Carbon ring removal

[Spring1A]

Youre not going to get a real answer to that question as there isnt really one because who really knows. Its just going to be a yes all of the above answer.



Bore snakes dont do anything. Clean the carbon out and the copper if need be.

Just clean it every few hundred instead of every many hundred and the issues dont pop up.

Got it, thanks! Korea era Marine grandfather was my firearm instructor, his thought of cleaning that rifle, pistol or shot gun after every field outting weather you shot it or not was drilled into my head.
sorry to get off topic on this carbon ring thread.

 

[spife7980]

With old crappy carbon steel in the jungles sweating on it constantly and blasting away with crappy corrosive ammo.... sure. These days for leisure just dont let it get too mucky.

 

[Ledzep]

I typically don't worry about copper. Whatever comes out when I clean for carbon comes out. Especially later in the barrel's life.

Obviously if a hard deposit of copper shows up I'll address it but I've only ever had that in pitted and/or factory barrels. Carbon seems to cause more immediate issues.

 

[BallisticPrimate]

tag

 

[JLP.Payette]

So to elaborate, my question is would pulling a bore snake after each range session, then taking the copper out every 200 rounds or so be a good enough routine, or do you guys take the copper out after every range session, regardless of haw many round you shot?

I clean carbon only after every 100-200 rounds.

 

[Scampo]

I clean carbon after every range session regardless of the number of rounds shot. I clean copper every 200-300 rounds.

 

[BuLLet]

I typically clean after each shooting session. Just do it with the right tools and chemicals. Bore guide, good rod (Dewey), proper jags and patches. Nothing outrageous and you're not going to harm the barrel through cleaning. Some times I'll do it after 2 sessions as time is short. No reason not to clean if done properly.

 

[Frank Green]

So to elaborate, my question is would pulling a bore snake after each range session, then taking the copper out every 200 rounds or so be a good enough routine, or do you guys take the copper out after every range session, regardless of haw many round you shot?

I don't like bore snakes. Leave it in your cleaning kit and to be used for emergency cleaning in the field. My one problem with the bore snake is onces it's dirty...how do you clean the bore snake properly? So you end up pulling a dirty bore snake down the bore of the barrel. So that's why I say for emergency use only.

Do yourself a favor...buy a good one piece cleaning rod and use a good bore/cleaning rod guide.

Those small carbon particles can scratch the bore also. Think of where diamonds come from. Those carbon particles are very hard.

After shooting I clean my barrels completely clean per say. No copper left in them at all. Yes there is always some carbon build up in the bore. If you really want to get the barrel clean down to bare metal....your going to work at it.

Depending on the caliber....I'll use the JB bore compound about every 200-300 rounds fired especially when that throat area of the barrel starts to get rougher.

 

[salks]

Two 20 minute soaks with clr on felt pellets removes the carbon rings out of my 6.5 cm's. After that I flush the chamber with bore blaster then oiled patches in the chamber and bore.

Yea thats kinda the way I used clr for a carbon ring. Had one of those big q tips made it kinda fit the chamber, dipped in clr, let it sit 15 mins. Did a regular clean after. Presto. A little goes a long way. It is important to have the clr in the grey bottle, they make other kinds but they do not work as well.

 

[JGR1953]

I don't like an abrasive cleaner. I'll only use Rem. 40x cleaner or JB Borecompound not the Borebrite.

If you use an abrasive cleaner and a brush....guaranteed bore damage! The picture below is from a shooter using an abrasive cleaner and used it with a brush. 7mm barrel. Should measure .277" x .284" and it now measures .279" x .2845". Only 800 rounds fired on it chambered in 284win. At 100 rounds he started having accuracy issues. You use an abrasive with a brush....guaranteed bore damage.

I also don't recommend chucking up a old cleaning rod in a drill! Seen that procedure wreck plenty of barrels as well!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

View attachment 7543585

I found this on another forum.....Sako TRG42 and Tikka T3x Tact
Maybe it's a thing... I've never seen anything like it before.
It looks like someone took a can of bore paste and threw sand in it then went to town with a super coarse stainless brush.


This is his quote

 

[MakeSawdust]

I had read warnings of people using abrasives with brushes. I use a patch on a jag. The directions with the thoroclean say to use a brush. I am damn glad I decided against that after seeing all of the borescope photos. When I use abrasives, I only use it to remove the carbon ring in front of the chamber. I shoot 6mm and 22 cal cartridges and clean around every 200-300 rounds. At that number of rounds I have tried soaking and nylon brushes and haven't been able to remove the carbon ring without abrasives. Maybe I need to start using bronze brushes instead.

I would be very interested in Frank Green's method of cleaning for maximum life of top accuracy. I have experimented with a few methods and have discovered that some of the barrels I thought were trashed really just had bad carbon rings and very little fire cracking after I bought a borescope. One was a factory Savage 243 barrel that I was running varget and 70 grain bt in. I was cleaning with foaming bore cleaner to clean patches every 50-60 rds. I checked it with a borescope and the carbon ring looks like a mountain. At the time I pulled it there were around 1200 rds through it. It had opened up from 3/8" to 1"+ at 100 yards. At that time I didn't even know there was a such thing as a carbon ring.

I would be very interested to learn how Frank does things. He deals with this stuff on a daily basis and helps customers troubleshoot as well as having extensive personal experience shooting his own stuff. My guess is, he has a sample size of experience that is exponentially higher than I will have in a lifetime.

 

[QRE23]

I found this on another forum.....
Maybe it's a thing... I've never seen anything like it before.
It looks like someone took a can of bore paste and threw sand in it then went to town with a super coarse stainless brush.


This is his quote
View attachment 7548269
View attachment 7548270
View attachment 7548271
View attachment 7548283
View attachment 7548395

I have a HK P7M8 they have fluted chambers in them and the brass comes out with these funny looking stripes all the way around it.

 

[JGR1953]

I have a HK P7M8 they have fluted chambers in them and the brass comes out with these funny looking stripes all the way around it.

I've seen the HK fluted chambers and understand how they work and effect brass.
If you look at the first picture you'll see that these grooves don't even make contact with the brass.
They start at the leade and go forward and get into the lands and grooves then stop.
I've just never seen it before and was wanting one of the barrel makers to explain if this was something
that's done to improve function or a total cleaning fubar.....

 

[Frank Green]

I found this on another forum.....
Maybe it's a thing... I've never seen anything like it before.
It looks like someone took a can of bore paste and threw sand in it then went to town with a super coarse stainless brush.


This is his quote
View attachment 7548269
View attachment 7548270
View attachment 7548271
View attachment 7548283
View attachment 7548395

Yep that's what can happen!

Using a brush in conjunction with an abrasive cleaner....is the cause of things like this.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

I had read warnings of people using abrasives with brushes. I use a patch on a jag. The directions with the thoroclean say to use a brush. I am damn glad I decided against that after seeing all of the borescope photos. When I use abrasives, I only use it to remove the carbon ring in front of the chamber. I shoot 6mm and 22 cal cartridges and clean around every 200-300 rounds. At that number of rounds I have tried soaking and nylon brushes and haven't been able to remove the carbon ring without abrasives. Maybe I need to start using bronze brushes instead.

I would be very interested in Frank Green's method of cleaning for maximum life of top accuracy. I have experimented with a few methods and have discovered that some of the barrels I thought were trashed really just had bad carbon rings and very little fire cracking after I bought a borescope. One was a factory Savage 243 barrel that I was running varget and 70 grain bt in. I was cleaning with foaming bore cleaner to clean patches every 50-60 rds. I checked it with a borescope and the carbon ring looks like a mountain. At the time I pulled it there were around 1200 rds through it. It had opened up from 3/8" to 1"+ at 100 yards. At that time I didn't even know there was a such thing as a carbon ring.

I would be very interested to learn how Frank does things. He deals with this stuff on a daily basis and helps customers troubleshoot as well as having extensive personal experience shooting his own stuff. My guess is, he has a sample size of experience that is exponentially higher than I will have in a lifetime.

You've pretty much hit it on the head.

I know back when Mid Tompkins shot a lot of Palma he told me that about every 200-300 rounds he would clean the barrel with JB Borecompound and concentrate on the throat area to help keep the throat smooth/and keep the carbon in check. It will get worse as the barrel gets more and more rounds on it as well. This was in a 308win and he didn't use a brush.

One of the guys in the shops 6.5PRC rifle started throwing fliers and the accuracy basically dropped to around 1 moa. When the barrel was new the thing would just hammer box ammo to .5moa. Fliers started to happen around 200ish rounds on it. They looked at the bore and Brady told him it was all carbon fouled bad. Brady cleaned it with JB and the accuracy etc...came right back. It just needed a good cleaning.

I have a slow method of cleaning and a fast method. If I'm using the fast method....after I can the bore with Sweet's 7.62 solvent and it's clean and dry patched out...every single I'm I'll use Rem. 40x cleaner and a patch/jag (NO BRUSH) and I'll run the patch/jag the length of the barrel about 10x but I'll work the lead/chamber area of the barrel a little more. Regardless of how many rounds on the barrel. As I feel the Rem. 40x cleaner if there is any Sweet's left over in the bore will neutralize it as well. After I dry patch the 40x out I'll give it a light coat of Hoppes #9 and dry patch the bore in the morning before I start shooting it again.

If I'm not in a hurry I'll just use Hoppe's and leave it in the bore even after the bore is supposedly clean.

I'll use a brush once in a while but only push the brush breech to muzzle and all the way out. I unscrew the brush before pulling the cleaning back thru and out. I don't drag the brush over the crown! Any damage to the crown and you can easily have accuracy problems.

Never use a stainless steel brush!

Later, Frank

 

[JGR1953]

Yep that's what can happen!

Using a brush in conjunction with an abrasive cleaner....is the cause of things like this.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

He's says the guns come from the factory like this.
I've looked and can't find anything from Tikka or Sako stating they machine barrels like this.
First he says his Tikka Tact and then his TRG42 has the same grooves cut.

 

[Krob95]

@Frank Green i have two of your barrels, a 6.5cm and a 6BRA, normal SS. What are your thoughts on CLR on the barrel? I’ve used it on a kreiger 6BR that I had carbon ring issues with and didn’t show any adverse effects. Figured I’d ask the man himself though.

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green i have two of your barrels, a 6.5cm and a 6BRA, normal SS. What are your thoughts on CLR on the barrel? I’ve used it on a kreiger 6BR that I had carbon ring issues with and didn’t show any adverse effects. Figured I’d ask the man himself though.

Can't say! Never tried it!

I could take a scrap barrel (or should I say a shot up barrel that is fouled) and do a long term test and see what happens.

I tell guys this....if you have a cleaning procedure and it works...just because the guy next to you does it differently doesn't mean he is doing it any better. As long as your not wrecking stuff....I've got nothing to say!

The hard part of this is not being a chemist per say and knowing how the different chemicals are going to react with the powder fouling, copper fouling...temperature, humidity etc...the environment the guy is doing everything in.

Unless your a chemist...either test on a scrap piece and see what happens before you try something unknown or start mixing cleaners etc...in a good gun/barrel.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

He's says the guns come from the factory like this.
I've looked and can't find anything from Tikka or Sako stating they machine barrels like this.
First he says his Tikka Tact and then his TRG42 has the same grooves cut.

View attachment 7550104

Not saying it's not possible...maybe something was done wrong at the factory but....we can throw Murphy's law into this and say anything is possible but.....

I've never seen a Sako type barrel ever look like that. I have two TRG42's in my office in 338 Lapua and they don't look anything like that. Also have a late 60's early 70's Sako barrel in 243win and it doesn't look like that at home. Again all the Sako/Tikka barrels that I've ever looked down...never seen that.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

I'd like to see some pictures of those Tikka barrels a little further up the bore. If it is only in the throat area of the chamber....then my guess would be a chambering issue happened.

 

[308pirate]

Unless your a chemist...either test on a scrap piece and see what happens before you try something unknown or start mixing cleaners etc...

Absolutely and not just because what it might do to the barrel, but because what it might do to your eyes, skin, or respiratory system.

 

[Krob95]

Thank you Frank for your reply!

 

[JGR1953]

I'd like to see some pictures of those Tikka barrels a little further up the bore. If it is only in the throat area of the chamber....then my guess would be a chambering issue happened.

Here are more pics of the Tikka T3x Tact .308

And these are all the pics of the Sako TRG42

 

[Frank Green]

So on the first pic's further up the bore....you don't have any of those grooves/chatter lines like you see in the throat it looks like.

If that is the case....then it has nothing to do with how the barrel got rifled when it was made or damage from cleaning per say.

If it's just in the throat area....check the rest of the chamber. If the case neck/body area of the chamber has similar marks even if they appear lighter/fainter/not as abrupt....then I have to say something happened during the chambering of the barrel/machine work wise.

With out it in front of me to look at....my guess is some form of chatter from the tooling.

Later, Frank

 

[FalconXR6]

Got a bit of a carbon ring building up in my HMR. So far it has defied my attempts at removing it. I've tried Hoppe's, CLP, and KG1 carbon remover. Used both nylon and bronze brushes but it just won't come out. I am getting concerned it will eventually cause some issues. What does the Hide use for this stuff? I don't want to "clean my barrel to death" doing it.

If the carbon ring is near the muzzle or at the start of the rifling , maybe you can use a cheap pistol cleaning rod . Cut the rod in front of the handle and put it in a drill , attach your bronze brush soaked with Hoppes #9 and put it in the barrel and let the drill do the work and see what happens.

 

[Frank Green]

I said it before and will say it again.....Don't use the drill method chucked onto a rod.....bore damage will happen! Can't tell you how many wrecked barrels I've seen that have been ruined by doing this.

One guy wrecked 3 barrels in a row!!!! Blamed us for bad steel, then blamed the gunsmith for bad gunsmithing work as well as blamed the gunsmith for using a bad chamber reamer....

Gunsmith caught him at a match cleaning the rifle with the drill routine. That explained everything.

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

I said it before and will say it again.....Don't use the drill method chucked onto a rod.....bore damage will happen! Can't tell you how many wrecked barrels I've seen that have been ruined by doing this.

One guy wrecked 3 barrels in a row!!!! Blamed us for bad steel, then blamed the gunsmith for bad gunsmithing work as well as blamed the gunsmith for using a bad chamber reamer....

Gunsmith caught him at a match cleaning the rifle with the drill routine. That explained everything.

I’m guilty. Watched Lou Murdica’s video and thought this guy has shot out more barrels than I ever will.

 

[Frank Green]

I’m guilty. Watched Lou Murdica’s video and thought this guy has shot out more barrels than I ever will.

I have to talk to Lou! Next time I have him on the phone I'm going to bring it up.

Guys I go back to what I always say.....if you have a cleaning method that you use and you get the barrel clean and your not wrecking anything....I've got nothing to say. Also that means that just because the guy next to you at the range/match etc...cleans his gun differently...doesn't mean he is doing it better.

 

[Lawnboi]

Leaning a lot on this thread. Appreciate the input frank.

I would like to see a clr test. Seems like the easy button if it dosnt cause any problems.

 

[BigHat]

Can't say! Never tried it!

I could take a scrap barrel (or should I say a shot up barrel that is fouled) and do a long term test and see what happens.

I tell guys this....if you have a cleaning procedure and it works...just because the guy next to you does it differently doesn't mean he is doing it any better. As long as your not wrecking stuff....I've got nothing to say!

The hard part of this is not being a chemist per say and knowing how the different chemicals are going to react with the powder fouling, copper fouling...temperature, humidity etc...the environment the guy is doing everything in.

Unless your a chemist...either test on a scrap piece and see what happens before you try something unknown or start mixing cleaners etc...in a good gun/barrel.

Later, Frank

The Vudoo co-owner did a cleaning video and noted that CLR will very quickly etch a barrel as he tested it on barrel material.

 

[Frank Green]

The Vudoo co-owner did a cleaning video and noted that CLR will very quickly etch a barrel as he tested it on barrel material.

I've heard that but cannot confirm it.

Mark here at the shop... he and I talked about....should've seen his face cringe!

 

[BigHat]

The use of CLR is discussed starting around the 8:30 mark if you only care about what he says about that.

 

[FalconXR6]

I said it before and will say it again.....Don't use the drill method chucked onto a rod.....bore damage will happen! Can't tell you how many wrecked barrels I've seen that have been ruined by doing this.

One guy wrecked 3 barrels in a row!!!! Blamed us for bad steel, then blamed the gunsmith for bad gunsmithing work as well as blamed the gunsmith for using a bad chamber reamer....

Gunsmith caught him at a match cleaning the rifle with the drill routine. That explained everything.

How can a bronze brush damage barrel steel rifling ? Sure if the rod is steel and it touches the inside of the barrel it’s possible to damage it but if only the bronze brush makes contact with the inside of the barrel I can’t see it doing any damage. The Bronze brush is softer that steel .

 

[Frank Green]

How can a bronze brush damage barrel steel rifling ? Sure if the rod is steel and it touches the inside of the barrel it’s possible to damage it but if only the bronze brush makes contact with the inside of the barrel I can’t see it doing any damage. The Bronze brush is softer that steel .

Yes it's softer than steel but you have to figure in the hard carbon particles get trapped in the bristles (the carbon will scratch worse than the brush) you have the drill at speed and then factor in some guys puts an abrasive compound etc...in there as well. Damage is going to happen. No way around it. For some it's going to happen faster than for someone else. Just too many factors involved.

I'm going totally off of memory but the bristles of the bronze brush are like 80 on the BHN scale. The steel is about 280ish. Now throw in the dirt etc...and the brush on a drill at speed.....think of it this way....why can water erode rocks? The water erodes from the repetition of the flow of the water which is carrying debris etc...So like the brush is softer than the steel as is the water is softer than the rock.

We see more damage from cleaning then from physically shooting the gun. (YOU STILL HAVE TO CLEAN THE GUN!) and the first thing we usually see damage done to the barrel is at the crown. Which is usually caused by pulling the brush back over the crown in my opinion. That's why I say if you use a brush...first push a couple of wet patches all the way thru the bore to get the really loose dirt/fouling out....then if you use a brush....push it breech to muzzle and all the way out. Never reverse the direction of the brush inside the bore....when you come all the way out of the muzzle end....remove the brush before pulling the cleaning rod back thru. This way your not dragging the brush back over the crown. The muzzles crown is the last thing the bullet sees when it leaves the barrel. Any damage here and you can quickly effect the accuracy of the rifle.

 

[FalconXR6]

Yes it's softer than steel but you have to figure in the hard carbon particles get trapped in the bristles (the carbon will scratch worse than the brush) you have the drill at speed and then factor in some guys puts an abrasive compound etc...in there as well. Damage is going to happen. No way around it. For some it's going to happen faster than for someone else. Just too many factors involved.

I'm going totally off of memory but the bristles of the bronze brush are like 80 on the BHN scale. The steel is about 280ish. Now throw in the dirt etc...and the brush on a drill at speed.....think of it this way....why can water erode rocks? The water erodes from the repetition of the flow of the water which is carrying debris etc...So the like the brush is softer than the steel as is the water is softer than the rock.

We see more damage from cleaning then from physically shooting the gun. (YOU STILL HAVE TO CLEAN THE GUN!) and the first thing we usually see damage done to the barrel is at the crown. Which is usually caused by pulling the brush back over the crown in my opinion. That's why I say if you use a brush...first push a couple of wet patches all the way thru the bore to get the really loose dirt/fouling out....then if you use a brush....push it breech to muzzle and all the way out. Never reverse the direction of the brush inside the bore....when you come all the way out of the muzzle end....remove the brush before pulling the cleaning rod back thru. This way your not dragging the brush back over the crown. The muzzles crown is the last thing the bullet sees when it leaves the barrel. Any damage here and you can quickly effect the accuracy of the rifle.

Copy that , point taken . Great advice.

 

[Frank Green]

Leaning a lot on this thread. Appreciate the input frank.

I would like to see a clr test. Seems like the easy button if it dosnt cause any problems.

Well started to do some testing....

One barrel has the bore coated (brand new barrel) as well as we have a couple of cut off pieces soaking in the stuff. Will see what happens on a long term test with that.

I poured some down two dirty used barrels. One is a 220 Swift in chrome moly steel and the other on is in 308w that we did all the work and install on for the local Sheriff's dept. rifles and that one is s.s. and approx. 6k rounds on it.

I had the used barrels tilted on a angle into the solven tank so the stuff could run down towards the muzzle but I didn't dry patch the bores. Just poured the CLR down them and nothing else.

The chrome moly barrel in 220 Swfit.....NOT GOOD! Just from sitting overnight where the liquid built up at the muzzles crown end....it pitted/etched the bore! Also any place the liquid sat wet.....(I didn't wipe anything off) it STRIPPED the blued finish off of the barrel!

The stainless 308 barrel I want to say there is a hint of pitting right at the crown edge but it might just be build up that needs to be patched out some more. Still playing with it.

I will say it did in aid in softening the carbon and makes it easier to get out but.....it did not remove it completely. Also it did nothing to the copper fouling in the bore in either barrel.

I also found out from Dave in the shop....he used it to clean a suppressor(s) with it and it will attack the cerakote finish....it started to change the finish on some nitrided parts as well. He said it did nothing in terms of pitting on some titanium metal.

So right now I have to say...you use it....be very careful with what you use it on and how long you use it etc...

Will keep playing with it but as of right now....I cannot recommend it for cleaning barrels. I still need to see more data/long term tests done with it.

The other thing that is difficult to figure in is where you live/the environment you are in when you use it. A guy in a dryer/less humid climate might have less of a chance of things to go sour...but a guy who lives near the ocean or in a real humid climate environment could be totally different in how it reacts for him.

 

[jbell]

I have tested CLR several times and have found it to be no more effective on carbon removal than Boretech C4 carbon remover, which is one of the best chemical carbon solvents I have used.

 

[Lawnboi]

Well started to do some testing....

One barrel has the bore coated (brand new barrel) as well as we have a couple of cut off pieces soaking in the stuff. Will see what happens on a long term test with that.

I poured some down two dirty used barrels. One is a 220 Swift in chrome moly steel and the other on is in 308w that we did all the work and install on for the local Sheriff's dept. rifles and that one is s.s. and approx. 6k rounds on it.

I had the used barrels tilted on a angle into the solven tank so the stuff could run down towards the muzzle but I didn't dry patch the bores. Just poured the CLR down them and nothing else.

The chrome moly barrel in 220 Swfit.....NOT GOOD! Just from sitting overnight where the liquid built up at the muzzles crown end....it pitted/etched the bore! Also any place the liquid sat wet.....(I didn't wipe anything off) it STRIPPED the blued finish off of the barrel!

The stainless 308 barrel I want to say there is a hint of pitting right at the crown edge but it might just be build up that needs to be patched out some more. Still playing with it.

I will say it did in aid in softening the carbon and makes it easier to get out but.....it did not remove it completely. Also it did nothing to the copper fouling in the bore in either barrel.

I also found out from Dave in the shop....he used it to clean a suppressor(s) with it and it will attack the cerakote finish....it started to change the finish on some nitrided parts as well. He said it did nothing in terms of pitting on some titanium metal.

So right now I have to say...you use it....be very careful with what you use it on and how long you use it etc...

Will keep playing with it but as of right now....I cannot recommend it for cleaning barrels. I still need to see more data/long term tests done with it.

The other thing that is difficult to figure in is where you live/the environment you are in when you use it. A guy in a dryer/less humid climate might have less of a chance of things to go sour...but a guy who lives near the ocean or in a real humid climate environment could be totally different in how it reacts for him.

Wow, I think I’ll stick with my normal process which is pretty much exactly like the vudoo video posted above.

Reading a lot on cleaning, the last few years Iv been pretty hands off in the cleaning department, sometimes 500 shots before a patch, I think I’ll change that and clean a little more frequently focusing mainly on carbon.

I’m a huge bore tech fan, as the solvents don’t stink. Any experience with bore tech c4?

I appreciate the feedback though. Just got my first bartlein spun up and have another waiting on a build for components to come back around.

 

[BuLLet]

I'd say you've tested it enough. The risk is too high and not worth the trouble it can cause. Last thing we need is damage caused by chemicals.

Don't use it!

Well started to do some testing....

One barrel has the bore coated (brand new barrel) as well as we have a couple of cut off pieces soaking in the stuff. Will see what happens on a long term test with that.

I poured some down two dirty used barrels. One is a 220 Swift in chrome moly steel and the other on is in 308w that we did all the work and install on for the local Sheriff's dept. rifles and that one is s.s. and approx. 6k rounds on it.

I had the used barrels tilted on a angle into the solven tank so the stuff could run down towards the muzzle but I didn't dry patch the bores. Just poured the CLR down them and nothing else.

The chrome moly barrel in 220 Swfit.....NOT GOOD! Just from sitting overnight where the liquid built up at the muzzles crown end....it pitted/etched the bore! Also any place the liquid sat wet.....(I didn't wipe anything off) it STRIPPED the blued finish off of the barrel!

The stainless 308 barrel I want to say there is a hint of pitting right at the crown edge but it might just be build up that needs to be patched out some more. Still playing with it.

I will say it did in aid in softening the carbon and makes it easier to get out but.....it did not remove it completely. Also it did nothing to the copper fouling in the bore in either barrel.

I also found out from Dave in the shop....he used it to clean a suppressor(s) with it and it will attack the cerakote finish....it started to change the finish on some nitrided parts as well. He said it did nothing in terms of pitting on some titanium metal.

So right now I have to say...you use it....be very careful with what you use it on and how long you use it etc...

Will keep playing with it but as of right now....I cannot recommend it for cleaning barrels. I still need to see more data/long term tests done with it.

The other thing that is difficult to figure in is where you live/the environment you are in when you use it. A guy in a dryer/less humid climate might have less of a chance of things to go sour...but a guy who lives near the ocean or in a real humid climate environment could be totally different in how it reacts for him.

 

[jbell]

I'd say you've tested it enough. The risk is too high and not worth the trouble it can cause. Last thing we need is damage caused by chemicals.

Don't use it!

Especially because there are solvents that are known safe on barrel steel that work well at removing carbon.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Well started to do some testing....

One barrel has the bore coated (brand new barrel) as well as we have a couple of cut off pieces soaking in the stuff. Will see what happens on a long term test with that.

I poured some down two dirty used barrels. One is a 220 Swift in chrome moly steel and the other on is in 308w that we did all the work and install on for the local Sheriff's dept. rifles and that one is s.s. and approx. 6k rounds on it.

I had the used barrels tilted on a angle into the solven tank so the stuff could run down towards the muzzle but I didn't dry patch the bores. Just poured the CLR down them and nothing else.

The chrome moly barrel in 220 Swfit.....NOT GOOD! Just from sitting overnight where the liquid built up at the muzzles crown end....it pitted/etched the bore! Also any place the liquid sat wet.....(I didn't wipe anything off) it STRIPPED the blued finish off of the barrel!

The stainless 308 barrel I want to say there is a hint of pitting right at the crown edge but it might just be build up that needs to be patched out some more. Still playing with it.

I will say it did in aid in softening the carbon and makes it easier to get out but.....it did not remove it completely. Also it did nothing to the copper fouling in the bore in either barrel.

I also found out from Dave in the shop....he used it to clean a suppressor(s) with it and it will attack the cerakote finish....it started to change the finish on some nitrided parts as well. He said it did nothing in terms of pitting on some titanium metal.

So right now I have to say...you use it....be very careful with what you use it on and how long you use it etc...

Will keep playing with it but as of right now....I cannot recommend it for cleaning barrels. I still need to see more data/long term tests done with it.

The other thing that is difficult to figure in is where you live/the environment you are in when you use it. A guy in a dryer/less humid climate might have less of a chance of things to go sour...but a guy who lives near the ocean or in a real humid climate environment could be totally different in how it reacts for him.

THANKS for this! Here's my $0.02 based on a bit of experience with CLR:

• I use CLR via thick patches wet with it. I concentrate on the first 8-10 inches in front of the chamber where most of the carbon fouling is found.
• It's awesome on thick carbon and carbon rings; I let the wet patch sit at the throat/rifling juncture for a few minutes to soften. Then I run a bronze bore brush through a few times - only from breech to muzzle; I don't pull it back through (anymore; thanks Frank), then 2-3 dry patches, then at least 2-3 patches with Hoppes or similar. Repeat until bore scope shows most, bit not every speck, of fouling removed.
• I never let CLR sit more than 15-20 minutes tops in a barrel.
• I've soaked brakes (bead-blasted but otherwise unfinished) in CLR for a couple hours with no visible effect.
• It doesn't touch copper fouling.
• It will - sure as sunrise - destroy bluing. Ask me how I know. I take a lot of care to keep the stuff from touching anything I wouldn't want burned, dissolved, etched, fried, etc.

I'm all in favor of using more "friendly" chemicals to remove carbon and copper, but have yet to try any more of them... I've heard too many "this stuff works great on all kinds of fouling" but, when I've tried them... pfft. Get out the bronze brushes and elbow grease. Guess I'll try some of the Bore Tech products....

 

[jh26]

I don't like bore snakes. Leave it in your cleaning kit and to be used for emergency cleaning in the field. My one problem with the bore snake is onces it's dirty...how do you clean the bore snake properly? So you end up pulling a dirty bore snake down the bore of the barrel. So that's why I say for emergency use only.

Do yourself a favor...buy a good one piece cleaning rod and use a good bore/cleaning rod guide.

Those small carbon particles can scratch the bore also. Think of where diamonds come from. Those carbon particles are very hard.

After shooting I clean my barrels completely clean per say. No copper left in them at all. Yes there is always some carbon build up in the bore. If you really want to get the barrel clean down to bare metal....your going to work at it.

Depending on the caliber....I'll use the JB bore compound about every 200-300 rounds fired especially when that throat area of the barrel starts to get rougher.

Frank, would it be possible to post a bore scope pic of a “barrel that starts to get rougher” and show us a before and after pic? I have a new Bartlein going on this week and would like to know what the heck we really should be looking for. For what it’s worth it’s a heavy varmint chambered in 260.

 

[ReaperDriver]

I just got a new borescope and wanted to see if I was experiencing the dreaded carbon ring. Is this it?

 

[B_w.]

Found this thread very informative. Tks for the discussion.

 

[Frank Green]

I just got a new borescope and wanted to see if I was experiencing the dreaded carbon ring. Is this it?
View attachment 7564093

Where did you take that picture at? Is that at the case mouth junction? That's what it looks like to me. Let me know.

 

[Frank Green]

So after doing some soaking tests over the past week.....I will confirm and say that if you leave CLR in the barrel for an extended period of time....it will also etch/pit the S.S. barrels as well.

So I cannot recommend you using it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

Frank, would it be possible to post a bore scope pic of a “barrel that starts to get rougher” and show us a before and after pic? I have a new Bartlein going on this week and would like to know what the heck we really should be looking for. For what it’s worth it’s a heavy varmint chambered in 260.

Let me get my flash drive. It's at home. I just came back from teaching a class and nearly all my stuff is sitting at home. I'll try and post some pic's tomorrow morning.

Later, Frank

 

[jh26]

Let me get my flash drive. It's at home. I just came back from teaching a class and nearly all my stuff is sitting at home. I'll try and post some pic's tomorrow morning.

Later, Frank

Thanks Frank, appreciate it very much. Also great information on CLR.....the new barrel will not be seeing any of it

 

[QRE23]

Let me get my flash drive. It's at home. I just came back from teaching a class and nearly all my stuff is sitting at home. I'll try and post some pic's tomorrow morning.

Later, Frank

Hey Frank, is there any chance you could post some pics of pitting versus carbon build up and maybe even describe what to look for and how to decipher the difference between the two when looking at it with a borescope. We see these pics of what people call pitting but often it has a more raised look to it and looks more like carbon buildup than actually pitting. If you could possibly give a quick lesson on what to look for and how to tell the difference it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Painless300]

I have been using CLR with the last 8 barrels I've owned. The only issues I have seen is truning Cerakote of little off color. I use my bore scope with every cleaning and have yet to find any pitting or etching in any of my barrels.
I sincerely respect Frank's findings as some of these barrels are his and he is much more of an expert than I am. However, i think its the process in which you use CLR that may or may not cause to issues.
I ususally only clean every 100 rounds unless I'm going to let the rifle sit a while. I use CLR as the very first step in my cleaning process just to scrub the throat and then run it down the barrel a few time to loosen everything up using a combination of the aggressive pellets and patches, I never use a drill! I follow with Patchout Wipeout, brushing, another round of Patchout wipe out and then dry patches. Check with borescope and repeat if carbon still exist. Only on one barrel using this regiment have I ever had to go back for a second round.
My point is I never leave CLR in my bore for more than 10 to 15 mins. and I don't neglect cleaning on a regular basis.
I think some of the issues outlined in this thread are caused by leaving CLR for extended periods of time like cleaning Ti suppressors.
Until I see my accuracy fall off or some other issue I will continue with my cleaning process and will include CLR as it does a fantastic job on carbon rings.