Buyer not satisfied

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cal74

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Minuteman
Jun 23, 2009
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Brookings, SD
#1
Looking for opinions - Recently sold a firearm on another forum, older rifle advertised as good to vg condition with handeling marks and blueing wear with pictures to support it. Sold it at a discount of probably a couple hundred cheaper than the same gun with perfect bluing.

Bore is good - Never discussed a return policy and no additional pictures were asked for.

The good business part of me says fine, send it back if it hasn't been transferred as I'm not paying a transfer fee back to myself and I'll refund the difference minus the shipping (two packages).

The other part of me says to heck with it, might be buyers remorse but nothing was hidden. Don't want to ruin my reputation or someone else having second thoughts.
 
#2
Up to you. If it were me I would call the FFL on his end and ask what price they would be interested in the rifle at. If they were interested at a price where the difference was no more then the price he paid minus the cost to return it then just tell him to get his money from his dealer. I might even chip in $50.
 
#3
Very simply...Did you fuck him or is he being a douche? You know damned well if the pictures you sent really showed the true condition or not. If they do then sleep easy. If not then do the right thing. This ain’t rocket science.
 
#4
Appreciate the responses - I sent two good pictures and personally I think I represented the rifle, if more pictures would have been requested I would have done so.

He says a bore scope shows pitting and a rough chamber, I do not own a borescope but to the naked eye the bore looks good.

I offered to take it back, minus 10% plus the shipping costs or offered 50.00 bucks back to him. I hadn't realized he had already done the transfer, so now it would have to be transferred back to me which is about 2 hours round trip for me and 30.00. I'm not going through that hassle as I didn't hide anything and while this will bother me, I think it's more a case of buyers remorse and him thinking he got a smoking deal on a perfect rifle.

I'm sure my name will be thrown through the ringer and it bothers me someone is upset, but I'm not going to be out shipping, all my time and now transfer fees.
 
#5
Bore scopes can also show problems in completely new rifles and barrels.
If a bore inspection was needed, he should have asked for it before committing to the purchase.
He knew he was buying an older rifle.

15 years ago, I sold a Leopold scope to a guy and described exactly what was visible to the naked eye. I had great eyesight back then.
The price was well under market value.
I get an email from him stating it's scratched up and flawed.
I have to assume he looked at it with a high powered microscope or something.
I offered to return his money and pay return shipping.
He refused and kept bitching.
I ended up telling him that if he wanted a perfectly new scope, then he should have bought it from a store in a box.

I offered one last time to return his money and he refused, so I told him to fuck off.
 
#6
Congratulations, you've just entered the world of "The customer is always Right". Which is bullshit, but it's the way it is. Something to consider; how valuable is your reputation on the other forum? If you plan on doing further business there, it might be worth your while to take the hit and save your reputation. A pain in the ass (I know), but better in the long run.

I sold a high end Vortex on Ebay last year, the buyer immediatley found something wrong with a perfectly good scope. Either buyers remorse or his wife busted him. Cost me some cash to make things right, but it did save my 100% feedback. No more scope sales on Ebay.

You know the situation better than I. Do what you think is right.
 
#7
Nodakplowboy said:
Congratulations, you've just entered the world of "The customer is always Right". Which is bullshit, but it's the way it is. .
Click to expand...

apparently most people havent learned that " the customer is always right" means that the customer knows what they want to buy.......not that every complaint the customer has is valid and needs to be addressed.

 
#8
cal74 said:
Appreciate the responses - I sent two good pictures and personally I think I represented the rifle, if more pictures would have been requested I would have done so.

He says a bore scope shows pitting and a rough chamber, I do not own a borescope but to the naked eye the bore looks good..
Click to expand...
I would tell him to fuck off. Like someone else said, if he wanted a borescope inspection he should have asked you for one.

In any event inspecting a used rifle, advertised as Good to Very Good, with a borescope is a dick move and tells me the buyer is an unreasonable pain in the ass.

Your only mistake was to not specify "sold as-is, where-is".
 
#9
I have sold many items on eBay it always amazes me what people are willing to pay for slightly used items, and for the most part I haven’t had any problems. I got a deal on three very high dollar never used, but out the box deep well pumps I took very good pictures and explained that the pumps were never used, but out of the box and were being sold as such. I sold them individually and the last one had this jerkoff try to tell me he felt the pump was used I told him if he wasn’t happy to send it back to me (even though on my post I very clearly stated I didn’t accept returns) I even offered a full 100% refund including shipping and this asshole still left me with negative feedback.......morale of the story you just can’t please everyone no matter what.
 
#10
Mike Casselton said:
Bore scopes can also show problems in completely new rifles and barrels.
If a bore inspection was needed, he should have asked for it before committing to the purchase.
He knew he was buying an older rifle.

15 years ago, I sold a Leopold scope to a guy and described exactly what was visible to the naked eye. I had great eyesight back then.
The price was well under market value.
I get an email from him stating it's scratched up and flawed.
I have to assume he looked at it with a high powered microscope or something.
I offered to return his money and pay return shipping.
He refused and kept bitching.
I ended up telling him that if he wanted a perfectly new scope, then he should have bought it from a store in a box.

I offered one last time to return his money and he refused, so I told him to fuck off.
Click to expand...

Same happened to me when selling some commie rifles after the 08 election. Asshole called wanting some money back. Rifle was exactly as described. I offered refund if he would return it. Refused the refund and kept bitching. My response was go fuck yourself and hung up.
 
#11
cal74 said:
Looking for opinions - Recently sold a firearm on another forum, older rifle advertised as good to vg condition with handeling marks and blueing wear with pictures to support it. Sold it at a discount of probably a couple hundred cheaper than the same gun with perfect bluing.

Bore is good - Never discussed a return policy and no additional pictures were asked for.

The good business part of me says fine, send it back if it hasn't been transferred as I'm not paying a transfer fee back to myself and I'll refund the difference minus the shipping (two packages).

The other part of me says to heck with it, might be buyers remorse but nothing was hidden. Don't want to ruin my reputation or someone else having second thoughts.
Click to expand...

Here are two iPhone pictures of the rifle's heavily pitted bore. Bore is not good...

2ci8pbk.jpg
29zu48x.jpg



 
#12
Those pics don't show anything worth complaining about on a used rifle. Unless he bought is subject to bore scope inspection fuck him.
 
#14
You guys are like a couple of little kids. Call each other and come to a resolution and quite looking for people to agree with you. The bottom line is make one another happy. Life is way to short for guys getting their butt hurt over a couple hundred dollars.
 
#17
In the vintage shotgun world, we used to have a saying when considering buying a 100+ year old shotgun from an internet sale -"It'll cost you a hundred bucks to look at it." Meaning, you pay the shipping both ways if you reject it. Seller generally agrees to take it back as long as that condition is met. Guns manufactured prior to 1898 do not need a transfer, so that simplifies things a bit, but there are a ton of fine shotguns manufactured after that that do require a transfer. If you do the transfer, you have accepted the gun. If you're going to reject it, you do it before the transfer, even if it means bringing your gunsmithing tools with you to the transfer dealer (we always do - bore mics, calipers, etc.). I suppose if you made the transfer and then wanted to reject it you could work a deal to return it, but buyer should reimburse seller for the transfer fee as well. Buyer in this case really should not have done the transfer until he was sure he was keeping it.

As stated, the simplest solution is to agree upon a different price that reflects any defects that the seller may not have known about. Not all sellers are gunsmiths and may have no way of knowing about certain problems. On the other hand, a certain amount of normal wear and tear is to be expected if a gun isn't advertised as mint.
 
#18
kingston said:
Here are two iPhone pictures of the rifle's heavily pitted bore. Bore is not good...

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/a68.tinypic.com\/2ci8pbk.jpg"}[/IMG2][IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/a66.tinypic.com\/29zu48x.jpg"}[/IMG2]
Click to expand...

.....dud that bore is fine.......a couple little pits are not going to have any impact on accuracy or shootability of the bore.......nor is that what i would call "heavily pitted" ......for a used gun, that is what i would call "good condition"....bear in mind "good" =/= "perfect"........use some JB bore paste if they bother you that much

stop complaining, and buy a new gun if you want a new gun
 
#19
That's just what could be photographed from the muzzle end with an iPhone. No other instrumentation was used. Go try and photograph a 22 cal. bore with an iPhone. Bore pitting was obvious to the naked eye at first glance. The seller exaggerated condition plain and simple.
 
#20
The OP is looking for justification on a crooked deal.

See: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...o-rhimmiki-222

He NEVER revealed the bore condition. Who has EVER seen a 222 with a pitted bore. I have owned 30 used ones since 1956 and NEVER seen a pitted bore.

EVERY auction gun site has a 3 or 5 day "no shoot" inspection period ----- why not this guy ? Why because he knew it was a POS and wanted to foist it off on some trusting soul.

Over the past decade I have bought/sold DOZENS of guns and scopes on that site with NEVER a problem. This guy is an abberation and should be banned right now.

He has not the guts to:
a) go back there and justify his sleeze
b) refund the buyers $ less return shipping

He's dead at the CF and will be elsewhere as most members there are members on MANY sites and will spread the word.

If people like cameron think you can remove deep pitting like that with JB, I have some M-1s salvaged at Normandy I'd like to sell him.

No matter how crooked the crook, there will always be defenders !
 
#22
KRW, go to the link I posted. First post has desc and pics.

Look and draw your own conclusions.

Seller has 5700 posts on the CF and is now TOAST over $675.00.

"A'int no cure for stupid."
 
#23
saturn said:
The OP is looking for justification on a crooked deal.

See: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...o-rhimmiki-222

He NEVER revealed the bore condition. Who has EVER seen a 222 with a pitted bore. I have owned 30 used ones since 1956 and NEVER seen a pitted bore.

EVERY auction gun site has a 3 or 5 day "no shoot" inspection period ----- why not this guy ? Why because he knew it was a POS and wanted to foist it off on some trusting soul.

Over the past decade I have bought/sold DOZENS of guns and scopes on that site with NEVER a problem. This guy is an abberation and should be banned right now.

He has not the guts to:
a) go back there and justify his sleeze
b) refund the buyers $ less return shipping

He's dead at the CF and will be elsewhere as most members there are members on MANY sites and will spread the word.

If people like cameron think you can remove deep pitting like that with JB, I have some M-1s salvaged at Normandy I'd like to sell him.

No matter how crooked the crook, there will always be defenders !
Click to expand...

You joined here today, just to post that one post? What brought you here?
 
#24
saturn said:
If people like cameron think you can remove deep pitting like that with JB, I have some M-1s salvaged at Normandy I'd like to sell him.
Click to expand...

shoot me a PM.....ill take em.... ill gladly enjoy shooting them for you.

people dont realize just how little a "bad looking bore" has on the accuracy of a rifle


 
#25
Jeezus Krist, really? I knew when the OP posted this it was gonna get shitty. Was gonna post right after he put this shit up then had a moment of "why". Let's not feed this shit on here. You Lady's take this shit back to your beloved 24hrCF and stop shitting in our backyard. This thing's going the route of the shitter real soon I'm betting so either fuck off or toss your hail mary before the hammer falls. Fucking idiots.........
 
#26
onpoint said:
You guys are like a couple of little kids. Call each other and come to a resolution and quite looking for people to agree with you. The bottom line is make one another happy. Life is way to short for guys getting their butt hurt over a couple hundred dollars.
Click to expand...

+1

I've bought used Rossi .357 lever action carbine on Gunbroker. Seller description was kind of close to actual condition. However, seller failed to disclose a couple of bad things which immediately revealed themselves after I removed the magazine tube and forend for inspection. We did settle the dispute between us without doing any bitching in public, although I'm still slightly pissed off about this deal.

Lessons learned. I'm not buying any more used guns unless I can actually inspect what I'm buying before completing the transaction.
 
Last edited:
#27
:mad:24hr has a bunch of butt buddies. I can guarantee these guys no each other. Kingston posted a link to this post over on 24 hr. This happens everytime a deal goes south. Call each other and resolve it. Can’t be that hard.
 
#29
#30
https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/the-over-rated-crown.670/ Whenever I hear about people complaining about bores and crowns this is what I think about. Having been in the gun business for 10 years next year, there are always going to be customers you can't make happy and who are going to be unreasonable. More importantly than that I believe that myself and my store, we work for You (the customer). It would be a lie to say I don't feel like anytime I'm dealing with an upset customer I'm being held hostage by Google reviews whether they know it or not. Generally speaking I will bend over backwards and take a loss to make it right even if we did nothing wrong on our end and the customer is just having buyers remorse. If myself or one of my guys screwed up we make it right hands down, no questions asked. My reputation is exceedingly important to me. Dealing with a return here and there is a cost of doing business.

However, not having an account to actually view the pictures of the exterior condition of the rifle, I can't attest to his description. Good to Very Good leaves a whole butt load of leeway for interpretation and there is no mention of the bore condition. If the rifle shoots halfway decent, bore pitting seems irrelevant. My guess is the buyer of the rifle was so excited by this rifle being several hundred dollars beneath market value he just posted 'I'll take it.' without asking questions.

Probably a combination of some lying through omissions and an over eager buyer who thought he was getting a screaming deal and couldn't be bothered asking questions.
 
#31
Bulldog Firearms said:
https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/the-over-rated-crown.670/ Whenever I hear about people complaining about bores and crowns this is what I think about. Having been in the gun business for 10 years next year, there are always going to be customers you can't make happy and who are going to be unreasonable. More importantly than that I believe that myself and my store, we work for You (the customer). It would be a lie to say I don't feel like anytime I'm dealing with an upset customer I'm being held hostage by Google reviews whether they know it or not. Generally speaking I will bend over backwards and take a loss to make it right even if we did nothing wrong on our end and the customer is just having buyers remorse. If myself or one of my guys screwed up we make it right hands down, no questions asked. My reputation is exceedingly important to me. Dealing with a return here and there is a cost of doing business.

However, not having an account to actually view the pictures of the exterior condition of the rifle, I can't attest to his description. Good to Very Good leaves a whole butt load of leeway for interpretation and there is no mention of the bore condition. If the rifle shoots halfway decent, bore pitting seems irrelevant. My guess is the buyer of the rifle was so excited by this rifle being several hundred dollars beneath market value he just posted 'I'll take it.' without asking questions.

Probably a combination of some lying through omissions and an over eager buyer who thought he was getting a screaming deal and couldn't be bothered asking questions.
Click to expand...

That brought their fucking shit show from there to here, that's the god damn point. It's not needed, nor wanted here. We stir up our own shit just fine........... :confused:
 
#32
so, you make a deal on one site, then come to another to argue about it? does. not. compute.

i've made deals on gunbroker, graybeards, bowsite, and here on the hide..... as well as many other places. i've never had bullshit. i fail to see what is so hard.

i take the stance that i wouldnt do anything online that i would do face to face. partly, because there are folks like me out there, that'll show up and discuss things face to face. but mainly, because i believe in honor and integrity.
 
#33
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/681971428 Cal74's GB listing for anyone else that can't see the pics on 24hr.

Seems to me like Kingston saw the add and thought he was going to get a "Great buy" (as one 24hr poster put it), and posted he would take it without even asking for barrel pics. He is now butt hurt that he got exactly the condition of rifle he paid for. A pitted and rough blueing example on GB right now for more than he paid OP http://www.gunbroker.com/item/708618989. Looks like this model in excellent condition goes for about $1400. But you thought you were getting a $1300 rifle for $700?
 
#34
saturn said:
MCameron, I'll sell you the lot of ten for $50,000, cash only. You can pick them up at Chambres d'hôtes de l'Eglise. Let me know when you are arriving and I'll have Louis meet you.


VH20, if you do not believe crooks should be outed ----- well wait till you are suckered in to buying a totally misrepresented gun.

Have you read the 24HRCF thread ? Did you look at the seller's pics ?

I've been a member here before, just lost my log in info.
Click to expand...

Sure, crooks should be outed. I just believe it's a bit odd for someone to join a forum just to take a side in a disagreement. If you were here before, I guess it's a little different, but still a weird reason to activate again. As 1J said, this isn't our fight. It needs to go somewhere else.

I saw the thread. I saw where King posted that the bore pitting and the rust on the barrel that was buffed poorly was visible "at first glance."

So why complete the transfer if he saw all that at first glance? He could have stopped the whole thing right there and IF the seller refused to take it back this would truly be all on him. If the buyer completed the transfer, why complain about it later? Don't transfer it if you don't want it.

I'm not taking a side either way here, but pointing out that the story has more than one side to it, from this point of view. We were asked our opinion, then we have to argue about it when we don't give the answer that was hoped for? They should take it somewhere else.

No I did not see the seller's pics because you have to be a site member to view them, and I have no intention of becoming one.
 
#36
jr81452 said:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/681971428 Cal74's GB listing for anyone else that can't see the pics on 24hr.

Seems to me like Kingston saw the add and thought he was going to get a "Great buy" (as one 24hr poster put it), and posted he would take it without even asking for barrel pics. He is now butt hurt that he got exactly the condition of rifle he paid for. A pitted and rough blueing example on GB right now for more than he paid OP http://www.gunbroker.com/item/708618989. Looks like this model in excellent condition goes for about $1400. But you thought you were getting a $1300 rifle for $700?
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing out the expired GB listing. I hadn't seen that.
 
#38
kingston Kingston
Neither A1J nor myself said you were the one to bring the issue here. The OP is responsible for that.
Initially it sounded like the OP was looking for sound advice. Like any story or situation, there's always more than one side to it.

You have brought the other side to us.

What A1J was referring to was the unnecessary drama that comes up in a situation like this.

References, feedback, clear photos and specific information are necessary in any non face to face transactions.
At the top of our for sale section here on the Hide is a guideline for just that.

The responsibility of a clean transaction rests with both parties.
Being upfront about what's for sale and what the buyer is wanting should be done by both without the other party asking after the fact.

Seller: State exactly what is for sale. Show the flaws in the pics so there are no surprises.

Buyer: If you have questions or specific needs to be met, state it upfront.

If people would do these simple things, transactions would be really smooth
 
#40
Just for the record: the seller REFUSED to take the rifle back. (As EVERY on line auction site requires)

So defend the undefendable all you want. He's still not the kind of person that would survive on GunBroker or GunAuction very long.

I'm sure all his defenders here would be 100% satisfied to accept this "Very Good" rifle.

For those who forgot/don't know this is NRA VG condition for modern firearms.


"VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches."

I'm sure Bill Clinton could wiggle his way out of it but the meaning of "no corrosion or pitting" is crystal clear to this old fart.

The seller has buried his butt on 24HRCF and I'm sure the word about him will be spread far and wide. Losing your reputation over chump change is room temp IQ stuff.

Still waiting to hear back on those M-1s --------
 
#42
saturn said:
Just for the record: the seller REFUSED to take the rifle back. (As EVERY on line auction site requires)

So defend the undefendable all you want. He's still not the kind of person that would survive on GunBroker or GunAuction very long.

I'm sure all his defenders here would be 100% satisfied to accept this "Very Good" rifle.

For those who forgot/don't know this is NRA VG condition for modern firearms.


"VERY GOOD: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches."

I'm sure Bill Clinton could wiggle his way out of it but the meaning of "no corrosion or pitting" is crystal clear to this old fart.

The seller has buried his butt on 24HRCF and I'm sure the word about him will be spread far and wide. Losing your reputation over chump change is room temp IQ stuff.

Still waiting to hear back on those M-1s --------
Click to expand...

cool your tits would you......no one here really give a shit about your problems......nor do we really have sympathy for a guy who bought a gun for a steal of a price, and didnt have the forethought to ask for more pictures or additional info....Caveat Emptor

regarding the M1s.....since you described them as having poor bores, the best i can do is $100/ per.
 
#45
Cal is hiding, in case you missed it.

Amazing how a crook can be defended by those who would go ballistic had then be screwed over like this.

All of you should take a trip back to the CF as there are new photos showing the extent of pitting OUTSIDE as well as in.

Probably some here would defend Charlie Manson as a poor misunderstood boy.

Won't be buying anything on this site as the absence of ethics is paraded with great pride,
 
#46
saturn said:
Cal is hiding, in case you missed it.
Click to expand...

oooooor, maybe the dude just has a life and doesnt devote every minute to arguing with morons on the internets.

and coming over here and bitching because we dont all of a sudden hop all over your dick when you spew your sob story isnt going to win anyone over to your side.

so you can take your bitch ass back to your camp fire and take your drama with you.
 
#47
saturn said:
Cal is hiding, in case you missed it.

Amazing how a crook can be defended by those who would go ballistic had then be screwed over like this.

All of you should take a trip back to the CF as there are new photos showing the extent of pitting OUTSIDE as well as in.

Probably some here would defend Charlie Manson as a poor misunderstood boy.

Won't be buying anything on this site as the absence of ethics is paraded with great pride,
Click to expand...

You are a little bitch. Pull up your panties and go back to camp fire and give each other hand jobs. Or whatever the fuck you do over there. No one here gives a rats ass. Advice was asked. It was given. Several opinions to satisfy everyone. Now git the fuck out.
 
#48
VG to me is not a pitted inside or out. Doesn't matter the asking price. Seller stated condition. Good could be misconstrued 100 different ways. VG to me is close to perfect. Maybe some bluing wear on an old gun. Maybe a few scratches. VG is a standard used by most of us who sell guns to mean a certain thing. I have read Cals posts on AR and other Sites. IIRC he got screwed on a "misrepresented" hunting trip. I have paid shipping, driven hours out of my way, offered money off when FedEx F'd up the shipment, etc. Just like when I agreed with him on his hunt about it being on the Seller it's the same here. Either way, posting here for confirmation bias that selling a pitted gun outside and in as VG should be acceptable tells me he knows he is wrong. He is hoping this $h!t show will help bolster his opinion he is in the right. Sorry, in your shoes I would say f it and return the money + shipping and post more pics that better represent what I was selling.
 
#49
And before someone makes a dumb@ss comment about my lack of posts here go back to the old site. I have been a Member since the early-mid 2000s under the same name. I don't post on the new Scout site much.
 
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