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PRS Talk Can we talk about the AG Cup?
- Thread starter Cjwise5
- Start date
At a $1k entry fee and if I saw it right, the most stages won by an individual was 4 ($4k), except for Vibbert, it wasn’t a payday at all.
I think they have something to work with in the future as long as they stay within the realms of reality and take baby steps. Will be interesting to see what announcements are in store for next year.
Unless you’re Matt B. Then it’s called a solid investment.
A month or two ago, I’d definitely be on that train.
But I think @JC Steel has ascended to this level now as well.
The thing about that is Jake shoots WAY more. And yes, has been crushing it. He practices a lot and it shows. But Matt, having not practiced once or shot a match in months, could come out and top 3 or win without a doubt.
Yup. I literally heard someone ask "did his gun go down" when he got 2nd at the Best in Texas lol.
I hope Scouten makes something entertaining to watch. The live streams and photos of guys shooting off a fence, a rock, poles, was painful.
Based on the conversation I had with John at the match, and some of the camera angles they got during stage runs, I think they can make something interesting out of it for TV.
Long Range Precision shooting on TV is nothing new. Shooting USA on the Outdoor Channel has had one or more programs devoted to Long Range Precision shooting every year since 2014. They have featured the Bushnell Brawl and the GAP Pro-Am routinely. This will be just one more episode devoted to Long Range Precision shooting. Doubtful it will move the needle any more than any of their previous Long Range Precision episodes.
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Pretty sure most of these guys are sponsored
and the sponsors were happy to pay their entry fees.
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Pretty sure most of these guys are sponsored
I think you vastly overestimate PRS sponsorships.
Even if their entry fee was paid, there is still travel, lodging(to and from), time away from work, etc, etc. Sponsors ain’t picking up but so much of that, if any.
Point being, when the second highest is $4k, it’s not a “payday” for anyone except first (that’s perfectly fine).
People tend to see “big” numbers that aren’t so big once you roll out expenses at things like this.
The whole sponsorship perception really drives me nuts. I've got some pretty generous sponsorships, and I still come *way* out of pocket to shoot PRS matches every year. The number of people in the PRS that *might* break even at the end of a typical year are in the low single digits, and even then breaking even isn't guaranteed for them.
As it should be, as it's just a hobby.
An extremely expensive hobby.... Like offroading lol ?
Didn't say sponsors were picking up additional costs. I stand by my statement that entry fees were covered by sponsors for most of the shooters.
Also never said or implied that shooters were getting a "payday". Agree that the number of shooters that break even over the course of a year is small.
I know of two shooters that had their spot paid for by their employer. A couple more I suspect had it paid by an employer, they wrote it off as business expense, or they had a sponsor pay. A few of them I can all but guarantee paid out of pocket.
You might be surprised at how many people that are not into the actual sport of LR precision rifle shooting are actually spending good money to put together high end hunting rigs. Of all types. Heavy varmint (p-dog) style, md-weight long range hunting rifles, light weight and ultra light weight packing/carrying rifles, you name it. Just locally by me, there are a few gunsmiths building rifles for people that use all high end stuff derived from this very sport.
In that sense, to continue the tired analogy, this sport is very much like nascar. In that people see and hear about high end gear and want it for themselves, even if they are not “in” the sport itself. The variety and availability of products keeps improving, driven by the needs and demands of competition, but transfers into everyday use by those that want more than a Walmart rifle. Improvements in everything from bullets, powder, cases to stocks, actions, triggers, barrels to support gear like binoculars, scopes, bipod, tripods etc. almost all translate to the hunting crowd in one way or another.
If people are not seeing this, then they are too immersed in the matches and are missing the forest for the trees.
And don’t even get me started about how many improvements driven by competition have been incorporated back into military small arms. That is never more true than today.
Nothing and will never be anything like nascar. Not even close. While PRS developments crossover, it’s still an insanely niche crossover.
And you made my point. The guys spending big money on hunting stuff are “in the loop.” Not the PRS Loop. The loop of willing to spend $1700 for an action and will find their way to say an impact ti without some show on shooting USA.
So answer me this. How do you suppose the guys that want this nice gear get “in the loop” as you call it? By osmosis from existing in the same dimension as the rest of us?
It’s true enough that some know about the sport through knowing someone personally, but many more are seeing u-tube vids and watching outdoor TV and see this gear being used. That’s how things work. That was why I used the analogy. Not to imply or argue about how big this sport is or ever will be. And had you read my statement in context you would have understood that.
Media coverage can be a good thing. Will it grow the sport? Likely actually, but it will definitely help spread the knowledge of what can be done with the right gear. Most people don’t practice much and want to make up for that lack by buying gear they feel will take its place.
Gonna change topic for a sec.
Question:
When taking casual viewers (non PRS types) into consideration, does the AG cup aim to:
A: paint a picture that these shooters are the best of the best and it not realistic to think you can just go start shooting matches tomorrow
or
B: this can be an everyman game. Take that rifle you got in the closet and get out there
Question:
When taking casual viewers (non PRS types) into consideration, does the AG cup aim to:
A: paint a picture that these shooters are the best of the best and it not realistic to think you can just go start shooting matches tomorrow
or
B: this can be an everyman game. Take that rifle you got in the closet and get out there
Let's be honest here. Most people if not the vast majority, who are going to watch the AG Cup on Shooting USA are already in this sport. This will do very little to bring new shooters into the sport.
What it will do, is help the upper tier shooters showcase talent and open the door for new sponsorhips for the series, matches and possibly individual shooters. It will essentially add another tier of competition.
What it will do, is help the upper tier shooters showcase talent and open the door for new sponsorhips for the series, matches and possibly individual shooters. It will essentially add another tier of competition.
If everyone who‘s gonna watch is already involved, then why would a company spend money to advertise to the community that’s pretty damn small?
When the RO Brawl was on shooting USA, I got many, many more calls and texts from people I know who are hunters or trap shooters who were just watching the channel while sitting on the couch after work.
@CV_Ag Thanks for putting on the match
@Hollywood 6mm Thanks for helping
I am glad you guys are trying stuff and pushing this forward. I have thought for a while the idea of cash matches is good for the big boys. I hope it works out. Glad the west coast guys represented. I was happy to see Ben got a spot, he is a good cookie. Lots of talented shooters. I will definitely watch the final production if I can get it.
@Hollywood 6mm Thanks for helping
I am glad you guys are trying stuff and pushing this forward. I have thought for a while the idea of cash matches is good for the big boys. I hope it works out. Glad the west coast guys represented. I was happy to see Ben got a spot, he is a good cookie. Lots of talented shooters. I will definitely watch the final production if I can get it.
That's great but are those hunters and trap shooters going to get into the sport? Are they going to go spend that extra money on the sport? Are they going to skip out on that guided elk hunt in September/October so they can afford a rifle in April?
I really hope I'm wrong. I really do. I hope the show explodes and there's a metric shit ton of new shooters because of the AG Cup and the associated coverage. But lets not forget. There was already a long range shooting show that covered matches and a series out west. If I'm not mistaken it didn't last more than a couple of seasons.
An additional tier of matches (local/regional, national and cash/AG Cup) may not be a bad thing. It may give somebody something to strive for. But again, lets be realistic about this.
I really hope I'm wrong. I really do. I hope the show explodes and there's a metric shit ton of new shooters because of the AG Cup and the associated coverage. But lets not forget. There was already a long range shooting show that covered matches and a series out west. If I'm not mistaken it didn't last more than a couple of seasons.
An additional tier of matches (local/regional, national and cash/AG Cup) may not be a bad thing. It may give somebody something to strive for. But again, lets be realistic about this.
I agree with it not exploding.
I’m trying to get a feel for what AG Cup (sponsors, Md’s, anyone involved in it) are aiming for here.
Depending on how the footage is edited, it could portray things on one extreme or the other.
I think think that is part of the discussion. What is the aim? Is it to grow the sport by bringing in new shooters? Is it to grow the sport by adding more competitive outlet for some of the more experienced shooters? Is it to attract a wider array of sponsors? (Think realtree sponsorship of mammoth).
Edit: I shoot in an area that has seen a pretty substantial amount of growth in the sport in the last year to 18 months. We were essentially an untapped market. When I started shooting competitively after the 2015 SH cup, there was nothing local. The closest match was the SDSC in South Dakota. A local shooter saw an opportunity, started a club match and within a year was hosting a two day PRS match. Now we have shooters from several states around us competing in our local matches on a regular basis.
Does the AG Cup/Shooting USA intend to do the same thing on a broader scale?
Edit: I shoot in an area that has seen a pretty substantial amount of growth in the sport in the last year to 18 months. We were essentially an untapped market. When I started shooting competitively after the 2015 SH cup, there was nothing local. The closest match was the SDSC in South Dakota. A local shooter saw an opportunity, started a club match and within a year was hosting a two day PRS match. Now we have shooters from several states around us competing in our local matches on a regular basis.
Does the AG Cup/Shooting USA intend to do the same thing on a broader scale?
With the thousands of hunters in the US. I wonder why no Hunter division for the PRS. Does the NRL have some thing along those lines?
1 round per target and like 4 or 5 animal targets per stage. I am sure any hunter wouldn't doing that. The only issue I could see is the bigger magnums with the hunting bullets
destroying the steel. But could be very wrong to think that.
1 round per target and like 4 or 5 animal targets per stage. I am sure any hunter wouldn't doing that. The only issue I could see is the bigger magnums with the hunting bullets
destroying the steel. But could be very wrong to think that.
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I never ran a match before, but we already have coyote stages and animal targets at normal matches.
Why not have a guy tell the RO he is in the hunter class and he only shoots the 4 or 5 animal targets on each stage. While the target class runs the stage of 10 targets and it's a combo of the animal and circle or square targets. All on the same stage or lane.
Is that too far out of the question or would it be better off being it's own match just for hunters.
Why not have a guy tell the RO he is in the hunter class and he only shoots the 4 or 5 animal targets on each stage. While the target class runs the stage of 10 targets and it's a combo of the animal and circle or square targets. All on the same stage or lane.
Is that too far out of the question or would it be better off being it's own match just for hunters.
End goal of any business is to survive and make money. And there’s plenty of people that buy tactical rifles that aren’t snipers or competitors, “national match” rifles that don’t shoot high power, Glocks that aren’t LE/Mil, 500 S&W pistols that will never see a bear outside of a zoo, or 50 BMGs that will never shoot at a terrorist driving at them with a car bomb. Shooters winning matches lends credibility to the company, which sells rifles to the weekend warriors and competitors alike. Don’t have an actual shooter behind your product, you can buy your way to the “Official Product X of the PRS”. To the vast majority of non-competitors, it’s the same as saying your rifle won the whole series.
The problem is that once you see the “man behind the curtain” and realize that yes, there are businesses trying to make money, and yes there are politics, many people get jaded. It’s as if they believe that the companies are only in the sport simply because they love it (and I’m sure many do), but at the end of the day the companies are chasing new sales, while maintaining relationships with their roots and credibility in the market that is bringing them success.
So why is AG doing this? Same as every other business. More clients, more sales, more revenue. Maintain a strong position in the current markets, and open doors to new ones. Business 101.
The problem is that once you see the “man behind the curtain” and realize that yes, there are businesses trying to make money, and yes there are politics, many people get jaded. It’s as if they believe that the companies are only in the sport simply because they love it (and I’m sure many do), but at the end of the day the companies are chasing new sales, while maintaining relationships with their roots and credibility in the market that is bringing them success.
So why is AG doing this? Same as every other business. More clients, more sales, more revenue. Maintain a strong position in the current markets, and open doors to new ones. Business 101.
Now you're dictating what an MD can do with their course of fire, which the PRS has gone out of their way to avoid as much as possible. The only real rules they have are that you have to have a skills stage, all hits are worth 1 point, and the CoF must meet a minimum round count (160 I think) for a 2-day match.
You must have a different breed of hunters in your area. Around here a match would have to require no more than 3 rounds of Remington Core-Lokt for a whole match season (or similar cheapest ammo on the shelf at Wal-Mart) plus 2 rounds for sight in, in a caliber no smaller than 7mm (magnum preferably) and be shot inside of 200 yards with full size deer targets. All hits count. Unlimited time.
Anything more and you've alienated almost every hunter I've ever met.
I see the other side of it, but there just must be a way to include hunters and new shooters in order to grow our community as a whole.
I guess, I am reaching for the stars on this one. 200 yards and minute of deer is standard for the vast majority.
All in all, there has to be something to bring in the next wave of competitors, in order to sustain growth overall.
That's more for the club match level. The AG Cup is being treated as the pinnacle of the match community - something for the newer guys to look forward to.
Haha that it is. But I don't believe that anybody should be subsidizing it.
If you can't afford to shoot, then take up knitting. No one should be paying for you to have fun in your hobby.
I would argue that those people are still few and far between. There are people that l
pay pretty good money for hunting rigs, but for every one of those people there's a thousand people that think a Remington Sendero is a "fancy rifle".
I agree with your estimate, but would forward the point that it probably depends a bit upon where you live. In this area, we’re most definitely seeing an increase in interest from hunters. I’m pretty sure that if one were so bored as to want to search and record how many new higher end semi-custom offerings there are now in the $1000-2500 range. Then companies that are apparently viable businesses, that number would well reflect the increase in interest.
Actual match questions -
How many points total avail? JC @ 165/?
Were targets normal PRS sized, smaller, much smaller?
Distribution of points is pretty interesting, 90% of JC to be top 10 and Preston at 75%.” and a pretty smooth ramp between l. Not quite sure what, if anything, to make of it.
How many points total avail? JC @ 165/?
Were targets normal PRS sized, smaller, much smaller?
Distribution of points is pretty interesting, 90% of JC to be top 10 and Preston at 75%.” and a pretty smooth ramp between l. Not quite sure what, if anything, to make of it.
I was surprised to see him in dead last, even in that company.
Wonder why he left early.
Check out the VP Precision podcast, Jon and Jake do a good recap of the match in episode 15.
Quick answer would be that targets were small/fair, course of fire was very challenging for time/position/engagements with lots of shooters timing out.
Not sure on total round count, my guess would be right around 200. I recall Jon/Jake saying something about dropping around 20 points on day one.
Round count was 205. They posted the course of fire for all stages and I added because I was curious too. A lot of points dropped.
Targets were not crazy small. But A LOT of people timed out. Stages had a lot of movement involved and from what I spoke with Watts about, some of the barricades were pretty unstable.
And yes, Dave Preston had to leave early. There was family concerns and that’s all I want to share about that. But he did not complete the COF.
I personally cant wait to see it. I'm really interested in seeing the techniques and equipment these guys are bringing to the table. Been looking through the photos on FB and noticed some things I didnt think I'd see.
Suppressor usage, "gamer plates", a lot of Harris bipods, no spike feet on most bipods used, tripods as rear support.
Read the forums and you'll find out that Harris is junk, Talons are the only was to go for feet, tripod for rear support is for sissy's, gamer plates are a joke, etc....
But look at what the guys with potentially 20k on the line used. I'm sure someone will say "they only used that because they were sponsored" wtf ever. If any of you think these guys were running a $90 Harris because of a sponsor your smoking crack...they use whatever they feel gives them the best chance of winning.
Read the forums and you'll find out that Harris is junk, Talons are the only was to go for feet, tripod for rear support is for sissy's, gamer plates are a joke, etc....
But look at what the guys with potentially 20k on the line used. I'm sure someone will say "they only used that because they were sponsored" wtf ever. If any of you think these guys were running a $90 Harris because of a sponsor your smoking crack...they use whatever they feel gives them the best chance of winning.
Agreed on all counts, especially that last point. A few extra points for you:
3 out of the 20 were running cans.
I did see quite a few spiked feet bipods, including a few guys using spikes on concrete, etc (probably forgot or too lazy to swap).
Tripods saw a lot of use because the shooters had a collective 5 minutes to watch wind, look at the stage, etc. Not sure about how the other RO handled it, but my stages they could look at the props all they wanted, but couldn't touch them or put gear on them. If they wanted to bring a tripod up and eyeball the height compared to the prop, then more power to them.
That said, I also saw a lot of tripod use (especially on stage 1) where the tripod turned into a liability due to time, and some stages caused the tripod rear support shooters to struggle with tripod placement. That said, a couple of stages clearly made tripod rear support a winner - the log and bench troop line stage was one of them, but I'd say you still could have cleaned it without it.
Harris bipods just WORK, but they do need a little modernization. Mine is pretty heavily upgraded, as were most of the ones at the Cup.
I didn't bring my match rifle to play with on the props, but I have shot off of most of them before. I will say most of the time, I don't think the gamer plates would have made that much (if any) difference.
That's the kinda insight I'm looking forward to. Hopefully the show will be done right and we will see some of the strategy these guys are trying to use to win the $$$
