Boeing 737 Max at it again

[jmp1]

Glad that phone landed safely .

Now we wait for plug to pop up on ebay

Imagine walking down the road minding your own mutha fawking business and getting your noggin caved in by some pos iphone....lol

 

[Threadcutter308]

Imagine walking down the road minding your own mutha fawking business and getting your noggin caved in by some pos iphone....lol

 

[rjacobs]

And by the way the over water thing has everything to do with crashing and nothing to do with pressurization…..

I would rather ditch in a body of water that attempt to do a gear up off field landing... chances of success in water are pretty damn high if done properly. Chances of success doing an off field landing are not nearly as good... MAYBE in a Cessna, but definitely not in a large jet. There is evidence of a few purposeful ditchings in the past few years being 100% successful.

 

[7.62willdo]

I would rather ditch in a body of water that attempt to do a gear up off field landing... chances of success in water are pretty damn high if done properly. Chances of success doing an off field landing are not nearly as good... MAYBE in a Cessna, but definitely not in a large jet. There is evidence of a few purposeful ditchings in the past few years being 100% successful.

I would rather not crash at all….

 

[Ison]

 

[308pirate]

And by the way the over water thing has everything to do with crashing and nothing to do with pressurization….. if you don’t understand that leave this conversation…..

What's your FAA Airman's Certificate number?

 

[308pirate]

You know as well (or better) than I do that a lot of those places claim to have a process-dependent system, but ultimately there is some people-dependence at various spots and thus the loss of key personal proves catastrophic.

The fact that Spirit fired its CEO a couple of months ago does not suggest that all is well.

It's way too early to determine who might carry the burden of blame on the product side. Feels pretty safe to say that the airline did a good job of demonstrating normalcy bias by keeping the aircraft in service despite multiple warnings of a potential problem. "We get those warnings all the time", cries the peanut gallery - yep, and you better heed every single one if you wish to maintain a 10-sigma record of ensuring that the number of landings equals the number of takeoffs.

I worked for 9 years at another OEM on the other side of the city..........I think I have a good idea of how it goes.

 

[_Windrider_]

I would rather ditch in a body of water that attempt to do a gear up off field landing... chances of success in water are pretty damn high if done properly. Chances of success doing an off field landing are not nearly as good... MAYBE in a Cessna, but definitely not in a large jet. There is evidence of a few purposeful ditchings in the past few years being 100% successful.

Idk man. Some Russian coasted a 320 into a field recently and they flew it out even. I don’t want either. Give me the choice, I just hope it’s daylight for whichever one I have to deal with.

 

[roostercogburn98]

All I know was it was eerily quiet inside for a plane flying at whatever speed it was with a large hole in the side.

6-8 seats away from the door is quiet in just about every aircraft. Just a few aircraft I’ve been in doors open at altitude on for reference

C17, C130, C23, Twin Otter, CH47(all the way up front by the crew chief area is even surprisingly quiet at drip altitude and speed).

 

[vh20]

Everything in hindsight has a different perspective. But I’ll bet they are glad they did cause if that happened halfway to Hawaii in all likelihood could have also ended up in ditching in the pacific because they ran out of fuel.

Exactly

 

[E. Bryant]

I worked for 9 years at another OEM on the other side of the city..........I think I have a good idea of how it goes.

Then you should be well aware of the number of ways in which things can go wrong.

 

[E. Bryant]

Looks like this might not be an isolated problem:

United finds loose bolts on 737 Max 9 planes in wake of Alaska Airlines door plug incident

United Airlines says that it has found loose bolts during inspections of its 737 Max 9 fleet in the wake of a door plug getting blown out of an Alaska Airlines plane.

abcnews.go.com

"Since we began preliminary inspections on Saturday, we have found instances that appear to relate to installation issues in the door plug -- for example, bolts that needed additional tightening"

Can't wait for my next opportunity to use the term "bolts that needed additional tightening".

 

[Hobo Hilton]

OK, a few thoughts from an old shade tree steamfitter / welder.

When you have a pressure vessel with an opening in the side.... Any patch / cover should be installed in such a manner that the more the pressure increases, the tighter the patch is pressed against the vessel.

Appears these covers were attached on the outside of the pressure vessel. As internal pressure increased it forced the covers off.
If these covers were installed on the inside the cabin pressure would have held them tight against the interior wall of the vessel.

JMHO

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Them ESG engineers sure are doing a great job.

Well, math is still racist.

Even if The doors Pop Off. At least the engineers had equal opportunity.

Besides, if you hired the Amish, they wouldn’t be able to design anything fancier than a buggy! So they are out!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Looks like this might not be an isolated problem:

United finds loose bolts on 737 Max 9 planes in wake of Alaska Airlines door plug incident

United Airlines says that it has found loose bolts during inspections of its 737 Max 9 fleet in the wake of a door plug getting blown out of an Alaska Airlines plane.

abcnews.go.com

"Since we began preliminary inspections on Saturday, we have found instances that appear to relate to installation issues in the door plug -- for example, bolts that needed additional tightening"

Can't wait for my next opportunity to use the term "bolts that needed additional tightening".

Torque specs are racist, you hater!

Sirhr

 

[BR7.62]

HO-LEE-FUK

 

[anon]

What is the difference in crashing over land as opposed to crashing over water ?

A twin engine commercial airplane can fly as far as 60 minutes from a suitable airport without needing to comply with ETOPS procedures, three and four engine commercial airplanes (unless you are cargo only then the FAA doesn't give fuck all) can go as far as 180 minutes from a suitable airport without needing to comply with ETOPS procedures.

Not being able to use ETOPS means they could not get the 737 more than 60 minutes from a suitable airport while flying over the water.

All airplanes return to the ground. Some can be reused afterwords.

 

[rjacobs]

OK, a few thoughts from an old shade tree steamfitter / welder.

When you have a pressure vessel with an opening in the side.... Any patch / cover should be installed in such a manner that the more the pressure increases, the tighter the patch is pressed against the vessel.

Appears these covers were attached on the outside of the pressure vessel. As internal pressure increased it forced the covers off.
If these covers were installed on the inside the cabin pressure would have held them tight against the interior wall of the vessel.

JMHO

No, they are "technically" on the inside, although not a true "plug". The fuselage frame has lugs on it. The door has lugs on it. Said door lugs sit INSIDE of the fuselage lugs. So when the aircraft is pressurized the plug does indeed push OUT against the fuselage frame lugs.

 

[308pirate]

Then you should be well aware of the number of ways in which things can go wrong.

I am. And in reality it's nowhere near as many as you and the hobo Hilton idiot seem to think.

I sat my ass down in more than one King Air on its first production acceptance test flight. And yet here I am.

 

[308pirate]

OK, a few thoughts from an old shade tree steamfitter / welder.

When you have a pressure vessel with an opening in the side.... Any patch / cover should be installed in such a manner that the more the pressure increases, the tighter the patch is pressed against the vessel.

Appears these covers were attached on the outside of the pressure vessel. As internal pressure increased it forced the covers off.
If these covers were installed on the inside the cabin pressure would have held them tight against the interior wall of the vessel.

JMHO

Jesus Christ shut the fuck up already.

Nobody cares about your humble opinion.

Wait you're a steamfitter? I thought you were a Nobel laureate economist from all the bullshit you spew on THAT other topic.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

No, they are "technically" on the inside, although not a true "plug". The fuselage frame has lugs on it. The door has lugs on it. Said door lugs sit INSIDE of the fuselage lugs. So when the aircraft is pressurized the plug does indeed push OUT against the fuselage frame lugs.

Homendy said
“We were able to inspect the airframe itself from the exterior and found absolutely no structural damage to the airplane,” she told “CNN This Morning.” “Inside, there was a lot of damage to non-critical components.”


Interesting there was no structural damage if it was "lug to lug".

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/08/us/alaska-airlines-plug-door-found-investigation-monday/index.html

 

[308pirate]

What's your FAA Airman's Certificate number?

Homendy said
“We were able to inspect the airframe itself from the exterior and found absolutely no structural damage to the airplane,” she told “CNN This Morning.” “Inside, there was a lot of damage to non-critical components.”


Interesting there was no structural damage if it was "lug to lug".

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/08/us/alaska-airlines-plug-door-found-investigation-monday/index.html

Are you that "hint hint" idiot?

Lol

 

[7.62willdo]

What's your FAA Airman's Certificate number?

I am a pilot but also an A&P with a lot of hours working on B-737‘s but by all means I will defer to your google expertise…….

 

[NoDopes]

 

[n2ishun]

Looks like this might not be an isolated problem:

United finds loose bolts on 737 Max 9 planes in wake of Alaska Airlines door plug incident

United Airlines says that it has found loose bolts during inspections of its 737 Max 9 fleet in the wake of a door plug getting blown out of an Alaska Airlines plane.

abcnews.go.com

"Since we began preliminary inspections on Saturday, we have found instances that appear to relate to installation issues in the door plug -- for example, bolts that needed additional tightening"

Can't wait for my next opportunity to use the term "bolts that needed additional tightening".

Rapid unscheduled disassembly.

Done.

 

[Caymanboy]

6-8 seats away from the door is quiet in just about every aircraft. Just a few aircraft I’ve been in doors open at altitude on for reference

C17, C130, C123, Twin Otter, CH47(all the way up front by the crew chief area is even surprisingly quiet at drip altitude and speed).

Interesting. I have never had the experience. (Thank you for your service). Just seems odd, wind whipping by at 400+ knots.
But, good to know. Always wanted to try that, but live by the adage. "Why jump out of a perfectly good areoplane".

 

[roostercogburn98]

Interesting. I have never had the experience. (Thank you for your service). Just seems odd, wind whipping by at 400+ knots.
But, good to know. Always wanted to try that, but live by the adage. "Why jump out of a perfectly good areoplane".

Show me a perfectly good airplane and I’ll agree with you lol!!!!!!!!

 

[Mike Casselton]

Looks like this might not be an isolated problem:

United finds loose bolts on 737 Max 9 planes in wake of Alaska Airlines door plug incident

United Airlines says that it has found loose bolts during inspections of its 737 Max 9 fleet in the wake of a door plug getting blown out of an Alaska Airlines plane.

abcnews.go.com

"Since we began preliminary inspections on Saturday, we have found instances that appear to relate to installation issues in the door plug -- for example, bolts that needed additional tightening"

Can't wait for my next opportunity to use the term "bolts that needed additional tightening".

Action Taken - L

 

[Caymanboy]

Show me a perfectly good airplane and I’ll agree with you lol!!!!!!!!

I'd kinda really rather not know. Just let me be comfortable on the fight. And, if my time is up, I had a good ride. )))

 

[308pirate]

I am a pilot but also an A&P with a lot of hours working on B-737‘s but by all means I will defer to your google expertise…….

You better go read what I wrote again seems reading comprehension isn't strong with you.

 

[pmclaine]

Idk man. Some Russian coasted a 320 into a field recently and they flew it out even. I don’t want either. Give me the choice, I just hope it’s daylight for whichever one I have to deal with.

I was going to ask your opinion on Russia's fleet.

I flew Aeroflot in 1988, December, lots of snow in CCCP.

Only plane I recall with house flies in the cabin but they landed that thing on a snow covered field and it oddly felt comforting like I was in an overbuilt tractor the way it handled the rough runway.

My only ain't experience is passenger.

 

[Mr.BR]

 

[_Windrider_]

I was going to ask your opinion on Russia's fleet.

I flew Aeroflot in 1988, December, lots of snow in CCCP.

Only plane I recall with house flies in the cabin but they landed that thing on a snow covered field and it oddly felt comforting like I was in an overbuilt tractor the way it handled the rough runway.

My only ain't experience is passenger.

I would not under any circumstances get on any aircraft operated by a Russian airline anytime soon. Especially Boeing or Airbus.

 

[E. Bryant]

I am. And in reality it's nowhere near as many as you and the hobo Hilton idiot seem to think.

I sat my ass down in more than one King Air on its first production acceptance test flight. And yet here I am.

"Nowhere as many"? Well shit, that's reassuring! One is still too many in this game, as you damn well know. If you or I were involved in this mess, we'd be wearing out several pairs of boots doing gemba walks, because this rot is pervasive throughout the company and its suppliers, and if I heard anyone make a statement like yours, they'd be told to leave the building and stop by the front desk tomorrow for their personal things and some paperwork.

I'm glad that you were able to survive those flights, which of course was the overwhelming statistical likelihood. That happened because no one took the attitude of "nowhere as many" at any point during the development and production of those craft.

I get that you want to come off as cranky and dismissive of anyone's opinion, but it ain't working here. A single missed fastener or misdrilled hole was a defect that should have resulted in corrected action that ensued it never happened again. The fact that these stories remain in the news indicates cultural rot that will likely take years to correct, if ever.

 

[hlee]

Just before this I spent winter break with an engineer from Boeing (in missiles, not aircraft), and he was telling me what a POS Airbus is, and how he wouldn't ride on one.

Yeah, what does he know? Everything he ever designed has exploded midair...

 

[rjacobs]

Homendy said
“We were able to inspect the airframe itself from the exterior and found absolutely no structural damage to the airplane,” she told “CNN This Morning.” “Inside, there was a lot of damage to non-critical components.”


Interesting there was no structural damage if it was "lug to lug".

The NTSB briefing stated the door had damage as if it "translated up before departing"... which would disengage the lugs...

I have never seen one of these particular "doors/plugs" but I said before that every one of these doors designed like this(basically every door on the airplane) drops in from the top and then there is a cam lock action somewhere to hold it in place(or in this case 4 bolts). The reason they drop in from the top is so they dont have room to fall out the bottom. The fail safe is basically just sitting on the floor of the aircraft so the lugs stay in tact, if the locking mechanism fails. So this loose plug basically was able to move up and depart the aircraft.

 

[E. Bryant]

Let's take a quick look at the CV of Boeing:

Calhoun previously served as senior managing director and head of portfolio operations at The Blackstone Group beginning in January 2014. During his time with the investment firm, he focused on creating and driving added-value initiatives with Blackstone’s portfolio company CEOs.

Previously, he also served as executive chairman of the board for Nielsen Holdings from January 2014 to January 2016. He joined Nielsen in 2006 as chief executive officer shortly after it was acquired through a consortium of private equity investors, including Blackstone. Throughout his seven-year Nielsen tenure, Calhoun led the company’s transformation into a leading global information and measurement firm listed on the New York Stock Exchange and Standard & Poor’s 500 Index.

Calhoun began his career at General Electric Company (GE), where he rose to vice chairman of the company and president and chief executive officer of GE Infrastructure, its largest business unit. During his 26 years at GE, he held a number of operating, finance and marketing roles and led multiple business units, including GE Transportation and GE Aircraft Engines.

So this guy rose to the top at GE during the Welsh and Immlet eras, bailed before the 2008 crash when GE was revealed to be effectively insolvent, bounced around the private equity world for about 15 years, and then sat on the Boeing board as stuff fell apart.

Calhoun has a bachelor’s degree in accounting from Virginia Tech.

Dudes with accounting or biz degrees from technical schools are always a bit suss, if we're being honest. All too often they got into those programs after failing out of an engineering program.

 

[Mr.BR]

Boeing spent the last decade replacing their engineers in the leadership heirarchy with non-technical management to focus on boosting shareholder returns (stock buybacks) instead of building safe products.


Wonder who the new scape goat will be some illegal working at Spirit

 

[Hobo Hilton]

The NTSB briefing stated the door had damage as if it "translated up before departing"... which would disengage the lugs...

I have never seen one of these particular "doors/plugs" but I said before that every one of these doors designed like this(basically every door on the airplane) drops in from the top and then there is a cam lock action somewhere to hold it in place(or in this case 4 bolts). The reason they drop in from the top is so they dont have room to fall out the bottom. The fail safe is basically just sitting on the floor of the aircraft so the lugs stay in tact, if the locking mechanism fails. So this loose plug basically was able to move up and depart the aircraft.

A good discussion by some folks who seem to be "in the trade".

Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX - PPRuNe Forums

Accidents and Close Calls - Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX - Originally Posted by dragon6172 Interesting that this location is about 2 miles lateral separation from the aircrafts ground track according to flightaware/flightradar24. That seems quite a bit.... Windage?

www.pprune.org

 

[anon]

The signal to noise ratio on pprune can be like a Bear Pit Mil vs MOA thread.

 

[Bender]

Man, if we could only find the genesis of profits over quality. Who would mandate such a thing?


“shareholder supremacy”

 

[rjacobs]

A good discussion by some folks who seem to be "in the trade".

Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX - PPRuNe Forums

Accidents and Close Calls - Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX - Originally Posted by dragon6172 Interesting that this location is about 2 miles lateral separation from the aircrafts ground track according to flightaware/flightradar24. That seems quite a bit.... Windage?

www.pprune.org

GEE if only I was IN THE TRADE and knew what I was talking about...

 

[_Windrider_]

The signal to noise ratio on pprune can be like a Bear Pit Mil vs MOA thread.

Bro I hate that forum. Used to be great. Not so much now.

 

[_Windrider_]

GEE if only I was IN THE TRADE and knew what I was talking about...

If only.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Man, if we could only find the genesis of profits over quality. Who would mandate such a thing?


“shareholder supremacy”



View attachment 8318455

The end user would mandate... But only after you removed the Government from the equation.

 

[7.62willdo]

Pilots are idiots, that’s why they’re designing single pilot cockpits with a German Shepard as co-pilot……

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Pilots are idiots, that’s why they’re designing single pilot cockpits with a German Shepard as co-pilot……

I am located close to a rural airport. After watching some questionable maneuvers, I bring up FlightAware.
That certainly validates my observations. Complaining to the alphabet agencies does no good.
Like the guy with a new plane, just registered, comes out and let's his kids fly in circles around the airport.
I'll save my findings and share them with the family of the people one of these clowns kills.

FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status

Best Flight Tracker: Live Tracking Maps, Flight Status, and Airport Delays for airline flights, private/GA flights, and airports.

www.flightaware.com

 

[rjacobs]

let's his kids fly in circles around the airport.

Its called flying the pattern and probably doing touch and go's... its so insanely common, ESPECIALLY if you just got a new airplane, its hilarious you think they are doing something wrong and would report them to the FAA... The FAA guy probably rolled his eyes and though "this fucking idiot" and hung up on you...

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Jesus Christ shut the fuck up already.

Nobody cares about your humble opinion.

Wait you're a steamfitter? I thought you were a Nobel laureate economist from all the bullshit you spew on THAT other topic.

You can further read on his expertise as a steamfitter here:

Condensation

I'm doing load development at a new range and have new weather conditions. I think I have been struggling with condensation in the bore for a while but didn't recognize it. It took the symptoms getting worse before it became more obvious. Yesterday was 20 degrees and 70%+ humidity. The first...

www.snipershide.com

 

[gigamortis]

I've worked for Boeing here in SC for a few years doing the CNC driller maintenance on the mid body assembly. Just when I thought the dysfunction level of the average government organization was the gold standard, Boeing is just as screwed up. Very top heavy management who's #1 priority is self preservation of their jobs. Quality product be damned. I saw a bunch of sketchy structural workmanship get a QC signoff.

I had no reason to ever fly before. After seeing what I have seen, I certainly don't have a reason to fly. I'll take a ship if I have to cross an ocean.