Can a tuner improve these sub MOA groups?

[VFL1911]

Is a lot tested group like this as good as it gets or would throwing on a tuner tighten it up even more? Been debating testing a Harrels on this, but not sure if it’s worth the time and money or just to continue to extensively lot test until I get these results.

5 shot group at 50 yards grouping .257 and 10 shot group at 100 yards grouping .635

CZ 457 with 21 inch lilja in MDT ACC Premier Gen 2.

Primarily shoot NRL/PRS. Wasn’t sure if the tuner would primarily address tightening up more of those “pretty good” lots but be marginal (if at all) on improving lots like this.

 

[VFL1911]

PS - forgot to mention these were with Lapua Long Range

 

[oldrifleman]

Not sure you would see much improvement on the top and maybe a bit on the bottom, combined not sure it would do much. Tuners generally work to reduce the vertical stringing, not so much to reduce the horizontal spread. Question do you plan to shoot at beyond 100yrds? If not I am not sure LR is the right choice. It and its brother SLR come into their own at 100 and beyond. At 50 or 100 I would try centerX.

 

[jetjock07]

The accuracy shown is good enough for PRS/NRL. If you want to tighten them up some more then I would say yes to a tuner. Have you tried accuracy out at 200 or 300 yet? Is your barrel a straight or a tapered barrel??

I have a 20in 1.2” straight on my rimx and decided to throw a tuner on and the groups shrunk some. But then again a a short straight barrel isn’t going to have the same effect of a tuner as a thinner barrel or tapered.

 

[VFL1911]

Not sure you would see much improvement on the top and maybe a bit on the bottom, combined not sure it would do much. Tuners generally work to reduce the vertical stringing, not so much to reduce the horizontal spread. Question do you plan to shoot at beyond 100yrds? If not I am not sure LR is the right choice. It and its brother SLR come into their own at 100 and beyond. At 50 or 100 I would try centerX.

Thanks for the feedback. And Yes I shoot NRL & PRS matches, so out to 300 isn’t out of the ordinary on a monthly basis.

 

[VFL1911]

The accuracy shown is good enough for PRS/NRL. If you want to tighten them up some more then I would say yes to a tuner. Have you tried accuracy out at 200 or 300 yet? Is your barrel a straight or a tapered barrel??

I have a 20in 1.2” straight on my rimx and decided to throw a tuner on and the groups shrunk some. But then again a a short straight barrel isn’t going to have the same effect of a tuner as a thinner barrel or tapered.

It’s a straight contour

 

[oldrifleman]

Thanks for the feedback. And Yes I shoot NRL & PRS matches, so out to 300 isn’t out of the ordinary on a monthly basis.

Then it would depend on what you see at 100. If you see any real vertical as a pattern I would definitely go for it.

 

[Csafisher]

Dang look at all the barrel harmonics…… oh wait. Turn that tooner though

 

[mark5pt56]

If my rifle was shooting that well without one, I wouldn't waste resources and time. To see actual improvement, you would need multiple range sessions under ideal conditions to get enough data to say otherwise.
My .02

 

[LR1845]

I have a DI precision Vudoo with a 1.25" 13T Muller works barrel with a tuner on it...I had Tom install the tuner for looks....it serves no other purpose. I have turned it to the max adjustment both ways 1 full rev at a time and shot 5 shot groups with each rev and it did not change anything, not group size, or POI. I am no scientist but I doubt a 22 creates enough harmonics or barrel movement with a 1.20-1.25" barrel for a tuner to much, if anything.

Like @mark5pt56 said that rifle shoots damn good I'd leave it alone, more often than not you start messing with a good thing and it just makes things worse.

 

[bobby1028]

Bench rest yes, any gains are beneficial. PRS no, if you can hold anywhere close to that off props and beat the clock you're a winner...

 

[flatland1]

I have a DI precision Vudoo with a 1.25" 13T Muller works barrel with a tuner on it...I had Tom install the tuner for looks....it serves no other purpose. I have turned it to the max adjustment both ways 1 full rev at a time and shot 5 shot groups with each rev and it did not change anything, not group size, or POI. I am no scientist but I doubt a 22 creates enough harmonics or barrel movement with a 1.20-1.25" barrel for a tuner to much, if anything.

Like @mark5pt56 said that rifle shoots damn good I'd leave it alone, more often than not you start messing with a good thing and it just makes things worse.

When you said you'd tried the tuner by going 'one full revolution at a time', it pointed out the distinct possibility that you'd skipped over a point where the tuner might've had a positive effect on group size. None of the four barrels I have tuners on are as large as your 1.25" bbl - they're either sendero contour, or Shilen R5 or R0. Sendero bbls are on Vudoo repeaters (early Gen 1 & Three-60), Shilens are on V22S single shots. I've done a lot of shooting with all four rifles to get their tuners set, and there's absolutely no question in my experience that the tuners (two Harrels & two Pro-X) make a difference, but you've got to try finer adjustments to find the sweet spot.

 

[Defender32]

A straight taper barrel will indeed "tune" for group size. You check every line on a tuner with 2-3 shots on 1 target for each number. You will burn a good amount of ammo doing so.

O.P. with a barrel shooting as good as yours is if the ES & SD are also as good. Check the groups at 200Y. if it is way open it is a possibility tuning at a closer distance to settle the shot to shot dispersion WILL shrink your longer yardage groups.


Here is a picture of my tuner test target and how I run it. All of these shots are a 1.2" barrel at 25" long and a Gen1 EC Tuner. This is SK Standard+. Just a case I had at the house to see what the rifle would do with it for club matches.

 

[oldrifleman]

Rimfire Tuners work, the BR community has proven it many times, they are also not the miracle fix for all thing and barrel geometry plays a part. Long thinner barrels show the most promise with a tuner as the harmonic effects are more dramatic. Short thick barrels show less dramatic results as they naturally damp the harmonic effects better. Are they appropriate in all shooting sports, probably not. To me the 50 yrs results shown are not that spectacular, but also not horrible ( I come from a BR background). The length issue is real in the PRS world and would have to considered. Try one and see if it works for you.

 

[Csafisher]

A straight taper barrel will indeed "tune" for group size. You check every line on a tuner with 2-3 shots on 1 target for each number. You will burn a good amount of ammo doing so.

O.P. with a barrel shooting as good as yours is if the ES & SD are also as good. Check the groups at 200Y. if it is way open it is a possibility tuning at a closer distance to settle the shot to shot dispersion WILL shrink your longer yardage groups.


Here is a picture of my tuner test target and how I run it. All of these shots are a 1.2" barrel at 25" long and a Gen1 EC Tuner. This is SK Standard+. Just a case I had at the house to see what the rifle would do with it for club matches.

View attachment 8516980

How can you tell which setting is best using 3 shot groups? I get that a bad group won’t get any better but a good group has a likelihood of “lying” to you. 3 shot groups have around a +/- 60% change is size from group to group.

 

[Defender32]

I have been doing this for 4 years this way. You will typically have 3-4 groups that stand out of the tested settings @ test distance. (50, 75 or 100) At this time w/ 4 rifles and helping countless other shooters at my club I have probably tested 25-30 lots of ammo in that time frame. If it is Lapua tested ammo I still do the same test to see what I can squeak out of it. 99% of the time you can still get a better group than tested once the rifle is tuned.


Once you have the tuner numbers to see what appeared to shoot the best. Roll to that number and shoot paper at 50y, 75y, 100y and 200y. Shoot multiple 5 round groups or 10 round groups. the tuner test at this point will not lie to you on what groups the best. Once you have done this for plenty of lots of ammo you know what groups to select and how to shorten your test on wasting ammo.

 

[Csafisher]

Once you have the tuner numbers to see what appeared to shoot the best. Roll to that number and shoot paper at 50y, 75y, 100y and 200y. Shoot multiple 5 round groups or 10 round groups. the tuner test at this point will not lie to you on what groups the best.

I’ve gone to the bottom of the rabbit hole a couple times with 22s. Every time I find a good tuner group it turns out no better than non tuned. Even 10 shot groups can very 30% or more. Every test I’ve done the results are all within a normal variance of group sizes.

 

[oldrifleman]

I have had Harrels on a few Anschutz rifles in the past. Were they perfect, did they improve my scores, yeah, some. To me a setting is only effective for a given lot of ammo and really only at a given temperature bracket (+/- 10 Deg F). I knew the range of settings that were good for the rifle and I re-calibrated the rifle before each match. When I quit being so serious about my BR scores (Beyond Anal retentive) I pulled the tuners off and just picked the best ammo I could afford and enjoyed the rifles for what they were. Did I consider putting one on my latest rimfire obsession, yes but I did not have the muzzle threaded and at 1.05" it was too thick to fit a Harrels tuner. Am I sad about that, maybe for a day, but I am very happy with it's capability with a naked barrel.

 

[LR1845]

When you said you'd tried the tuner by going 'one full revolution at a time', it pointed out the distinct possibility that you'd skipped over a point where the tuner might've had a positive effect on group size. None of the four barrels I have tuners on are as large as your 1.25" bbl - they're either sendero contour, or Shilen R5 or R0. Sendero bbls are on Vudoo repeaters (early Gen 1 & Three-60), Shilens are on V22S single shots. I've done a lot of shooting with all four rifles to get their tuners set, and there's absolutely no question in my experience that the tuners (two Harrels & two Pro-X) make a difference, but you've got to try finer adjustments to find the sweet spot.

I am not saying tuners do not work...I shot tuners on center fire rifles for several years so I do know how they work and how to adjust them...when you turn a tuner a full revolution it should at least change the POI especially if your turning it several revolutions in or out.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I would spend the money on ammo and practice more in as many conditions as you can.

 

[MarkCZ]

Is a lot tested group like this as good as it gets or would throwing on a tuner tighten it up even more? Been debating testing a Harrels on this, but not sure if it’s worth the time and money or just to continue to extensively lot test until I get these results.

5 shot group at 50 yards grouping .257 and 10 shot group at 100 yards grouping .635

CZ 457 with 21 inch lilja in MDT ACC Premier Gen 2.

Primarily shoot NRL/PRS. Wasn’t sure if the tuner would primarily address tightening up more of those “pretty good” lots but be marginal (if at all) on improving lots like this.

You have vertical in your 100yd group. A tuner will take some of that out. You will be shooting longer ranges, what is your vertical at 200yds.

 

[MarkCZ]

I have a DI precision Vudoo with a 1.25" 13T Muller works barrel with a tuner on it...I had Tom install the tuner for looks....it serves no other purpose. I have turned it to the max adjustment both ways 1 full rev at a time and shot 5 shot groups with each rev and it did not change anything, not group size, or POI. I am no scientist but I doubt a 22 creates enough harmonics or barrel movement with a 1.20-1.25" barrel for a tuner to much, if anything.

Like @mark5pt56 said that rifle shoots damn good I'd leave it alone, more often than not you start messing with a good thing and it just makes things worse.

The max you should turn a tuner is 1/4 turn at a time. A full turn will tell you nothing.

 

[LR1845]

The max you should turn a tuner is 1/4 turn at a time. A full turn will tell you nothing.

So a full turn....Or several full turns will not change the POI? Is that what your saying? Because if it is your wrong!

 

[mark5pt56]

I would spend the money on ammo and practice more in as many conditions as you can.

This, get to know the rifle, minute oddities, wind, trends with the rifle as you shoot, ccb, cb, etc.

 

[oldrifleman]

The max you should turn a tuner is 1/4 turn at a time. A full turn will tell you nothing.

No you turn it it one notch at a time. A node can be one or two notches wide. You need to just go through the process. There are math equations that can give you “starting” length of the barrel ( barrel plus tuner). But you test at each mark and record it along with conditions and lot. I find it fun, any time pulling the trigger is fun, but unless you fin and record the nodes you are actually just wasting time.

 

[jetjock07]

So a full turn....Or several full turns will not change the POI? Is that what your saying? Because if it is your wrong!

Of course it will change POI, but the purpose is to find the best grouping with the same POI. A full turn will not show that. With my 22 I only change 2 notches at a time. 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, etc…. Then I find best groups with same POI and test those numbers.