Button rifle quality: also Green Mountain Barrels

[longshot2000]

I am looking into Green Mountain Barrels. They are a buttoned rifle company, and from what I can tell do alot of OEM work. Their production methods look similar to Shillen, Criterion, Lilja, Bergarra and Pac-Nor. Typcially buttoned barrels are not quite as good as cut rifling, like Kreiger, Bartlein, Obermeyer, etc., but better than cold hammer forging (BCM, DD,).

So, question here is: If you have familiarity with buttoned rifle barrels, what do you know about Green Mountain and their quaility compared to their peers and others?

 

[Steel head]

I’ve seen plenty of button rifled barrel flat out shoot
I think if well machined you could get a green mountain blankl shoot damn well.
Barrels are kinda a lottery.
The more you spend the better the odds of a shooter.

 

[FatBoy]

Longshot,

All my ARs except one wears Green Mountain stainless barrels. We buy the 25" gunsmith specials and my builder profiles them for the project. They shoot every bit as good as a Douglas barrels in the ARs, which is to say 3/4 moa with 77s. That's about as good as I can drive a gas gun with 10x or less optics.

I have(had) two 6.5mm 27" blanks as well. I let them sit too long and Tim used one to build a guys hunting 260. No complaints on the 8.5 twist stainless. I have a 8 twist chromoly to do a 6.5x47 barrel for a shorter hunting rig but I haven't had time to build it.

For they money they seem like very good barrels. I would say every bit as good as a Wilson, etc. which may be Green Mountain. I have never used their profiled products.

 

[308pirate]

Typcially buttoned barrels are not quite as good as cut rifling, like Kreiger, Bartlein, Obermeyer, etc., but better than cold hammer forging (BCM, DD,).

Who told you that?

 

[longshot2000]

Who told you that?

Well thoughts on barrels are like belly buttons. Everyone has one, but we are not sure why. I think that is close enough to a fact that is seldom disputed, all other things being equal. I have spent enough time researching barrel production and talking to both the producers and shooters to feel pretty solid in saying that cut rifling produces a better product, all other variables being held constant. Would you argue with that?

Well, even if you will, that is not the point of the thread. I am trying to get a comparison of button blank makers, and especially to compare and contrast GMB to other, more well-know button blanks.

Longshot,

All my ARs except one wears Green Mountain stainless barrels. We buy the 25" gunsmith specials and my builder profiles them for the project. They shoot every bit as good as a Douglas barrels in the ARs, which is to say 3/4 moa with 77s. That's about as good as I can drive a gas gun with 10x or less optics.

For they money they seem like very good barrels. I would say every bit as good as a Wilson, etc. which may be Green Mountain. I have never used their profiled products.

Thanks, that is very helpful. They offer several varieties of honing and 416 and 4150. Seems like a good process. Just surprised I have not heard much about them. Surprised they did not lap, but they felt that was the finishers job. I have heard a few conflicting opinions on that.

 

[demolitionman]

http://criterionbarrels.com/media/honeycutt-sets-national-f-class-record-with-criterion-barrel

 

[snarkscarbine]

Button rifling hinges upon the stress relief step. If you get that right, there's no discernable difference between that and cut rifling, except that cut rifling machinery is a lot more expensive as I understand it.

 

[308pirate]

Button rifling hinges upon the stress relief step. If you get that right, there's no discernable difference between that and cut rifling,.

I would say the same about cold hammer forging, which induces a shitload of stress on the barrel blank as it's hammered radially to conform to the mandrel inside of it and to the hammers outside of it.

In fact, IMPO, hammer forging is quick and cheap for making tons of OEM barrels but terrible from a stress point of view. Yeah you can run the part through a stress relief process, but that doesn't change the fact that CHF induces the most stress into the part.

 

[MarinePMI]

And yet CZ rifles shoot like a house on fire...

Each process for making barrels has it's problems, as well as solutions. The quality/accuracy of a barrel (regardless of process) is how WELL the manufacturer understands the problems, and deals with them.

GM barrels have always shot well for me; sometimes scary well...

 

[308pirate]

And yet CZ rifles shoot like a house on fire...

Each process for making barrels has it's problems, as well as solutions. The quality/accuracy of a barrel (regardless of process) is how WELL the manufacturer understands the problems, and deals with them....

You're absolutely right.

The same statements apply to numerous technical discussions that happen on gun boards where most participants don't have much beyond a shallow understanding of the matter. Examples include:
- Nitriding (in all of its forms)
- MIM
- Steel and aluminum metallurgy (4140 vs 4150 is one of the most retarded internet arguments ever)
- Properties between wrought and forged alloys (the billet vs forged AR arguments are the second most retarded ever)
- and quite a few others

 

[orkan]

All shot at 100yds with buttoned rifled Benchmark barrels. I have hundreds more groups like this... shot with dozens of different rifles... All Benchmark barrels and all button rifled. If button rifled barrels won't shoot... it's news to me. Most are 5 shot groups, some are 3 shot.

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[orkan]

 

[MTFalconer]

I think a good amount of folks would be shocked to know the barrels that green mountain actually supplies to rifle makers. They are a VERY prolific company. Lots of factory rifles are using green mountain with the companies name attached. I've only used two over twenty plus years and I was pleasantly surprised with both. They were both good barrels, bench rest barrels? NO, they weren't, but both held MOA or better. Which cannot be said for most factory barrels. They make a decent barrel at a good price point. As was said before, cut rifling and button rifling are pretty similar as far as the method used to achieve the rifling in the barrel. The difference is what happens after the rifling is cut. Stress relieving, fit and finish are what you pay the extra money for.

 

[308pirate]

As was said before, cut rifling and button rifling are pretty similar as far as the method used to achieve the rifling in the barrel.

Not even close. One is a true cutting tool shaping one groove at a time with multiple passes and a relatively shallow depth of cut. The other is a carbide swage that will displace material to form all grooves simultaneously as it's pulled and rotated through in one pass

The reason stress relief needs are different is because the methods are very different from each other.

 

[Ledzep]

Most of it has been hashed. Button rifling is displacement of material from a mandrel, cut rifling is taking a ton of tiny shaving cuts. Button rifling, because it plastically deforms the material induces localized strain hardening and pent up residual stress. Cut-rifling does not induce any meaningful residual stress into the material by cutting the material away.

Buttons can slip and give inconsistent rates of twist down the length of the barrel. Cut rifling is typically more consistent there. Button rifling is faster and cheaper, cut rifling is slower and likewise costs more. All of that said, I completely agree that it's entirely dependent on who does it and how. Benchmark makes button barrels that HAMMER and are not affected by heat, nor do they open up when you cut the barrel wall relatively thin (muzzle threads). Whatever they're doing for stress relief is working really well.

More directly to the OP's question, I have had one Green Mountain barrel; a .308 cal "gunsmith special" straight 1.25" blank. I don't know if it was processed any different from their normal production stuff, or if they have varying levels of quality in what they sell. This example I think was like $35 or something.... Anyway, I profiled it to match a Rem-Varmint contour, and cut it at 16" for a handy little .308 test bed to see how the GM barrels shot. It was about a 2MOA shooter, which I think can be largely attributed to the fact that the muzzle measured 0.312" in the groove and .304" in the lands. 1/2" back from the muzzle was the typical .300/.308". The barrel had bell-mouthed something horrible from residual hoop stress when the threads were cut. Unfortunately I cut it short enough that lopping off the threads would have technically made it a SBR so I just scrapped the project.

Factory button rifles will typically shoot .75-1.5 MOA no problem, sometimes better with handloads. The problems you can run into with them is that the internal stress starts to behave weirdly when you heat the barrel up. 3-5 shots typically really tight, then it opens up, walks, diagonally strings, etc... Wipe the barrel down with a cold wet rag to cool it off, and you're back in the sub-MOA range. Not all do this, though-- seems to be less common than it used to be.

 

[demolitionman]

I really appreciated your post. Thanks Ledzep.

 

[longshot2000]

All shot at 100yds with buttoned rifled Benchmark barrels. I have hundreds more groups like this... shot with dozens of different rifles... All Benchmark barrels and all button rifled. If button rifled barrels won't shoot... it's news to me...

I don't think you are characterizing statement incorrectly (if it was my statement). There are clearly some excellent precision buttoned rifle blank makers. Lilja is probably at the top of my list. It you lined up the top 5 cut rifle blank makers against the top 5 button rifle blank makers, you would no-doubt have find overlap, but, as a group, the cut rifling would be better all around.

Or, let's say I am wrong.

The topic I was raising was about buttoned rifle makers and GMB in particualr.

 

[orkan]

I'm confused. ... or more accurately, dumbfounded that when questions like this arise, all anyone wants to do is talk. Academic discussions about something that is SO EASILY proven.

Stop talking. Post your damn groups or individual shots. How hard is that?

Every serious rifleman knows data logging is not a negotiable part of being a true student of the discipline. Recording rifle/load/shooter performance is part of that discipline. Stop talking, and show. Words have absolutely NO value in this discussion. ... yet all people want to do is talk.

I know why. ... because people plant their flag on a company or an idea, and they think it reflects poorly on them if they move their flag. Well I plant my flag on performance. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there are no less than a dozen barrel manufacturers in this country that can produce sub-1/4moa rifle blanks. Some do it more consistently than others... but anyone trying to convince me that one is so vastly superior to the other is going to have a tough time of it. Bartlein, krieger, brux, benchmark, mcgowen, hawk hill, white oak, on and on and on. I've seen tiny little knots printed from damn near every one of those companies more than just a few times.

No one ever wants to talk about the truth.

The truth is NONE of them can guarantee every barrel will be capable of winning a national benchrest competition. If you ask any of them why one barrel is so good and another is just so-so... they can't tell you why either. They can list possibilities, but they don't KNOW. If you order 20 barrels from all the major companies, chances are that one of those 20, or maybe even 2 or 3 of them will be real lasers. Some companies will produce fewer duds than the next, and that will change from month to month, production to production. You might have to buy 500 barrels before you'd find one that was truly capable of shooting in the zero's all the time. ... and then, could you shoot it that well all the time? No, probably not.

If everyone shut the hell up about what they "thought" and just posted the performance they have actually seen, we'd see the truth. The truth that damn near EVERY ONE of the custom barrel makers are turning out crazy good barrels. Cut rifled, button rifled, forged, doesn't make one damn bit of difference. If I cherry picked my groups from the Benchmark barrels I've been shooting and posted them... NO ONE is going to show up with groups that would be significantly smaller... because they are all in the .1's or .0's. At least a few dozen of them in the last couple years. Yet that's not the delta... 1/4-1/3moa is the delta. That's the kind of performance I've come to expect. Yet I know for a fact there are guys that can say the same thing about their chosen manufacturer's barrels. So why is this being talked about as if it is some intangible academic thing that can't be proven? Anyone that works in this industry that is tasked with load development can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there are a metric fuckton of custom manufacturers capable of producing great barrels. Capable, and proven to do so.

These discussions where people are talking with such certainty and finality about something so complex is just about the most infuriating thing for anyone with real experience to read. Case in point:

Look at this rifling. This is from a Benchmark 6.5mm barrel. Saw this the first time I cleaned the rifle.

Most shooters would lose their shit upon seeing this in one of their barrels. OMG THE HORROR!!!!!! Yet I'm not an academic shooter... I'm an ACTUAL shooter, so when I want to know how a barrel will shoot, I FUCKING SHOOT IT! I started with some 140VLD's. Wouldn't shoot them for shit. Tried like 8 different types of powder and every seating depth imaginable. Wouldn't shoot them. Switched to 140 hybrids and this barrel is one of the most accurate and stable barrels I've ever owned. Here's a video of me putting down a 5" group or so at 985yds. First shots of the day.

https://streamable.com/xzjnq

Not bad for something with such butchered rifling. I never even called benchmark. Why would I? Who gives a shit what it looks like or how it was made. They could have rifled it with a bent paper clip for all I care. Who gives a shit when it shoots like that? First shots of the day and windy as hell too. Yet I know for a fact there are shooters on this forum that would have called benchmark and read them the riot act without ever firing a damn shot through the thing. You trying to tell me that the difference in button vs cut rifling is going to make one damn bit of difference when a barrel with rifling like THAT shoots so well?

I have the same discussions with guys looking to buy rifle scopes. They want to talk for hours on end about what material the scope tube is made from or whether or not this coating or that coating was used. All because they are under the misguided impression that this knowledge will somehow mitigate the risk of spending money on the thing. ... which is hilarious because most of them don't have a singular fucking clue about what the right answers should be anyway. They read some garbage some other academic typer-sniper posted on a forum one time and then accepted it as fact.

Things either work or they don't. If something doesn't work, the company will either stand behind it or they won't. How they're made doesn't make one shits bit of difference.

So, why all the bullshit? Why all the talk? When someone asks about barrel performance, why doesn't everyone just show him as I've done?

I'd say that I'd get off my soap box now, but I'd be lying. I like it up here.

 

[WickedDaddy]

The first target is 5 shots through a Green Mountain .22 barrel (20") at 50 yards. I have another .22 with a GMB and it performs the same. Needless to say, I'm very happy with them and they are my first GMBs.

The second target is my Ruger .308 RPR with 20" cold hammer forged barrel. That target was shot with 10 rounds of Federal GMM and 10 rounds of Hornady ELD Match at 200 yards. You can see that the FGMM performed much better than the Hornady - surprisingly better. Like a dummy, I forgot to turn on the caliper but it's obvious the 10 shot FGMM group is slightly less than 1". Is the CHF barrel particular to FGMM because it's CHF? Who knows. But I'm pretty impressed with it regardless of how it was made.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Id go with a cut rifled barrel if its my money, but either way is g2g if the rifler puts their best effort in it. Kinda funny honestly, single point cut is the dominant choice for centerfire, but look at rimfire benchrest and button barrels rule the roost.

 

[SharpsNitro]

Button rifling is nothing to be afraid of. I’ve largely run Benchmark barrels for the last 7-8 years and have no complaints as they flat out shoot. I can’t say the cut rifled barrels I’ve had, mainly Kreiger, have any advantage.

 

[padom]

In all the testing I have done and all the barrels Ive shot its not about button vs cut and which is better. Its 100% about who makes the barrel and the smith chambering it. I have and have seen many button barrels shoot lights out right with my Bartlein cut rifled barrels.

Orkans experience regarding the button barrel he posted rifling pics above is very similar to my experience with button barrels when finding a load. I have found that button barrels require more time and effort to find a load that shoots lights out testing multiple different powders/bullet combinations. But once you find what it likes it shoots tiny little holes. Just tested a button barrel 2 weeks ago that had this very situation but once I found a combination it liked it hammered. I have found that cut rifled barrels are less picky with a powder/bullet combination that shoots little groups.

 

[orkan]

In all the testing I have done and all the barrels Ive shot its not about button vs cut and which is better. Its 100% about who makes the barrel and the smith chambering it. I have and have seen many button barrels shoot lights out right with my Bartlein cut rifled barrels.

Orkans experience regarding the button barrel he posted rifling pics above is very similar to my experience with button barrels when finding a load. I have found that button barrels require more time and effort to find a load that shoots lights out testing multiple different powders/bullet combinations. But once you find what it likes it shoots tiny little holes. Just tested a button barrel 2 weeks ago that had this very situation but once I found a combination it liked it hammered. I have found that cut rifled barrels are less picky with a powder/bullet combination that shoots little groups.

Uhhh... no. That has not been my experience at all. That was my experience with THAT ONE BARREL with the tore up rifling. Otherwise, the hundred plus button rifled barrels I've done load dev on have been just as stupid easy as I could ever hope for. Benchmark barrels installed by TS Customs have given me the easiest load dev and the most accurate/precise barrels I've ever encountered. Some barrels are just finicky. This is just as true with cut rifled as any other. Almost all of the groups I posted above were done BEFORE serious load dev. They were achieved by starting a bullet .010 off the lands and guessing at a powder charge, finding pressure, backing off it... and shooting. So I don't agree with your assessment that button cut are picky. Not in the slightest.

I do however agree that it's all about who makes the barrel and who installs it. I'm quite positive there are crappy button rifled barrel makers out there. Just as I'm certain there are crappy cut rifled barrel makers. Yet I know for an absolute fact that Benchmark is not crappy. They are quite good. This has been proven over the last 5-6 years with the several hundred barrels of theirs we've sold, all of which were chambered/installed by TS Customs. Yet they are certainly not the only button rifled company that does a good job. Pretty sure no one is going to spit toward Lilja. They have produced great barrels over the years as well.

 

[NY700]

I think it comes down to this. How good was the style blank. Often outside the ultimate control of the barrel maker. And was your barrel the first on after the replacement of the cutting mechanism or last off before someone decided it was falling out of spec and time to replace


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[padom]

Uhhh... no. That has not been my experience at all. That was my experience with THAT ONE BARREL with the tore up rifling. Otherwise, the hundred plus button rifled barrels I've done load dev on have been just as stupid easy as I could ever hope for. Benchmark barrels installed by TS Customs have given me the easiest load dev and the most accurate/precise barrels I've ever encountered. Some barrels are just finicky. This is just as true with cut rifled as any other. Almost all of the groups I posted above were done BEFORE serious load dev. They were achieved by starting a bullet .010 off the lands and guessing at a powder charge, finding pressure, backing off it... and shooting. So I don't agree with your assessment that button cut are picky. Not in the slightest.

I do however agree that it's all about who makes the barrel and who installs it. I'm quite positive there are crappy button rifled barrel makers out there. Just as I'm certain there are crappy cut rifled barrel makers. Yet I know for an absolute fact that Benchmark is not crappy. They are quite good. This has been proven over the last 5-6 years with the several hundred barrels of theirs we've sold, all of which were chambered/installed by TS Customs. Yet they are certainly not the only button rifled company that does a good job. Pretty sure no one is going to spit toward Lilja. They have produced great barrels over the years as well.

I never said all your barrels required extensive load development. All I said was my experience has been in line with what you posted above.. I have not tested Benchmark barrels, but I have tested others and that was my experience. Now, using the term Button rifled does not put all button rifle blank makers in the same category. I assumed after looking at your groups and reading your experience that Benchmark is putting out doubled lapped button barrels and after reviewing their website that is exactly what they are producing. That is not the case with every button rifled barrel maker... I know when Dan Muller of Mullerworks was producing button blanks he also was producing double lapped button barrels that shot lights out. Rock Creek produces some lights out double lapped button barrels as well.

Getting a button barrel that is not lapped vs a single lapped and double lapped blank makes a big difference. All button rifled blanks are not of the same quality. Also, I have been informed that some of these button blank makers sell different grade barrels. Say their OEM barrels that are used on a lot of big name rifles are either not lapped or single lapped to keep costs down vs a double lapped blank you can purchase directly from them.

 

[flyright]

My next barrel will be a Benchmark. I've seen so many of them that consistently produce tiny groups with a wide variety of loads that I believe my odds are pretty good going with one. I've also seen plenty of high end barrels that were quite finicky. Just because it's a high end barrel doesn't guarantee it'll be a laser but you at least get the odds in your favor. I've got several buddies that shoot the GM's and I would say they're pretty good to very good. More odds to figure - buy and try.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Most shooters would lose their shit upon seeing this in one of their barrels. OMG THE HORROR!!!!!! Yet I'm not an academic shooter... I'm an ACTUAL shooter, so when I want to know how a barrel will shoot, I FUCKING SHOOT IT!

This! Exactly.

We talk and it doesn't achieve a thing, change a thing. When we shoot, we actually derive information, and resolve questions.

Greg

 

[CriterionBarrels]

Most of it has been hashed. Button rifling is displacement of material from a mandrel, cut rifling is taking a ton of tiny shaving cuts. Button rifling, because it plastically deforms the material induces localized strain hardening and pent up residual stress. Cut-rifling does not induce any meaningful residual stress into the material by cutting the material away.

Buttons can slip and give inconsistent rates of twist down the length of the barrel. Cut rifling is typically more consistent there. Button rifling is faster and cheaper, cut rifling is slower and likewise costs more. All of that said, I completely agree that it's entirely dependent on who does it and how. Benchmark makes button barrels that HAMMER and are not affected by heat, nor do they open up when you cut the barrel wall relatively thin (muzzle threads). Whatever they're doing for stress relief is working really well.

-QUOTE]

This post hits the nail on the head although I would like to make one correction pertaining to consistency in button rifled barrel twist rates. This may have been a universal truth in the past (and might still hold true from some button rifled manufacturers today) but recent improvements in CNC production techniques have virtually eliminated inconsistency in twist rates during buttoning. These improvements allow us to both monitor and eliminate twist rate variation at any point in the rifling. You are quite correct that proper stress relief is essential with button rifled barrels, and that many improvements have been made to ensure consistent performance when the barrel is heated or cooled.

 

[MtnCreek]

My exp with green mtn barrels is one 16" ss on an ar. It shot well during load work up, then swapped the scope for a rds. Fwiw, the best shooting barrel I have is a shilen. I believe they are button rifled.

 

[MDM]

I've used several of the 1.062 straight 22cal GM blanks to build 223's and a couple of 22-250s. Perfect for a barrel nut set up. $105 and All shoot lights out. Sucks contouring them down though. Even used a couple of their 1" straight 22lr, with the same results. If the work is done right and chambers are cut straight they will shoot very well.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

padom - where did you hear Mullerworks don't do button rifling no more? There appears to be some MW button rifled tubes on bugholes right now for sale. His rim fire barrels are some of the most sought after and arguably best barrels you can get for rimfire BR. Benchmark 2- & 3-groove and Shilen ratchets are much more available though and consequently are what you usually see on the leaderboards in RFBR. FWIW Douglas don't do any lapping, but their 6mm & .30 cal barrels are regularly seen winning in 1000yd BR. IIRC tho Douglas utilizes their special "double button" or whatever their term is for it, on the premium 6mm and .30 cal's.

IMO it's kinda a crap shoot whether you end up with a hummer, average, or tomato stake barrel. Provided you go with a top notch barrel maker that puts their best effort in it, it's largely at the mercy of the steel quality if the barrel ends up good-average (most likely) or unusually excellent-hummer/tomato stake-shitty(much less likely). As far as orkan's barrel above, don't surprise me at all that it shoots well. If the mistake is consistent, it ain't much of a "mistake" at all and shouldn't affect accuracy negatively one bit. Benchmark definitely seems to be one of the makers who will put that extra effort into lapping their barrels to have a good taper-bore. Hence why rimfire BR gunsmiths use em alot.

Also, I believe Green Mountain is one of the ones who use a Sunnen hone in their manufacturing process..? Correct me if wrong. That certainly should go a good ways toward ensuring bore uniformity/roundness, else I doubt companies like Bartlein would spend the $100,000+ to get em/keep em running. I could be wrong about GM using one tho.. I know Bartlein has one, and IIRC also Benchmark, Feddersen, Pac-nor, and several others...
Tony Boyer once said a big secret to BR is buying lots of barrels to find the one or couple that are championship-level shooters. Orkan alluded to this above. With GM's barrel prices, you should be able to buy a few tubes for the price of 1 premium barrel. Then shoot em all and keep the best, sell the rest. The odds are good that you'll come out ahead and likely end up with a barrel that'll shoot right there with some of the best makers' barrels.

 

[padom]

padom - where did you hear Mullerworks don't do button rifling no more? There appears to be some MW button rifled tubes on bugholes right now for sale. His rim fire barrels are some of the most sought after and arguably best barrels you can get for rimfire BR. Benchmark 2- & 3-groove and Shilen ratchets are much more available though and consequently are what you usually see on the leaderboards in RFBR. FWIW Douglas don't do any lapping, but their 6mm & .30 cal barrels are regularly seen winning in 1000yd BR. IIRC tho Douglas utilizes their special "double button" or whatever their term is for it, on the premium 6mm and .30 cal's.

IMO it's kinda a crap shoot whether you end up with a hummer, average, or tomato stake barrel. Provided you go with a top notch barrel maker that puts their best effort in it, it's largely at the mercy of the steel quality if the barrel ends up good-average (most likely) or unusually excellent-hummer/tomato stake-shitty(much less likely). As far as orkan's barrel above, don't surprise me at all that it shoots well. If the mistake is consistent, it ain't much of a "mistake" at all and shouldn't affect accuracy negatively one bit. Benchmark definitely seems to be one of the makers who will put that extra effort into lapping their barrels to have a good taper-bore. Hence why rimfire BR gunsmiths use em alot.

Also, I believe Green Mountain is one of the ones who use a Sunnen hone in their manufacturing process..? Correct me if wrong. That certainly should go a good ways toward ensuring bore uniformity/roundness, else I doubt companies like Bartlein would spend the $100,000+ to get em/keep em running. I could be wrong about GM using one tho.. I know Bartlein has one, and IIRC also Benchmark, Feddersen, Pac-nor, and several others...

I never said Mullerworks wasnt producing button barrels anymore. But...Greg at Southern Precision (Bugholes) told me just recently he mostly produces all cut rifled barrels now. He said Dan still does some buttons here and there but not much. I just received a cut rifled Mullerworks 6.5 blank 2 weeks ago. Im currently testing a Mullerworks cut rifled .223 barrel right now that Greg (Bugholes/SPR) sent me for a review. Its a laser.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

padom : Please do keep us posted on how your experience goes with those Mullerworks tubes! I think his barrels will simply only get more and more popular! He is a VERY talented and downright gifted individual, and everything I've seen/heard of his barrels is nothing short of very highly promising and quality to the extreme.

Once I get around to doing a 6.5 or 6mm Tikka, Mullerworks is most likely who I'm going with depending availability. If not then Krieger, Brux, Bartlein, or Benchmark. Maybe Douglas if it ends up being 6mm, seriously they've been knocking it out the park lately with their 6mm's and .30 cals. I'll post up some 1000yd BR equipment lists when I get home, Douglas has been making a awesome showing.

James Lederer is another Rock Creek alumni who has branched out on his own to make single point cut rifled tubes himself, and is just as talented (built his own CNC cut rifling machine, etc.. His barrels have been showing they're at the very tip top tier in short range group- and especially for-score benchrest, hanging right in there/winning amongst the best shooters' Kriegers, Bartleins, Harts, Shilens, Brux's, Broughtons, etc. His main customers are the short-range BR crowd tho so consequently most of what he makes are slow twist 6mm's and .30 cal's. But he has the ability to make other stuff obviously.

​​One thing seen often in the AR world but strangely not with bolt guns, is melonited chrome moly barrels. With the CM's almost always being cheaper than the SS tubes with the various barrel makers & having the same accuracy potential/no difference, it seems like a no-brainer for CM barrels that are melonited to be more popular among bolt rifle builds but they ain't for some reason. I've wondered why this is the case, given that you'll end up with a much longer lasting barrel going this route(provided that use a company who does it properly obviously). Only thing I can think is folks just don't want to spend the money for nitriding..?? It's something I'd like to try personally, and nitride-treated barrels just look fckn awesome IMO!!

 

[308pirate]

Only thing I can think is folks just don't want to spend the money for nitriding..??

Some of us, who actually understand metallurgy and heat treatment, are not too keen on aftermarket heat treatment.

Let me ask you this, have you ever found anyone selling nitride barrels be able to answer these questions?:
- What is the surface hardness of the barrel?
- What is the effective nitriding case depth?
- How was the white layer formation dealt with?
- How was dimensional growth dealt with or accounted for?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Some of us, who actually understand metallurgy and heat treatment, are not too keen on aftermarket heat treatment.

Let me ask you this, have you ever found anyone selling nitride barrels be able to answer these questions?:
- What is the surface hardness of the barrel?
- What is the effective nitriding case depth?
- How was the white layer formation dealt with?
- How was dimensional growth dealt with or accounted for?

I've never dealt with any company who does it and being ignorant in comparison to you on the topic of metallurgy, I don't know the potential negatives of the treatment. My more overarching point was that I think chrome moly barrels are underbought in the precision arena, IF they could be treated/finished to have equal corrosion resistance to stainless while still coming in at or below price point of SS(it's my understanding that bluing drives the price up well above a SS barrel??). Just my humble opinion anyhow.. thanks for chiming in sir. Your point of dealing with dimensional growth especially is one I ain't even considered and definitely area for concern..

Btw, in what way does cryo'ing affect hardness (if at all)? Gunsmiths love the way cryo'd barrels handle machining, I'm assuming it does affect hardness one way or other?

 

[308pirate]

I've never dealt with any company who does it and being ignorant in comparison to you on the topic of metallurgy, I don't know the potential negatives of the treatment. My more overarching point was that I think chrome moly barrels are underbought in the precision arena, IF they could be treated/finished to have equal corrosion resistance to stainless while still coming in at or below price point of SS(it's my understanding that bluing drives the price up well above a SS barrel??). Just my humble opinion anyhow.. thanks for chiming in sir. Your point of dealing with dimensional growth especially is one I ain't even considered and definitely area for concern..

I get your point but every heat treater I've dealt with has minimum lot charges. If you're going to nitride just one barrel, whatever savings there were over a SS barrel are gone and then some.

Barrels are consumables, not life-of-the-rifle parts.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I get your point but every heat treater I've dealt with has minimum lot charges. If you're going to nitride just one barrel, whatever savings there were over a SS barrel are gone and then some.

Barrels are consumables, not life-of-the-rifle parts.

You got to it before I could add it in: but does cryo'ing affect hardness if at all? Gunsmiths love how cryo'd barrels handle machining, so it seems they'd be softer..? Any idea?

 

[308pirate]

"Cryo" treatments do nothing other than waste your money. They certainly don't soften metals.

 

[steve123]

One thing seen often in the AR world but strangely not with bolt guns, is melonited chrome moly barrels. With the CM's almost always being cheaper than the SS tubes with the various barrel makers & having the same accuracy potential/no difference, it seems like a no-brainer for CM barrels that are melonited to be more popular among bolt rifle builds but they ain't for some reason. I've wondered why this is the case, given that you'll end up with a much longer lasting barrel going this route(provided that use a company who does it properly obviously). Only thing I can think is folks just don't want to spend the money for nitriding..?? It's something I'd like to try personally, and nitride-treated barrels just look fckn awesome IMO!!


From what I gathered from 5-6 years ago, the success of meloniting was hit and miss. Most guys were breaking in their barrels, cleaning them the best they could, then sending them off for meloniting. I'm not sure but I'm guessing that once a barrel has been shot through I'm thinking that it can never be perfectly clean again causing some kind of failure in the treatment later on??? Besides that, at least one of the Co's doing the treatment was doing a poor job of it.

The one barrel I had done, a Schneider polygonal, the GS polished the throat to remove any burrs and sent it off. That barrel went to 3000 rounds in 6x47L and cost me about $100 extra with shipping. It was a good barrel and gave me lots of wins.

I've chickened out since because the thought of losing the melonited barrel lottery by spending the extra $100 on top of the regular costs of chambering , etc, and not getting a good barrel is a horrible thought. On the other hand 1500 rounds barrel life through a 6mm does suck. That's why I'm tempted to try a 6mm BR, I might try that 6mmBRA the next barrel. I'm not good enough to win any long range matches anymore anyway so I might as well sacrifice some velocity and enjoy the other benefits of the little cases.

 

[308pirate]

One thing seen often in the AR world but strangely not with bolt guns, is melonited chrome moly barrels.

Perfect example of the metallurgical illiteracy of the average ARFCOM mouth breather. Why in the fuck would you waste money nitriding a barrel when the most important part of it (the bore) will not accept any nitrogen diffusion (and thus won't develop a hard case) because it's already covered in chromium? Copper plating is the most common heat treat maskant to prevent carbon and nitride diffusion into the base steel, and I'm pretty sure chromium will act the same way (or better).

Gun owners should leave this shit to engineers who know WTF they're doing.

 

[cageli]

I exclusively shoot green mountain barrel unless I bought used barrel from other makes. These are my groups last Friday @ 100 yards when doing load development for one 6.5x47 L, made from 1:8 green mountain blank. These are not cherry picked, all 5 shots. It's on my Remington 700 action running about 2920fps with 120 Lapua Scenar L.

My opinion is, for PRS style shooting, GM is sufficient. For BR shooting, no you need something better.

 

[308pirate]

I exclusively shoot green mountain barrel unless I bought used barrel from other makes. These are my groups last Friday @ 100 yards when doing load development for one 6.5x47 L, made from 1:8 green mountain blank. These are not cherry picked, all 5 shots. It's on my Remington 700 action running about 2920fps with 120 Lapua Scenar L.

My opinion is, for PRS style shooting, GM is sufficient. For BR shooting, no you need something better.

Shit that's sufficient for PRS, highpower, Palma, and F-class

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

One thing seen often in the AR world but strangely not with bolt guns, is melonited chrome moly barrels. With the CM's almost always being cheaper than the SS tubes with the various barrel makers & having the same accuracy potential/no difference, it seems like a no-brainer for CM barrels that are melonited to be more popular among bolt rifle builds but they ain't for some reason. I've wondered why this is the case, given that you'll end up with a much longer lasting barrel going this route(provided that use a company who does it properly obviously). Only thing I can think is folks just don't want to spend the money for nitriding..?? It's something I'd like to try personally, and nitride-treated barrels just look fckn awesome IMO!!


From what I gathered from 5-6 years ago, the success of meloniting was hit and miss. Most guys were breaking in their barrels, cleaning them the best they could, then sending them off for meloniting. I'm not sure but I'm guessing that once a barrel has been shot through I'm thinking that it can never be perfectly clean again causing some kind of failure in the treatment later on??? Besides that, at least one of the Co's doing the treatment was doing a poor job of it.

The one barrel I had done, a Schneider polygonal, the GS polished the throat to remove any burrs and sent it off. That barrel went to 3000 rounds in 6x47L and cost me about $100 extra with shipping. It was a good barrel and gave me lots of wins.

I've chickened out since because the thought of losing the melonited barrel lottery by spending the extra $100 on top of the regular costs of chambering , etc, and not getting a good barrel is a horrible thought. On the other hand 1500 rounds barrel life through a 6mm does suck. That's why I'm tempted to try a 6mm BR, I might try that 6mmBRA the next barrel. I'm not good enough to win any long range matches anymore anyway so I might as well sacrifice some velocity and enjoy the other benefits of the little cases.

If you can get a good feeding 6 BR/BRA/Dasher, youll have a badass rifle. The BR and improved variants are hands down most accurate cartridges out there. The only thing thatll shoot better than BR/Dashers/etc are PPC's, and thats only at 100-300yd. Anything 300-1000yd, the BR cases dominate. A well-built 6.5x47 can come damn close to a BR for precision also, but doesnt quite give you the ease of load dev. The .300 WSM is also a super accurate round, and will stay with/beat a BR/BRA/Dasher/etc when the winds pick up heavy.

 

[Red_SC]

I'm more worried about the other aspects of barrel making than how it was rifled, although most that I install are cut rifled. I recently built another AR10 in .308 from a Broughton button rifles blank, and it shoots as well as any cut barrel.

I do have a Green Mountain on my personal 6.5 Creedmoor gas gun. I consider it a good but not great shooter, but I've fed it only factory ammo. It's been good enough to go first to the prize table, but I've built nearly identical rifles from premium blanks that shoot better.

 

[deersniper]

I'm confused. ... or more accurately, dumbfounded that when questions like this arise, all anyone wants to do is talk. Academic discussions about something that is SO EASILY proven.

Stop talking. Post your damn groups or individual shots. How hard is that?

Every serious rifleman knows data logging is not a negotiable part of being a true student of the discipline. Recording rifle/load/shooter performance is part of that discipline. Stop talking, and show. Words have absolutely NO value in this discussion. ... yet all people want to do is talk.

I know why. ... because people plant their flag on a company or an idea, and they think it reflects poorly on them if they move their flag. Well I plant my flag on performance. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there are no less than a dozen barrel manufacturers in this country that can produce sub-1/4moa rifle blanks. Some do it more consistently than others... but anyone trying to convince me that one is so vastly superior to the other is going to have a tough time of it. Bartlein, krieger, brux, benchmark, mcgowen, hawk hill, white oak, on and on and on. I've seen tiny little knots printed from damn near every one of those companies more than just a few times.

No one ever wants to talk about the truth.

The truth is NONE of them can guarantee every barrel will be capable of winning a national benchrest competition. If you ask any of them why one barrel is so good and another is just so-so... they can't tell you why either. They can list possibilities, but they don't KNOW. If you order 20 barrels from all the major companies, chances are that one of those 20, or maybe even 2 or 3 of them will be real lasers. Some companies will produce fewer duds than the next, and that will change from month to month, production to production. You might have to buy 500 barrels before you'd find one that was truly capable of shooting in the zero's all the time. ... and then, could you shoot it that well all the time? No, probably not.

If everyone shut the hell up about what they "thought" and just posted the performance they have actually seen, we'd see the truth. The truth that damn near EVERY ONE of the custom barrel makers are turning out crazy good barrels. Cut rifled, button rifled, forged, doesn't make one damn bit of difference. If I cherry picked my groups from the Benchmark barrels I've been shooting and posted them... NO ONE is going to show up with groups that would be significantly smaller... because they are all in the .1's or .0's. At least a few dozen of them in the last couple years. Yet that's not the delta... 1/4-1/3moa is the delta. That's the kind of performance I've come to expect. Yet I know for a fact there are guys that can say the same thing about their chosen manufacturer's barrels. So why is this being talked about as if it is some intangible academic thing that can't be proven? Anyone that works in this industry that is tasked with load development can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there are a metric fuckton of custom manufacturers capable of producing great barrels. Capable, and proven to do so.

These discussions where people are talking with such certainty and finality about something so complex is just about the most infuriating thing for anyone with real experience to read. Case in point:

Look at this rifling. This is from a Benchmark 6.5mm barrel. Saw this the first time I cleaned the rifle.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/QILObZC.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/3qOSJrY.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/lWPuPzU.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Most shooters would lose their shit upon seeing this in one of their barrels. OMG THE HORROR!!!!!! Yet I'm not an academic shooter... I'm an ACTUAL shooter, so when I want to know how a barrel will shoot, I FUCKING SHOOT IT! I started with some 140VLD's. Wouldn't shoot them for shit. Tried like 8 different types of powder and every seating depth imaginable. Wouldn't shoot them. Switched to 140 hybrids and this barrel is one of the most accurate and stable barrels I've ever owned. Here's a video of me putting down a 5" group or so at 985yds. First shots of the day.

https://streamable.com/xzjnq

Not bad for something with such butchered rifling. I never even called benchmark. Why would I? Who gives a shit what it looks like or how it was made. They could have rifled it with a bent paper clip for all I care. Who gives a shit when it shoots like that? First shots of the day and windy as hell too. Yet I know for a fact there are shooters on this forum that would have called benchmark and read them the riot act without ever firing a damn shot through the thing. You trying to tell me that the difference in button vs cut rifling is going to make one damn bit of difference when a barrel with rifling like THAT shoots so well?

I have the same discussions with guys looking to buy rifle scopes. They want to talk for hours on end about what material the scope tube is made from or whether or not this coating or that coating was used. All because they are under the misguided impression that this knowledge will somehow mitigate the risk of spending money on the thing. ... which is hilarious because most of them don't have a singular fucking clue about what the right answers should be anyway. They read some garbage some other academic typer-sniper posted on a forum one time and then accepted it as fact.

Things either work or they don't. If something doesn't work, the company will either stand behind it or they won't. How they're made doesn't make one shits bit of difference.

So, why all the bullshit? Why all the talk? When someone asks about barrel performance, why doesn't everyone just show him as I've done?

I'd say that I'd get off my soap box now, but I'd be lying. I like it up here.

Lmao. Great info. Liken a breath of fresh air.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have three distributor branded button rifled barrels, at least two of which I strongly suspect were sourced form Liberty, Satern's button rifling subsidiary.

They scope out as beautiful. Load development is still underway.

Bore life, we're miles away from that just yet.

My barrels are Savage factory, L-W, Stag precision Bull (McGowen?), and AR Stoner (Liberty?)

Greg

 

[esromvre]

I'm confused. ... or more accurately, dumbfounded that when questions like this arise, all anyone wants to do is talk. Academic discussions about something that is SO EASILY proven.

Stop talking. Post your damn groups or individual shots. How hard is that?

Every serious rifleman knows data logging is not a negotiable part of being a true student of the discipline. Recording rifle/load/shooter performance is part of that discipline. Stop talking, and show. Words have absolutely NO value in this discussion. ... yet all people want to do is talk.

I know why. ... because people plant their flag on a company or an idea, and they think it reflects poorly on them if they move their flag. Well I plant my flag on performance. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there are no less than a dozen barrel manufacturers in this country that can produce sub-1/4moa rifle blanks. Some do it more consistently than others... but anyone trying to convince me that one is so vastly superior to the other is going to have a tough time of it. Bartlein, krieger, brux, benchmark, mcgowen, hawk hill, white oak, on and on and on. I've seen tiny little knots printed from damn near every one of those companies more than just a few times.

No one ever wants to talk about the truth.

The truth is NONE of them can guarantee every barrel will be capable of winning a national benchrest competition. If you ask any of them why one barrel is so good and another is just so-so... they can't tell you why either. They can list possibilities, but they don't KNOW. If you order 20 barrels from all the major companies, chances are that one of those 20, or maybe even 2 or 3 of them will be real lasers. Some companies will produce fewer duds than the next, and that will change from month to month, production to production. You might have to buy 500 barrels before you'd find one that was truly capable of shooting in the zero's all the time. ... and then, could you shoot it that well all the time? No, probably not.

If everyone shut the hell up about what they "thought" and just posted the performance they have actually seen, we'd see the truth. The truth that damn near EVERY ONE of the custom barrel makers are turning out crazy good barrels. Cut rifled, button rifled, forged, doesn't make one damn bit of difference. If I cherry picked my groups from the Benchmark barrels I've been shooting and posted them... NO ONE is going to show up with groups that would be significantly smaller... because they are all in the .1's or .0's. At least a few dozen of them in the last couple years. Yet that's not the delta... 1/4-1/3moa is the delta. That's the kind of performance I've come to expect. Yet I know for a fact there are guys that can say the same thing about their chosen manufacturer's barrels. So why is this being talked about as if it is some intangible academic thing that can't be proven? Anyone that works in this industry that is tasked with load development can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there are a metric fuckton of custom manufacturers capable of producing great barrels. Capable, and proven to do so.

These discussions where people are talking with such certainty and finality about something so complex is just about the most infuriating thing for anyone with real experience to read. Case in point:

Look at this rifling. This is from a Benchmark 6.5mm barrel. Saw this the first time I cleaned the rifle.

Most shooters would lose their shit upon seeing this in one of their barrels. OMG THE HORROR!!!!!! Yet I'm not an academic shooter... I'm an ACTUAL shooter, so when I want to know how a barrel will shoot, I FUCKING SHOOT IT! I started with some 140VLD's. Wouldn't shoot them for shit. Tried like 8 different types of powder and every seating depth imaginable. Wouldn't shoot them. Switched to 140 hybrids and this barrel is one of the most accurate and stable barrels I've ever owned. Here's a video of me putting down a 5" group or so at 985yds. First shots of the day.



Not bad for something with such butchered rifling. I never even called benchmark. Why would I? Who gives a shit what it looks like or how it was made. They could have rifled it with a bent paper clip for all I care. Who gives a shit when it shoots like that? First shots of the day and windy as hell too. Yet I know for a fact there are shooters on this forum that would have called benchmark and read them the riot act without ever firing a damn shot through the thing. You trying to tell me that the difference in button vs cut rifling is going to make one damn bit of difference when a barrel with rifling like THAT shoots so well?

I have the same discussions with guys looking to buy rifle scopes. They want to talk for hours on end about what material the scope tube is made from or whether or not this coating or that coating was used. All because they are under the misguided impression that this knowledge will somehow mitigate the risk of spending money on the thing. ... which is hilarious because most of them don't have a singular fucking clue about what the right answers should be anyway. They read some garbage some other academic typer-sniper posted on a forum one time and then accepted it as fact.

Things either work or they don't. If something doesn't work, the company will either stand behind it or they won't. How they're made doesn't make one shits bit of difference.

So, why all the bullshit? Why all the talk? When someone asks about barrel performance, why doesn't everyone just show him as I've done?

I'd say that I'd get off my soap box now, but I'd be lying. I like it up here.

Well said

 

[DocRDS]

Is the necromancer class new or WTF is going on lately.

Damn Fedbois

 

[chevy_man]

Is the necromancer class new or WTF is going on lately.

Damn Fedbois

I think it's the similar threads at the bottom of every thread. It's caught me a few times where I started reading, then got confused, and finally noticed the dates...