I’m curious what brand brass you are using that is so inconsistent as to require neck turning? High quality brass isn’t like old factory shit.
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THIS is the way to anneal. Quick, easy, cheap to make, quick, accurate, and repeatable to use.
DIY Induction annealing tool
DIY Induction annealing tool
There is no factory brass in existence that does not benefit from neck turning.
Even the sacred Lapua has inconsistent wall thickness as compared to turned brass.
Whether it makes a difference or not in my ability to get smallest possible groups (best possible accuracy), I turn all my brass, including Lapua that I mostly use. I understand it can be pointless for some applications or just not worth the effort for one reason or another. But, when it comes to brass prep, I simply try to control all that is controllable in my effort for precision towards my goal.
if you are going from 0.3MOA group to possible 0.29MOA, is still worth it? for F-Class? for PRS? for plinking?
Finally got an AMP a couple days ago and I must say, it is the best tool I own.. Truly, life changing in my reloading world! The AMP Mate also was a nice touch as it does the work for me so I can do something else. It was a little painful shelling out the bucks for a tool, but now that I have it, I can definitely appreciate what it is and how it operates. My only regret is not getting one sooner.
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An additional benefit of this tool is that you can also use it for what it was made for; heating stubborn nuts and the like, for easy removal. I also used it once when I had a file broken off from the handle and I couldn't get it out of the wooden handle. I used the inductive heater to heat up the broken file stub red hot, which then ate the inside of the wood handle, and the stub came right out. It made some smoke, but it sure did the job.
Yes Exactly!!! Most the time, I enjoy the show but I definitely appreciate the time saved doing other things. Another tool I upgraded on my bench is the trimmer. I got a Henderson, and its a joy to know that three tasks have been done exceptionally well with a turn of the handle. Getting back to the shooting part of this hobby is alot more streamlined and precise.
code word FCLASSJOHN will take another 5% off past the already marked down $238 price FYI ($226.10 after code - no shipping $$ too) for those looking to get into the game 
www.epintegrations.com
www.epintegrations.com
Reloaders DON'T anneal brass cases ,they restore ductility too the Neck and shoulder to a Degree . FYI : There's NO grain structure alignment or formation regardless of who's equipment one uses ,so it's NOT annealing .
Like the Boxer Berdan Primer fiasco ,just a story gone wrong and misused over the century .
Like the Boxer Berdan Primer fiasco ,just a story gone wrong and misused over the century .
You're using a very, very narrow definition of annealing. There is no single definition that is all encompassing that requires your definition.
Among other things there is stress relief annealing, diffusion annealing, incomplete annealing, complete annealing, and recrystylization annealing.....etc. etc, etc.
At the very basic level annealing is defined as: "heat and allow to cool to remove internal stresses and make it easier to work."
So yes, by the very book definition, we are annealing.
Fairly sure AMP released a video where they said the crystiline structure in the neck realigns, aiding in consistent neck tension. And yes, its annealing.
From one of the , if not the Foremost Authorities on Metallurgy George Vander Voort . Fyi ; I've known George for decades as we ran within the same circles in the course of our careers .
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F. Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes. Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.
In metallurgy and materials science, annealing is a heat treatment that alters the physical and sometimes chemical properties of a material to increase its ductility and reduce its hardness, making it more workable. It involves heating a material above its recrystallization temperature, maintaining a suitable temperature for an appropriate amount of time and then cooling.
In annealing, atoms migrate in the crystal lattice and the number of dislocations decreases, leading to a change in ductility and hardness. As the material cools it recrystallizes. For many alloys, including carbon steel, the crystal grain size and phase composition, which ultimately determine the material properties, are dependent on the heating rate and cooling rate. Hot working or cold working after the annealing process alters the metal structure, so further heat treatments may be used to achieve the properties required.
Annealing occurs by the diffusion of atoms within a solid material, so that the material progresses towards its equilibrium state. Heat increases the rate of diffusion by providing the energy needed to break bonds. The movement of atoms has the effect of redistributing and eradicating the dislocations in metals and (to a lesser extent) in ceramics. This alteration to existing dislocations allows a metal object to deform more easily, increasing its ductility
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F. Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes. Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.
In metallurgy and materials science, annealing is a heat treatment that alters the physical and sometimes chemical properties of a material to increase its ductility and reduce its hardness, making it more workable. It involves heating a material above its recrystallization temperature, maintaining a suitable temperature for an appropriate amount of time and then cooling.
In annealing, atoms migrate in the crystal lattice and the number of dislocations decreases, leading to a change in ductility and hardness. As the material cools it recrystallizes. For many alloys, including carbon steel, the crystal grain size and phase composition, which ultimately determine the material properties, are dependent on the heating rate and cooling rate. Hot working or cold working after the annealing process alters the metal structure, so further heat treatments may be used to achieve the properties required.
Annealing occurs by the diffusion of atoms within a solid material, so that the material progresses towards its equilibrium state. Heat increases the rate of diffusion by providing the energy needed to break bonds. The movement of atoms has the effect of redistributing and eradicating the dislocations in metals and (to a lesser extent) in ceramics. This alteration to existing dislocations allows a metal object to deform more easily, increasing its ductility
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Based upon your responses, is it fair to deduce that you do not anneal your brass nor believe that it makes a difference?
NO I simply induce ductility the same any of you do ,yet annealing requires atoms to move within the metal and form or realign latices aka crystalline restructuring . DOESN'T EVER happen with usable cartridge cases . Sorry to burst everyone's bubble ,we just induce ductility that's it .
I've got #28 reloads on 1942-68 Brass ,run through MY Garands which aren't easy of cases . Near full pressure loads each and every reload .
Still running them ,as I find NO case separation or torn rim issues . I also clean MY cases in an industrial #3 frequency transducer ultrasonic cleaner in 3.5 Minutes in self made solution . Which are equal to if not better than pin tumbling for 2+ Hr. , see 9mm cases , cases on right are ultrasonically cleaned ,rapid dried without polishing . I also duplicate ductility shoulder & Neck of Lapua cases . See photo Only one of those cases is actually a factory Laupa . It's why I'm getting extraordinary longevity on MY reloads .
From UGLY cases left to the weather for #50+ years ,to beautiful full functioning .30 Cal and 7.62x51mm re-loadable cases
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Yet your “inducing ductility” still meets the common definition of annealing. Sure, it doesn’t meet your narrowed definition, but that is still what you are doing, even if you are not realigning and reducing grain size.
Frankly, I don’t care if you call it eating carrots, but just don’t insist that everyone live in your narrow world too.
Frankly, I don’t care if you call it eating carrots, but just don’t insist that everyone live in your narrow world too.
The disconnect is there is a process and then there is a result.
Everyone is using the process of annealing. Very few reach an annealed state (would be pretty hard to actually reach annealed without the case head becoming too soft).
Just arguing semantics at this point. "Neck tension" is actually interference fit the way that people use the term. But we aren't going to argue that till cows come home. No point in arguing this.
Everyone is using the process of annealing. Very few reach an annealed state (would be pretty hard to actually reach annealed without the case head becoming too soft).
Just arguing semantics at this point. "Neck tension" is actually interference fit the way that people use the term. But we aren't going to argue that till cows come home. No point in arguing this.
The process is called annealing. We are annealing brass when we apply heat over time. The end.
When I was salt bath annealing, my pot was set to 550 Celsius. You fucked it up from the get go by not being hot enough. Thanks for coming out.
You're just doing it wrong. I anneal to a recrystallization and grain growth state.NO I simply induce ductility the same any of you do ,yet annealing requires atoms to move within the metal and form or realign latices aka crystalline restructuring . DOESN'T EVER happen with usable cartridge cases . Sorry to burst everyone's bubble ,we just induce ductility that's it .
I've got #28 reloads on 1942-68 Brass ,run through MY Garands which aren't easy of cases . Near full pressure loads each and every reload .
Still running them ,as I find NO case separation or torn rim issues . I also clean MY cases in an industrial #3 frequency transducer ultrasonic cleaner in 3.5 Minutes in self made solution . Which are equal to if not better than pin tumbling for 2+ Hr. , see 9mm cases , cases on right are ultrasonically cleaned ,rapid dried without polishing . I also duplicate ductility shoulder & Neck of Lapua cases . See photo Only one of those cases is actually a factory Laupa . It's why I'm getting extraordinary longevity on MY reloads .
From UGLY cases left to the weather for #50+ years ,to beautiful full functioning .30 Cal and 7.62x51mm re-loadable cases
So the definition of Ductile is. Able to be DEFORMED with out losing toughness,not brittle. I think that is what we all are trying to achive.NO I simply induce ductility the same any of you do ,yet annealing requires atoms to move within the metal and form or realign latices aka crystalline restructuring . DOESN'T EVER happen with usable cartridge cases . Sorry to burst everyone's bubble ,we just induce ductility that's it .
I've got #28 reloads on 1942-68 Brass ,run through MY Garands which aren't easy of cases . Near full pressure loads each and every reload .
Still running them ,as I find NO case separation or torn rim issues . I also clean MY cases in an industrial #3 frequency transducer ultrasonic cleaner in 3.5 Minutes in self made solution . Which are equal to if not better than pin tumbling for 2+ Hr. , see 9mm cases , cases on right are ultrasonically cleaned ,rapid dried without polishing . I also duplicate ductility shoulder & Neck of Lapua cases . See photo Only one of those cases is actually a factory Laupa . It's why I'm getting extraordinary longevity on MY reloads .
From UGLY cases left to the weather for #50+ years ,to beautiful full functioning .30 Cal and 7.62x51mm re-loadable cases
After reading through that paper linked by Tokay444. Or at least the first 16 pages. It looks like for recrystalize to take place you would need to heat to 650c/1200f for 15 seconds or 300c/575f for around 5 Minutes. Or for example is the brass is cw21 it would require 450c/842f for 4 hours whereas if that same piece of brass was cw42 it would only require 450c/842f for 15 seconds. That seams like a lot longer than I’ve ever seen someone anneal their cases. I always read where people will use 750* tempilaq and try to remove the second the temp reaches 750*. According to that paper you would need to maintain 750* for several minutes for actual recrystalization to occur. Or 15 seconds depending on the CW of the brass. Which we really don’t know . Definitely interesting.
NO : Please read and it makes zero difference to myself what one calls their process . MY World revolves around the Sun inside a galaxy ,others are simply inside the vacuum along for the ride
Annealing occurs by the diffusion of atoms within a solid material, so that the material progresses towards its equilibrium state. Heat increases the rate of diffusion by providing the energy needed to break bonds. The movement of atoms has the effect of redistributing and eradicating the dislocations in metals and (to a lesser extent) in ceramics. This alteration to existing dislocations allows a metal object to deform more easily, increasing its ductility and if continued long enough realigns uniforms crystalline structure .aka latices .
" I didn't make the science ,it's principles have long been accepted " . As sure as Relativity or Newtons laws , I simply restated one .
I'm NOT the cyber police if everyone continues to refer to the process as annealing so be it ,I simply don't
Exactly MY point ; We as reloaders have been using the improper term annealing for decades . We do TRY or use the same principles used in annealing processes but NEVER achieve it . So I simply refer to it in it's proper term within the metallurgical field " Inducing Ductility " Now what was stated earlier by You is also correct regrading references as in :
"Among other things there is stress relief annealing, diffusion annealing, incomplete annealing, complete annealing, and recrystylization annealing.....etc. etc, etc."
Technically changing grain structure or latices realignments is in fact TRUE ANNEALING . As I'm sure You are fully aware of Brass doesn't care , how it's cooled ,air cool or bucket of ice , After initial heating is accomplished .
True Brass annealing : Figure 8a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50% and annealed at 704°C (1300°F) – 30 min. producing a fully recrystallized, and grown, equiaxed FCC grain structure with annealing twins.
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I'll assume you can read ,perhaps YOU would care to read this out loud for the forum ? YOU posted it . I've highlighted the areas of particular interest . NONE of us are achieving re crystallization regardless of how you or anyone else refers to it .
COLD deformation and recrystallization of brass are
of great industrial importance because of their roles in the
fabrication of the metal and because of the dependence of
physical properties on the cold working and on the anneal-
ing processes that produce crystallization.[1] Changes in
the physical properties of metals brought on by cold work-
ing such as increases in hardness, yield strength, ultimate
strength, coefficient of thermal expansion, and concomi-
tant decreases in ductility, impact strength, formability, and
electrical conductivity are reversed by the fundamentally
opposing process of annealing.
These are most certainly repeatable and verified tests , I've also got the Doctorate work from Two India PhD.'s , who also concluded after exhausting experiments ,that what George Vander Voort had published earlier is in deed Factual and repeatable .
Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F. Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes. Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.
Done with this discussion let the chips fall where they fly ,the data is in simply READ it .
so it is all about semantics/ word definitions. What a waste of forum time.NO : Please read and it makes zero difference to myself what one calls their process . MY World revolves around the Sun inside a galaxy ,others are simply inside the vacuum along for the ride
Annealing occurs by the diffusion of atoms within a solid material, so that the material progresses towards its equilibrium state. Heat increases the rate of diffusion by providing the energy needed to break bonds. The movement of atoms has the effect of redistributing and eradicating the dislocations in metals and (to a lesser extent) in ceramics. This alteration to existing dislocations allows a metal object to deform more easily, increasing its ductility and if continued long enough realigns uniforms crystalline structure .aka latices .
" I didn't make the science ,it's principles have long been accepted " . As sure as Relativity or Newtons laws , I simply restated one .
I'm NOT the cyber police if everyone continues to refer to the process as annealing so be it ,I simply don't
Exactly MY point ; We as reloaders have been using the improper term annealing for decades . We do TRY or use the same principles used in annealing processes but NEVER achieve it . So I simply refer to it in it's proper term within the metallurgical field " Inducing Ductility " Now what was stated earlier by You is also correct regrading references as in :
"Among other things there is stress relief annealing, diffusion annealing, incomplete annealing, complete annealing, and recrystylization annealing.....etc. etc, etc."
Technically changing grain structure or latices realignments is in fact TRUE ANNEALING . As I'm sure You are fully aware of Brass doesn't care , how it's cooled ,air cool or bucket of ice , After initial heating is accomplished .
True Brass annealing : Figure 8a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50% and annealed at 704°C (1300°F) – 30 min. producing a fully recrystallized, and grown, equiaxed FCC grain structure with annealing twins.
Damn man , you fed the trolls for a week with that one . Bravo ! Little panties all wadded up right at their anal dots .
Exactly my point. Someone trying to show off how much he knows and telling us we are all wrong and then saying it doesn’t matter. I’ve seen it before and am totally and duly impressed…beyond words. I have literally no idea how I could have gone on living without that total waste of forum time.
The argument here is really about "process" vs end result. In the shooting community, annealing is simply reference to the "process" of achieving a certain ductility and not the end result to a "fully annealed" piece of brass. Arguing otherwise is silly and pointless.
Attached is a pdf file from MetLab LTD that covers the issue well:
Attached is a pdf file from MetLab LTD that covers the issue well:
Sometimes you have to go beyond READING it, and actually THINK about it. Seems like you missed that part?
It's surprising how many people see "PhD" or other indications of "smart people" and just accept what was said instead of thinking about it. I noted some relevant details in bold for you above; if you don't understand why those temperatures invalidate that experiment then you need to back up and think about it further.
That bit you quoted reminds me of all the hit pieces against salt bath annealing written by "smart people" a few years back; almost all of which were based on "tests" in the 750-800F range, which is pretty stupid unless you're intentionally setting the test up to fail in the first place. Meanwhile those of us who had a clue what we were trying to achieve were setting the salt bath at much higher temperatures than that and getting good results.
Not high enough to melt the brass, because that happens before recrystallisation all of a sudden.
Most of us were using 1,000-1,200F. I think some tried up to 1,500F (you’d use different salts depending on the temp range). Naturally the higher the temp in the salt bath, the less time brass needed to be in it.
It did work; I just quit doing it because of cleanup time with the salt pot. I’d tried just leaving it in the pot and sealing it all in a big freezer bag after cooling, but ended up rusting out the pot and heating element. No bueno.
Merry Christmas gentlemen! Let’s remember today that we all have a lot in common here, even if we disagree on some of the details.
This annealer just flat works. I have been using his original unit for 3 years.
Thought some of you intellectuals might find this interesting ,completely vindicating MY position on ductility restoration .
Try pages #14 and #15 .
A number of structural changes can be observed in the photomicrographs of cold-rolled cartridge brass in Fig. 1. The process of permanent deformation affects -
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/items/5215/bitstreams/20438/data.pdf
And if one doesn't believe the above try below
https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html?id=534e7a62d5a3f2a4098
Try pages #14 and #15 .
A number of structural changes can be observed in the photomicrographs of cold-rolled cartridge brass in Fig. 1. The process of permanent deformation affects -
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/items/5215/bitstreams/20438/data.pdf
And if one doesn't believe the above try below
https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html?id=534e7a62d5a3f2a4098
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