fast. You guys and this forum are awesome and offered several valid points.

Yes I work for a smaller department just outside of a larger city where the daytime population is 500,000. We are growing as a department and city as we are on the list for top fastest growing cities.

I am building this rifle to get a head start, and begin practicing with it to become extremely proficient and plan on going through more than 1 LE precision school. It will not be immediately deployed into duty use, but I wanted to build it the exact same way as if being used on Swat or Srt so I don't have to rebuild later.

I agree with needing a lower power, and the new NF 2.5-10 caught my eye quickly just can't afford it right now. At this point I would rather spend 1,000 dollars on ammo and 600 on a scope than 1,600 on just a scope. I may have the wrong thinking though?

The NF 3-15 seems like a good choice also. I agree with the above post about your training and records being the most important. From my experience around this part of the world, lawyers are going to sue for everything and pick apart anything you do. Train and become confident and proficient and let your attorneys worry about court.
 
#44
peterh said:
You know, in 28 years on the department I can't remember any SWAT sniper shooting anybody with their rifle.....Good luck....
Click to expand...


What's the point? In 28 years how many hundreds of hours did they spend looking through their scopes providing Intel to command? Shooting people is not the only, or even the primary function of a sniper.
 
#45
ptrlcop said:
What's the point? In 28 years how many hundreds of hours did they spend looking through their scopes providing Intel to command? Shooting people is not the only, or even the primary function of a sniper.
Click to expand...

Probably that a set of binoculars would have been a better use of taxpayer dollars.
 
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#46
Dtarget said:
Probably that a set of binoculars would have been a better use of taxpayer dollars.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

Although it is off topic, I would like to explain why.

An OB/S is intended to serve multiple vital roles and be flexible in their engagement and observation distances. As a matter of fact, all SRT team members should be as flexible in their capabilities as possible. That would reduce the cost to the tax payers.

Having a trained observer with a nice set of binos would both increase the cost of operation, and reduce the team's capabilities.

This sounds like the opposite of what the taxpayers, and more importantly, the hostages and other victims, would want.
 
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