BWA 10x100

[THEIS]

Hi,

So some of you may or may not know that Blackwater Ammunition has a new ELR cartridge, projectile and powder combination they have been working on.

It is the 10x100 (with 420gr projectile) shown in photo below for comparison to their 375CT, 50BMG and 12.7x108

Quick Update:
I just finished speaking with BWA in regards to public release of data and the below is what I got for now.
Hopefully I can release more ballistic data mid May........

Sincerely,
Theis

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are currently in the middle of our testing and soon we will be able to share a full ballistic report.

Same goes for the reamer, actually we do have one in the US already, so maybe we can cooperate on that too.

Please drop a line again after the 15th of May and we should be able to have updates.

Again thank you and

Best Regards.

Nicola Bandini.

 

[phlegethon]

Those are some pointy bullets. I'm a little confused though—their .50 BMG bullets have much lower BCs than I'd expect, lower than the Hornady AMAX. Are these G1s? Is someone exaggerating?

 

[Milepost]

Interesting..... Looks like it might be an improved 50BMG case pushing a 408 caliber bullet ?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

An unnoticeable feature of that cartridge case via picture is the weight.
It is 35% lighter than standard 50BMG cartridge case, yet functions with no problem at over 70k pressures.

In regards to BMG BC numbers....I have not gotten into that project for myself yet so I cannot say one way or another but I suspect they are published on the very conservative side

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[lash]

Interesting..... Looks like it might be an improved 50BMG case pushing a 408 caliber bullet ?

Based upon the nomenclature and relative size, I’m guessing 10mm.

 

[phlegethon]

Isn’t .408 basically 10mm?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Technically the 375CT is 9.5 and 408CT is 10.36 per their CIP specs.

Anybody remember the topics of the 395 Lapua Magnum a decade or so ago...
The 10x100 is the evolution of that project.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Milepost]

I wonder just how well this case design would take to being reloaded?

 

[THEIS]

I wonder just how well this case design would take to being reloaded?

Hi,

I do not see why there would be a problem with reloading but let me say I have NOT reloaded any of them myself yet. I do have a set of dies coming to go with that reamer that is already in USA,

Their cartridge case manufacturing is highly advanced past the "cup & draw" manufacturing for sure.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[xdeano]

Guessing the brass is $10 per, correct?
Xdeano

 

[Milepost]

Guessing the brass is $10 per, correct?
Xdeano

If it the cases can stand up to be resized and reloaded 5-6 times after being shot at 60-70K pressures it would be worth every penny!!

That 10X100 case is a pretty sweet . It being a two piece design, they could easily start a whole new family of cases by using the same base and then varying the top half for length and calibers...

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Milepost
The same base utilization concept was for that exact process you mentioned.
Be really nice using same base for BMG then change out "top" section of case for the 10mm, 416, 460, 375, 408, 420, etc etc.

Edited To Add:
In anticipation of pressure testing the BWA cartridge cases in regards to usable pressure..I decided to pressure test some normal 300WM brass today and see where the failure point was at.
For the scientific crowd--we did not use pressure/strain gauges but utilizing "theoretical" pressures from QL based on the load specifics we were testing for failures.
See attachment for QL information and results/observations.



Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ELR researcher]

THEIS - pray tell which action you were using...and what substance you were on to even consider firing a rifle using loads QL "suggested" would result in those pressure levels? Thanks?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The action was purposely removed from that information

That information will be coming very soon (I am finalizing production process) but in short...it is a new receiver that we purposefully designed from the ground up to operate at higher pressures because as has been said many times before.....There is no point in modern ELR being handicapped with yester-decades pressure scale.
The action design has very specific alloys with specific heat treatment specs and HRC numbers with the purpose of such pressures due to some new cartridge designs on the horizon.

Substance I was on.....I just call it "Advancement",

Will get sneak peek images later...

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ELR researcher]

Hi,

The action was purposely removed from that information

That information will be coming very soon (I am finalizing production process) but in short...it is a new receiver that we purposefully designed from the ground up to operate at higher pressures because as has been said many times before.....There is no point in modern ELR being handicapped with yester-decades pressure scale.
The action design has very specific alloys with specific heat treatment specs and HRC numbers with the purpose of such pressures due to some new cartridge designs on the horizon.

Substance I was on.....I just call it "Advancement",

Will get sneak peek images later...

Sincerely,
Theis

Assuming the action does its part at MUCH elevated pressure levels, what about the brass and barrels used with "extreme ELR/unlimited range" chamberings? Custom RCC brass? Special barrel steels and/or coating/hardening? I have always gone with barrel nitriding (QPQ) but seems something more (possibly much more) will be needed to withstand those elevated pressures. System approach... Thanks.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

System approach correct!!

That is why the pressure testing is posted in the 10x100 thread
The BWA cartridge cases are standing up to higher pressures than traditional cartridge brass...I will not know its failure rate until reamer and dies show up. Right now the BWA BMG brass has no problem with normal operation at 70k with no loose primers, etc etc.

Projectile design, alloy/coating is easier to plug into system right now instead of barrel steel/coating advancements.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ELR researcher]

Hi,

System approach correct!!

That is why the pressure testing is posted in the 10x100 thread
The BWA cartridge cases are standing up to higher pressures than traditional cartridge brass...I will not know its failure rate until reamer and dies show up. Right now the BWA BMG brass has no problem with normal operation at 70k with no loose primers, etc etc.

Projectile design, alloy/coating is easier to plug into system right now instead of barrel steel/coating advancements.

Sincerely,
Theis

The 10x100 BWA is a singular (currently proprietary) solution - both design and case locked to that particular cartridge. Hopefully your "system" extends WELL beyond just one cartridge. Regardless what you do to the bullet, the added velocity will directly translate into "detrimental" impacts on the barrel. You are familiar with "whack a...whatever", the game where you smack one head and another pops up in another hole. Same thing here. Coming up with a solution that takes barrel life down to the number of rounds needed to get a decent load developed is a non-starter.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

A projectile that is manufactured of a nano infused polymer molded/sintered over a tungsten core imparts how much less heat and friction into a barrel vs the same weight and velocity traditional monolithic?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[lash]

Hi,

A projectile that is manufactured of a nano infused polymer molded/sintered over a tungsten core imparts how much less heat and friction into a barrel vs the same weight and velocity traditional monolithic?

Sincerely,
Theis

You have been hinting at this type of projectile for a while now. It will be very interesting to see what results you get.

 

[THEIS]

You have been hinting at this type of projectile for a while now. It will be very interesting to see what results you get.

Hi,

PM sent.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[nick338]

Hi,

A projectile that is manufactured of a nano infused polymer molded/sintered over a tungsten core imparts how much less heat and friction into a barrel vs the same weight and velocity traditional monolithic?

Sincerely,
Theis

Projectile aside, how do you plan on compensating for the increased pressure and powder burned in the throat area?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

We can slightly reduce the powder burned in the throat area with being able to utilize a faster burning powder as long as we are not concerned with such restrictive pressure limits. (Enough to matter? Will have to find out)

Pressure is the pressure...I do not think we can effectively do much about that. But friction caused from pressure we can reduce per projectile designs/alloys/etc.

My plan is to test and run the 10x100 at 100k (After testing cartridge case to find its' limit) in a 7 twist, polygonal Chrome moly barrel properly nitrocarburized.

Disclaimer: I view rifle barrels no different than rear tires on a dragster. They are consumable and meant to get item from point A to point B as fast as possible

No advancement has ever come from doing what has always been done.

Edited To Add:
The goal is to be able to eventually get the same MVs from much smaller cartridge case with same weight projectile as in the larger cartridge case.
For example:
Being able to get the MV of a 375/BMG from a standard size CT cartridge by being able to utilize a faster burning powder, generating more pressure then that is where I want to get to.
All the testing on this and that to get to that point is just part of it for me.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Milepost]

Projectile aside, how do you plan on compensating for the increased pressure and powder burned in the throat area?

There are stronger tool steel alloys out there such as H13 and 9310 and barrel nitriding would help some but IMO even ceramic coatings in the throat would degrade quickly under the extreme heat stress. IMO - we also need improvements in powder. A cooler burning dual base SLOW burning powder would help here... Of course all this will add a lot of additional cost...

Even so I think the 10X100 is still is a worthwhile endeavor. One always has to push beyond the known boundaries to make any real progress. Some will play follow the leader and others are willing to push the boundaries and think out of the box.

 

[nick338]

Hi,

We can slightly reduce the powder burned in the throat area with being able to utilize a faster burning powder as long as we are not concerned with such restrictive pressure limits. (Enough to matter? Will have to find out)

Pressure is the pressure...I do not think we can effectively do much about that. But friction caused from pressure we can reduce per projectile designs/alloys/etc.

My plan is to test and run the 10x100 at 100k (After testing cartridge case to find its' limit) in a 7 twist, polygonal Chrome moly barrel properly nitrocarburized.

Disclaimer: I view rifle barrels no different than rear tires on a dragster. They are consumable and meant to get item from point A to point B as fast as possible

No advancement has ever come from doing what has always been done.

Edited To Add:
The goal is to be able to eventually get the same MVs from much smaller cartridge case with same weight projectile as in the larger cartridge case.
For example:
Being able to get the MV of a 375/BMG from a standard size CT cartridge by being able to utilize a faster burning, generating more pressure then that is where I want to get to.
All the testing on this and that to get to that point is just part of it for me.

Sincerely,
Theis

I've skipped the entire 375 evolution feeling like it was unnecessary at the ranges I do most of my shooting, but you have definitely peaked my interest in your endeavor. Best of luck.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Any update?

 

[Jeffvn]

Not sure how I missed this thread the first time around. Interesting information. I presume you were using a gauge to determine the actual chamber pressures. How has this progressed?

 

[lash]

I believe that his Hoplite Arms endeavor has slowed progress on this project, though it is still in the works. This is purely my understanding based upon his posts in that thread.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I believe that his Hoplite Arms endeavor has slowed progress on this project, though it is still in the works. This is purely my understanding based upon his posts in that thread.

Link to hoplite arms thread?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Yes, with the Hoplite Arms endeavor the past 6 months has been pretty dedicated to those weapon systems and their cartridges....

Combine that with the new Genesis Ballistic Solutions company that is being formed right now that is combining Hoplite Arms and Patagonia Ballistics......I have been pretty busy.

I will try and get some updates on the 10x100 in the next couple weeks.

Hoplite Arms thread is https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/hoplite-arms.6953294/

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Hi,

Yes, with the Hoplite Arms endeavor the past 6 months has been pretty dedicated to those weapon systems and their cartridges....

Combine that with the new Genesis Ballistic Solutions company that is being formed right now that is combining Hoplite Arms and Patagonia Ballistics......I have been pretty busy.

I will try and get some updates on the 10x100 in the next couple weeks.

Hoplite Arms thread is https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/hoplite-arms.6953294/

Sincerely,
Theis

Nice.
Not to go off topic, but do you know of any updates on the NGSW? Last I remember, you said the Textron case was likely to be chosen vs SIG's?

 

[badassgunworks]

Theis my question is this 2 piece case going to be available to the public reason why I ask is most simply think oh I can just neck down a standard bmg case to 408 and end up with the same results in short no you can't. Too much capacity cause you cant run the pressures to overcome the ignition issues due to the lack of case fill . The bmg case wont handle it. Next question I also hear that the 3500 fps velocity is still theoretical and has not been proven yet I hope this works you know my push for performance we should be very close to the same results with the 408 colossus . Looking forward to out bright future in exploiting this endeavor

 

[jasent]

There are stronger tool steel alloys out there such as H13 and 9310 and barrel nitriding would help some but IMO even ceramic coatings in the throat would degrade quickly under the extreme heat stress. IMO - we also need improvements in powder. A cooler burning dual base SLOW burning powder would help here... Of course all this will add a lot of additional cost...

Even so I think the 10X100 is still is a worthwhile endeavor. One always has to push beyond the known boundaries to make any real progress. Some will play follow the leader and others are willing to push the boundaries and think out of the box.

I still feel H13 would make a great barrel

 

[Matthew488]

I still feel H13 would make a great barrel

I wonder if any of the barrel manufacturers would be willing to make some barrels out of H13 tool steel?

 

[_Windrider_]

Hi,

Yes, with the Hoplite Arms endeavor the past 6 months has been pretty dedicated to those weapon systems and their cartridges....

Combine that with the new Genesis Ballistic Solutions company that is being formed right now that is combining Hoplite Arms and Patagonia Ballistics......I have been pretty busy.

I will try and get some updates on the 10x100 in the next couple weeks.

Hoplite Arms thread is https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/hoplite-arms.6953294/

Sincerely,
Theis

Check your PM’s

 

[jasent]

I wonder if any of the barrel manufacturers would be willing to make some barrels out of H13 tool steel?

I’m sure it would be hard on tooling. I’ve never machined it but I have forged tools from it. Makes very good hot work tooling (punches, drifts, ect.) at red to orange heat it hardly moves under the hammer! Even in annealed state it’s harder to cut than chrome molly steels

 

[Geno C.]

Bore coating is where it’s at?

 

[Yerman]

Is this the round? Are those primers pierced?

 

[badassgunworks]

Is this the round? Are those primers pierced?

View attachment 7288703

No not pierced

 

[hohlspitz]

Enlarged section of the above image:

 

[badassgunworks]

Personally I could care less about the 10 X100 cartridge there is a reason why you don't hear much about it I would guess because it's a failure. We have already surpassed the performance level of the 10 x 100 with the 408 Colossus in a smaller package. What I do find it interesting though is going back and reading comments from " Theis " it's amazing how full of s*** this guy actually was and that anyone could ever believe anything that came out of his mouth. I say good riddance to bad rubbish

 

[brianf]

10 x 100 was primarily moving forward from BWA with materials.

we had the rights for first use and development aid

at the time BWA was working on bimetal cases and a alike

it was going to be a higher pressure cartridge so it fit the hoplite design criteria

BWA needed hoplite as much as hoplite needed BWA, because no other "portable" action would safely handle the pressure

BWA was also working on different mono/solid designs as the original infinity tip was good but not great for transonic transition

if we actually moved forward it would have been a serious cartridge with bimetal cases and increased chamber pressure combined

currently im not sure where BWA is with the project

 

[coldboreAU]

BWA needed hoplite as much as hoplite needed BWA, because no other "portable" action would safely handle the pressure

So what kind of pressure are we talking about??? 70-80000 psi or less?

 

[brianf]

So what kind of pressure are we talking about??? 70-80000 psi or less?

Target was approx 90k

In our opinion and some of the design/requirements from other parties involved, we believed 85+ was the limit of comfort when used in a contested environment.

Although it was spoken about as a ELR cartridge the beginnings were more “agency” focused.

There comes a limit of blast, recoil, and weight. Think of it as a triangle with a dot in the center. The more you move to one side etc.

 

[coldboreAU]

Target was approx 90k

In our opinion and some of the design/requirements from other parties involved, we believed 85+ was the limit of comfort when used in a contested environment.

Although it was spoken about as a ELR cartridge the beginnings were more “agency” focused.

There comes a limit of blast, recoil, and weight. Think of it as a triangle with a dot in the center. The more you move to one side etc.

I don't completely disagree.
I even agree on your triangel example and yes "Agency" stuff and elr shooting is not quite the same. The point where I may disagree is this part of your previous post.

BWA needed hoplite as much as hoplite needed BWA, because no other "portable" action would safely handle the pressure

I'm not trying to be an asshole and that's why i'm first asking what action you're talking about exactly?
Because i think/know there are several actions that can handle 85-90000 psi and there are 1 piece cases (no steel head) that also withstand this pressure.

 

[coldboreAU]

This is the best image I have found of BWA ammo. Looks cool but I can't find load data.

 

[brianf]

I don't completely disagree.
I even agree on your triangel example and yes "Agency" stuff and elr shooting is not quite the same. The point where I may disagree is this part of your previous post.



I'm not trying to be an asshole and that's why i'm first asking what action you're talking about exactly?
Because i think/know there are several actions that can handle 85-90000 psi and there are 1 piece cases (no steel head) that also withstand this pressure.

As I’m not privy to all other actions testing I do know the design that was going to be used was able to run the target pressure plus proof, plus a specific safety margin.

Just because a action can run 90 doesn’t mean it won’t grenade at 130k.

That’s testing and pentameters which were design criteria.

There were also price considerations with the case material and construction. It’s very easy to use more expensive alloys for increased cartridge strength. The actual cost of the revised case materials and design were actually cheaper than single piece cases.

I’m addition there were mfg location requirements moving forward.

 

[badassgunworks]

As I’m not privy to all other actions testing I do know the design that was going to be used was able to run the target pressure plus proof, plus a specific safety margin.

Just because a action can run 90 doesn’t mean it won’t grenade at 130k.

That’s testing and pentameters which were design criteria.

There were also price considerations with the case material and construction. It’s very easy to use more expensive alloys for increased cartridge strength. The actual cost of the revised case materials and design were actually cheaper than single piece cases.

I’m addition there were mfg location requirements moving forward.

135 000 proof is not that difficult even a standard remingon 700 will handle 125,000 psi proof and that was proven at the remington factory with Roy weatherby on a head to head test . The mark 5 failed the test. The 700 passes

 

[brianf]

135 000 proof is not that difficult even a standard remingon 700 will handle 125,000 psi proof and that was proven at the remington factory with Roy weatherby on a head to head test . The mark 5 failed the test. The 700 passes

A 700 can’t handle 135 with that bolt face diameter

Reputable smiths will not build a 338lm at sammi spec pressure on a 700 never mind a larger bolt face at higher pressures.

I would think you already know both of those tidbits

Additionally the proof is the easy part the safety margin criteria is where the pressures and strain become a issue.

 

[camotoe]

What s the back story on theis getting ban. I missed this

 

[badassgunworks]

What s the back story on theis getting ban. I missed this

Its not worth repeating go look to hoplite post and read it .