Gunsmithing Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

[BlackOps Tech]

I've made mention in the past of my testing of Carbon Fiber Wrapped Barrels and the claims of how they dissipate heat. My initial thought was that I wouldn't post the results, but I've been asked by numerous members to share the information.

The details are as follows:

OAT--40* F
We fired 20 rounds of Hornady 178gr SuperPerformance Match in each rifle with normal bolt manipulation. The temperature was sampled by a Data Logging Digital Pyrometer at a rate of five seconds over the course of five minutes following the firing of 20 rounds.

Temperatures were sampled with closed bolt after firing and the rifles were not standing vertically during the five minute cool-down period. All temps are Fahrenheit.

Barrels Tested:
ABS 20" CF, Varmint Type Contour
BlackOps Precision 18" KUKRI Contour (Also Varmint Type)

Bore Temp Prior To Firing:
ABS: 42*
BOP: 42*

After 20 Rounds Fired:
ABS: 138*
BOP: 123*

Temp Rise from Ambient Bore:
ABS: 96*
BOP: 81*

Total Temp Increase:
ABS: 228.6%
BOP: 192.9%

Bore Temp After 5 Minutes:
ABS: 122* (Dissipated 16*)
BOP: 106* (Dissipated 17*)

Degrees Dissipated Per Minute:
ABS: 3.2*
BOP: 3.4*

Percentage of Dissipated Heat After 5 Minutes:
ABS: 16.7%
BOP: 21%

I'll take this opportunity to say that there's nothing magical about the BOP barrel. It's manufactured by Bartlein out of 416 SS and the contour is specific to BlackOps Precision. Other than that, it's a typical Varmint Contour Type barrel and the point of this test is not to draw attention to a BOP barrel. I suspect any other barrel brand of the same material and similar contour would have performed the same.

Based on my observation of the two barrels, it's quite apparent that, not only does the CF wrapped barrel heat up faster, but it holds the heat longer and closer to the bore than the non-wrapped barrel. It also appears that the dissipation between the two barrels is not linear....

All in all, I really like the ABS barrel, but as I've stated in the recent past, there's nothing magical about them. I haven't found that they cool expressly faster than a non-wrapped barrel and although I've not seen nor generated any scientific data that supports their longevity, I have to doubt that they last two to three times longer than a non-wrapped barrel. Obviously, it would take a long time to generate factual longevity data and I really don't see creating the bandwidth to do so.

Basically, I appreciate them as a way to save weight, but.......

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Interesting read.

I have a CF barrel on a 6.5x47L. It's really nice for how light it is. I was always under the impression that one of the big benefits was quicker cooling, but that may not be the case. Mine is setup for hunting so it's not really a factor.

 

[LRI]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Be interesting to see if one outshines the other under a sustained rate of fire test.

for example:

Box of 100 rounds, say in 308 shot at a cadence of 12-15 rounds per minute. (same as an M-16A2)

be curious as to how the group opened up as things went into Chernobyl state.

Nice job on the data report.

C.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

This is not surprising in the least, as the rate of conducted heat transfer from the chamber to ambient air is going to be dominated by the surface area of the barrel and the rate of airflow (either forced or via self-induced convection) across the barrel surface (I'm ignore heat transfer via radiation as I'm assuming it is fairly trivial). You can perform whatever magic you wish with the barrel materials to improve conduction within the barrel, but the heat transfer process to still air is very inefficient.

The reduction in mass caused by the CFRP construction is likely the cause of the worse performance of the ABS barrel. It would be nice to get material parameters from ABS (specifically, the thermal resistance and heat capacity) to validate this hypothesis, but I will not hold my breath

Just a quick side note, Mike - it's best to avoid the use of percentages when discussion temperature unless you are using units of thermodynamic temperature (Kelvin or Rankine), or are discussing relative temperatures. Your first usage of percentage ("Total Temp Increase") is the one that is annoying my inner perfectionist

That minor complaint aside, thanks for the awesome work!

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting read.

I have a CF barrel on a 6.5x47L. It's really nice for how light it is. I was always under the impression that one of the big benefits was quicker cooling, but that may not be the case. Mine is setup for hunting so it's not really a factor. </div></div>

Thanks for the info and I'm certain your rifle will perform within the parameters that you use it. I like the idea of the lighter hunting rifles where there aren't typically a lot of rounds put down range at once....

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Be interesting to see if one outshines the other under a sustained rate of fire test.

for example:

Box of 100 rounds, say in 308 shot at a cadence of 12-15 rounds per minute. (same as an M-16A2)

be curious as to how the group opened up as things went into Chernobyl state.

Nice job on the data report.

C. </div></div>

Thanks Chad and you make some valid points. Although I don't think I'll have the time to invest in the test you mention, maybe someone here will.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is not surprising in the least, as the rate of conducted heat transfer from the chamber to ambient air is going to be dominated by the surface area of the barrel and the rate of airflow (either forced or via self-induced convection) across the barrel surface (I'm ignore heat transfer via radiation as I'm assuming it is fairly trivial). You can perform whatever magic you wish with the barrel materials to improve conduction within the barrel, but the heat transfer process to still air is very inefficient.

The reduction in mass caused by the CFRP construction is likely the cause of the worse performance of the ABS barrel. It would be nice to get material parameters from ABS (specifically, the thermal resistance and heat capacity) to validate this hypothesis, but I will not hold my breath

Just a quick side note, Mike - it's best to avoid the use of percentages when discussion temperature unless you are using units of thermodynamic temperature (Kelvin or Rankine), or are discussing relative temperatures. Your first usage of percentage ("Total Temp Increase") is the one that is annoying my inner perfectionist

That minor complaint aside, thanks for the awesome work! </div></div>

You're absolutely right Eric. Surface area of the better conductor of heat will typically prevail....especially if it's Aluminum.

Understood on the "percentages" and I agree. I opted not to get very deep into the "Kelvin" speak as this was a basic test conducted in a controlled manner. Time was also a factor and if I spoke about thermodynamic principles, I'd still be writing the original post....

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

I have the time if someone wants to provide the barrels and chambering. Surely one of you guys have a few laying around??

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're absolutely right Eric. Surface area of the better conductor of heat will typically prevail....especially if it's Aluminum.</div></div>

The better that the material conducts heat internally, the more that its ultimate heat-transfer performance will be affected by its ability to conduct that heat to the ambient environment - basically making things a matter of surface area in the case of still air and temperatures low enough where radiation doesn't dominate. Physics can be a real bitch

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Understood on the "percentages" and I agree. I opted not to get very deep into the "Kelvin" speak as this was a basic test conducted in a controlled manner. Time was also a factor and if I spoke about thermodynamic principles, I'd still be writing the original post.... </div></div>

Not an issue, man - you did a huge service by going into the field and acquiring real data while keyboard kommandos like myself sit here and take shots. Thanks again for your efforts.

 

[Red Ryder]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

If a barrel was dimpled, like a golf ball, would the surface area be increased and if so, would it have an enhanced cooling effect?

I hate fluted barrels but I like the idea of enhanced cooling.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

i'd love to see the supposid cooling effects of fluted barrels put to rest in a test like this.

 

[bohem]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Mike, this is a great step towards providing real data for this "heated" discussion...


OK, bad pun.


Like we've discussed in the past I do a lot of work with CFRP structures, I can't honestly say I'm surprised at the results thus far.


I'd be happy to help you run through further testing if you'd like to run more testing. I realize you're "busier than a 1 armed paper hanger" (Chad I love that analogy BTW) so if I can give you a hand let me know. We can talk offline, just give me a call.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd love to see the supposid cooling effects of fluted barrels put to rest in a test like this. </div></div>

300,
For the most part, my feeling is that fluting is a good way to save weight and it's aesthetically appealing. We do a lot of fluting on our hunting rifles, but we don't flute with the idea that we're forcing the barrel to cool significantly faster. It's true that the surface area is increased, but the mass is also decreased, so the barrel will heat more quickly....just like the ABS barrel.

Depending on contour, we can remove about six ounces of material by fluting. This is roughly the difference in weight of the tested ABS CF barrel and the KUKRI Contour, but the CF barrel is $900 (equating to $100 an ounce of weight saved). Fluting a barrel typically runs abut $150.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Thanks Mike! I have/had interest in CF barrels but, regular, round(not fluted!), 416SS is just so practical and does so well.
How machinable is a CF barrel(the CF itself)? I heard you can turn them down. I figured they'd have to come a little more finished than that.
I've never even seen a pic of a #7 ABS blank for example. Would there be 5" of 1.25 steel, then a light ass taper Rock barrel under CF out to like 3" short of specified length?(where this last 3" would again be steel)
I know nothing about them but they've always intrigued me.




Chad supply me with the barrels and 200 rounds and I'll do your test

I have an interest in the performance of rifles after high rates of fire.
Like shooting a 5 shot slow fire group, then 50 shots as fast as I can accurately fire them, to see if I get a POI shift.

Would also be interested in how throat damage changed from rapid firing.

Chad send two more barrels and 5000 rounds, 6.5Creed please.
I'll shoot both barrels out, one slow fire, one as fast as I can and not melt anything.
Oh I'll need a good borescope too.
Thanks

This is going to be a great test!

I dont think the groups will just open up. But will form a wide string.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, this is a great step towards providing real data for this "heated" discussion...


OK, bad pun.


Like we've discussed in the past I do a lot of work with CFRP structures, I can't honestly say I'm surprised at the results thus far.


I'd be happy to help you run through further testing if you'd like to run more testing. I realize you're "busier than a 1 armed paper hanger" (Chad I love that analogy BTW) so if I can give you a hand let me know. We can talk offline, just give me a call.

</div></div>

Thanks Josh and I see you being involved in further testing down the road. Essentially I know what I need to right now, so my investment of energy in the project has reached its max for the time being (although I'll be testing the CF rifle for accuracy today).

Let's plan to link up on the phone early next week....

 

[turbo54]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd love to see the supposid cooling effects of fluted barrels put to rest in a test like this. </div></div>

There would be little to no measurable difference in a test like this. For practical purposes, consider fluted barrels an aesthetics thing ONLY. I love fluted barrels, by the way.

Now, if you compared a fluted and non fluted barrel heated to 1000ºC and measured how long it took to cool to 500ºC, you'd see the fluted barrel make a difference.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Good info. I have a build in the finishing stages now with a Rock/ABS. I used it for the weight savings over a comparable sized all steel barrel for a walking varmint gun with a fat barrel. All I wanted was weight savings...looks like that is all I will get.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd love to see the supposid cooling effects of fluted barrels put to rest in a test like this. </div></div>

There would be little to no measurable difference in a test like this. For practical purposes, consider fluted barrels an aesthetics thing ONLY. I love fluted barrels, by the way.

Now, if you compared a fluted and non fluted barrel heated to 1000ºC and measured how long it took to cool to 500ºC, you'd see the fluted barrel make a difference. </div></div>

i have a hunch the way it would end up but i still get a laugh when people try to justify some sort of practical result for something that looks cool. fluted or non fluted, i've never had a problem resulting from barrel heat in any situation i have ever been in with a bolt action rifle.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd love to see the supposid cooling effects of fluted barrels put to rest in a test like this. </div></div>

There would be little to no measurable difference in a test like this. For practical purposes, consider fluted barrels an aesthetics thing ONLY. I love fluted barrels, by the way.

Now, if you compared a fluted and non fluted barrel heated to 1000ºC and measured how long it took to cool to 500ºC, you'd see the fluted barrel make a difference. </div></div>

i have a hunch the way it would end up but i still get a laugh when people try to justify some sort of practical result for something that looks cool. fluted or non fluted, i've never had a problem resulting from barrel heat in any situation i have ever been in with a bolt action rifle. </div></div>

I highly agree 300. I'm also amused by technology that looks for a problem instead of first identifying and understanding a real issue prior to creating a solution.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Thanks for sharing the info Mike, I have often wondered about the ABS barrels. Especially after seeing CF handguards on ARs heat up as fast and then seem to stay hot longer than a similar plain round aluminum counterpart...

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, this is a great step towards providing real data for this "heated" discussion...


OK, bad pun.

</div></div>

Josh, I bet you just crack yourself up sometimes sitting in your cubical wishing you had somebody to high five

 

[bohem]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, this is a great step towards providing real data for this "heated" discussion...


OK, bad pun.

</div></div>

Josh, I bet you just crack yourself up sometimes sitting in your cubical wishing you had somebody to high five

</div></div>

Pretty much... that's when I call you

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Thanks for sharing the information.

 

[Cegorach]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Great information. It is something I have always been peripherally curious about.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for sharing the information. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cegorach</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great information. It is something I have always been peripherally curious about. </div></div>

Thanks Guys. Although I wasn't surprised about the ability of a CF wrapped barrel to realistically "dissipate" heat, relatively speaking, I was impressed with accuracy.

I posted an accuracy report, but I deleted the post. I somehow smoked my SD card and couldn't post pics of the target, so I deemed the report a bit unfair to the ABS guys.

Although I won't cover the ABS CF barrel with our accuracy guarantee (five groups, five shots, group average of 3/8 MOA or smaller), I'll say that the ABS barrel more than outshines other CF barrels in the accuracy department. There is definite group dispersion as the barrel heats up, but if you're willing to spend $900, it's my opinion that the ABS barrel is great for lighter weight hunting rifles.

 

[buckey]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Damn - those ABS barrels are not cheap!!

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

BTT.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

I have only had one CF barrel that shined group wise. The others weren't that special. I do (did) have one on an AR and the CF started delaminating around the gas block. It did seems to cool allot faster than a steel barrel when it was heated up significantly. Put 50 or 60 rounds thru fast and you might find it cools faster or better to a point.

media blasting your barrel will increase the surface area substantially, not glass beads that actually polish but sand or aluminum oxide

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

This makes perfect sense as carbon is an insulator. I was actually thinking about this a while back and had the same theory (the ABS barrel should insulate).

It's nice to see the testing.

Aluminum on the other hand moves heat- so an aluminum encased barrel should cool faster. I've talked to machine designers who put a 1/4" or 3/8" aluminum layer onto a steel part, and are able to reduce operating temperatures from glowing red, to less than 600F without resorting to liquid cooling systems.

I haven't experienced that, but the concept is sound (as aluminum has a high rate of thermal transfer and is a conductor of heat).

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have only had one CF barrel that shined group wise. The others weren't that special. I do (did) have one on an AR and the CF started delaminating around the gas block. It did seems to cool allot faster than a steel barrel when it was heated up significantly. Put 50 or 60 rounds thru fast and you might find it cools faster or better to a point.

media blasting your barrel will increase the surface area substantially, not glass beads that actually polish but sand or aluminum oxide </div></div>

As far as accuracy goes, relatively speaking, I was rather pleased to see group sizes smaller than 1.5". The first five shot group out of this barrel measured less than .4", but group dispersion started after the first three shots.

I'm not so sure that firing more rounds faster would change anything, as the composition of the insulating material won't change with additional heat. Also, there's less barrel material, so the heat will (and did) rise much faster.

Thanks Glen....

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This makes perfect sense as carbon is an insulator. I was actually thinking about this a while back and had the same theory (the ABS barrel should insulate).

It's nice to see the testing.

Aluminum on the other hand moves heat- so an aluminum encased barrel should cool faster. I've talked to machine designers who put a 1/4" or 3/8" aluminum layer onto a steel part, and are able to reduce operating temperatures from glowing red, to less than 600F without resorting to liquid cooling systems.

I haven't experienced that, but the concept is sound (as aluminum has a high rate of thermal transfer and is a conductor of heat). </div></div>

My initial thoughts as well Griff, and ultimately the reason I performed the test. Too many stories out there about "magical" carbon fiber and epoxy, so I had to test it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

I've periodically made direct reference to this, with essentially zero stated response; yet this thread pretty much confirms my reasons for doing so. Trying to be helpful can sometiomes be a tad frustrating.

If I could get anything I wanted for Christmas, this would be it.

Greg

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've periodically made direct reference to this, with essentially zero stated response; yet this thread pretty much confirms my reasons for doing so. Trying to be helpful can sometiomes be a tad frustrating.

If I could get anything I wanted for Christmas, this would be it.

Greg </div></div>

You're wise beyond your years Greg. I've always been intrigued by the Lothar approach. I like the fact that there's no adhesives or other compounds that can soften with heat. If they're using an explosive bonding process, even more the better.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

My understanding suggests a hot/cold/shrink process. I know that during development, they had tried spaced urethane bands, but that turned out to be an unnecessary complexity.

Greg

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

The sensible approach would be to eliminate complexities where possible (and the hot/cold shrink method certainly does that).

I've never seen the wrapping and grinding process (for carbon wrapped barrels), but I can't imagine that it's a very clean process and certainly not without its challenges....Hence the price tag.

 

[varoum]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Well Mike you have answered the question.

But Proof research did not say one word. Quote from there web site: It’s a process more commonly used in aerospace applications that dissipates heat exponentially faster than a steel barrel. Our proven technique also significantly lightens the weight, dampens vibration, and offers a stiffer, reduced barrel diameter for improved accuracy and extended barrel life.Our barrels stay cool, but they also take a beating.

My carbon barrel is for an hunting rifle, pretty expensive for the weight saved.

Great job!

 

[mdesign]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: varoum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....My carbon barrel is for an hunting rifle, pretty expensive for the weight saved...</div></div>

Mine too, I like it and it works well for me without any of the flyers, etc, that others say they have seen. Maybe I got lucky, who knows.

Probably do something different once it come time to rebarrel but satisfied for now.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

I didn't want to get (anymore) involved in this issue but I figured I'd put in my ¢2 regarding this topic.

First off, I do NOT work for Proof Research or any of it's associated companies (Xtreme Precision Armaments - XPA, Lone Wolf Rifle Stocks, Jense Precision or Advanced Barrel Systems - ABS) nor do I own stock in any of these companies. I do not contract with any of these companies.

I HAVE <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">in the past</span></span> worked for XPA but have since moved on. This means that I have no relationship with Proof Research and no vested interest in the company's welfare. So what I say is that of a former employee and as a former/current customer of ABS and Jense Precision.

I have owned over 12 ABS barrels at last count. As an employee, I also studied the wrapping, "cureing" and grinding procedure and know how it's done. My knowledge of these procedures is above that of any ABS <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">customer</span></span> that I have ever met.

So, if you believe that it's <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">not in ANY way possible</span></span> to take carbon fiber (in ANY of its forms) and wrap a barrel using a very precise operation (of resin, heat and a carefully calculated and tested series of wrapping angles and tensions), to get a product that will DISSIPATE heat instead of INSULATE heat, more power to you.

The world is flat, airplanes don't fly, the NSA is controlling all of our thoughts, etc.

Like I said, I have owned over a dozen ABS barrels. If I didn't have such a terminal case of Rifle A.D.D. ("R.A.D.D." to the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">extreme</span></span>), I would still own most of those barrels. Having owned, shot, and tested over a dozen of these in a time period spanning about 10 years I can tell you that these barrels are excellent.

Ok, so what the fuck do I know?

My military history is that of being a Infantry Paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division, Ranger qualified and Senior rated Jumpmaster. I was a Team leader, Squad leader, Section leader and finally a Platoon Sergeant. After the Army I was a Blackwater contractor and worked both Iraq and Afghanistan.

That being said, if I could choose ANY barrel to go to combat with, it would be an ABS wrapped barrel. Why? Because these fuckers work better than any other barrel out there when it comes to rapidly dissapating heat and staying on target. And when shit hits the fan, hitting your target is a matter of life and death.

As of this writing, Proof Research is NOT a Sniper's Hide sponser. Why? Because Proof Research doesn't do anything half-assed. Proof is at an all time record high for production. It's stock division alone has increased 6 fold in size in less than 1 year. Demand for Proof's rifles, stocks and barrels is through the roof. Proof is also up to it's eyeballs buying the latest in CNC machining and testing equipment PLUS is building a state of the art manufacturing and testing facility. Proof simply doesn't have the resources to do all this, plus train new people, program new machines, develop new products while sponsering all the various forums on the web that cater to shooting. That's why Proof hasn't responded to this silly shit.

Do me a favor. DON'T buy an ABS barrel. I know how long the wait can be to get an ABS barrel. How extremely difficult it's been to get cut rifled barrels (much less DOZENS and even HUNDREDS of custom contoured barrels) from manufactures (Satern, Rock, Bartlein, Krieger) lately. I've seen the delays in getting barrel blanks for wrapping ABS barrels, how precisely ABS barrels are wrapped and contoured, how thoroughly ABS barrels are tested and how amazingly hard the folks at Proof Research work to get these barrels done right and out the door.

And frankly, I want more of these barrels for myself. I don't want to share. Fuck that! I already have to deal with a bunch of SEALs, Rangers and Marines buying these, why would I want a group of nay-sayers ordering them as well? Believe what you want. And down the road when you wished that you bought an ABS barrel when you had the chance, well, sucks to be you!

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

FWIW - Independent testing of ABS barrels thermal dissapating capabilities including IR pictures posting on the Long Range Hunting forum.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/338-thunder-project-13538/index28.html
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/338-thunder-project-13538/

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Ranger1183, Dude! Kick some butt man!!!!!!!!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

tag for later reading

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

I owned an ABS barrel. - I actually owned two. I only shot one- the wait times to get them were several months for one and 8-9 months for the other. They were $600-$650 barrels. Very expensive barrels.

I took the 10.5" Pacnor polygonal 1/7 twist SS barrel ABS had wrapped to the range and in the first 60 rounds I had one round keyhole on the target at 25 yards.

I can't recall ever having a bullet keyhole prior to that or after that. I sold both barrels.

I could see where someone could use a heat gun and get low temp reads off carbon fiber- I could also see how the underlying steel could be quite a bit hotter than the carbon fiber and give a bad heat gun read or thermocouple reading.

I didn't do a scientific test, but the keyholing inside 60 rounds didn't help me have any extra faith in the barrel being of higher quality than chrome moly chrome lined.

I've never heard of a carbon wrapped barrel being used on a carbine ever in the military. That doesn't mean it can't or hasn't happened, but I don't think people are falling over themselves to get these barrels on their high fire-schedule guns.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't want to get (anymore) involved in this issue but I figured I'd put in my ¢2 regarding this topic.

First off, I do NOT work for Proof Research or any of it's associated companies (Xtreme Precision Armaments - XPA, Lone Wolf Rifle Stocks, Jense Precision or Advanced Barrel Systems - ABS) nor do I own stock in any of these companies. I do not contract with any of these companies.

I HAVE <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">in the past</span></span> worked for XPA but have since moved on. This means that I have no relationship with Proof Research and no vested interest in the company's welfare. So what I say is that of a former employee and as a former/current customer of ABS and Jense Precision.

I have owned over 12 ABS barrels at last count. As an employee, I also studied the wrapping, "cureing" and grinding procedure and know how it's done. My knowledge of these procedures is above that of any ABS <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">customer</span></span> that I have ever met.

So, if you believe that it's <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">not in ANY way possible</span></span> to take carbon fiber (in ANY of its forms) and wrap a barrel using a very precise operation (of resin, heat and a carefully calculated and tested series of wrapping angles and tensions), to get a product that will DISSIPATE heat instead of INSULATE heat, more power to you.

The world is flat, airplanes don't fly, the NSA is controlling all of our thoughts, etc.

Like I said, I have owned over a dozen ABS barrels. If I didn't have such a terminal case of Rifle A.D.D. ("R.A.D.D." to the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">extreme</span></span>), I would still own most of those barrels. Having owned, shot, and tested over a dozen of these in a time period spanning about 10 years I can tell you that these barrels are excellent.

Ok, so what the fuck do I know?

My military history is that of being a Infantry Paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division, Ranger qualified and Senior rated Jumpmaster. I was a Team leader, Squad leader, Section leader and finally a Platoon Sergeant. After the Army I was a Blackwater contractor and worked both Iraq and Afghanistan.

That being said, if I could choose ANY barrel to go to combat with, it would be an ABS wrapped barrel. Why? Because these fuckers work better than any other barrel out there when it comes to rapidly dissapating heat and staying on target. And when shit hits the fan, hitting your target is a matter of life and death.

As of this writing, Proof Research is NOT a Sniper's Hide sponser. Why? Because Proof Research doesn't do anything half-assed. Proof is at an all time record high for production. It's stock division alone has increased 6 fold in size in less than 1 year. Demand for Proof's rifles, stocks and barrels is through the roof. Proof is also up to it's eyeballs buying the latest in CNC machining and testing equipment PLUS is building a state of the art manufacturing and testing facility. Proof simply doesn't have the resources to do all this, plus train new people, program new machines, develop new products while sponsering all the various forums on the web that cater to shooting. That's why Proof hasn't responded to this silly shit.

Do me a favor. DON'T buy an ABS barrel. I know how long the wait can be to get an ABS barrel. How extremely difficult it's been to get cut rifled barrels (much less DOZENS and even HUNDREDS of custom contoured barrels) from manufactures (Satern, Rock, Bartlein, Krieger) lately. I've seen the delays in getting barrel blanks for wrapping ABS barrels, how precisely ABS barrels are wrapped and contoured, how thoroughly ABS barrels are tested and how amazingly hard the folks at Proof Research work to get these barrels done right and out the door.

And frankly, I want more of these barrels for myself. I don't want to share. Fuck that! I already have to deal with a bunch of SEALs, Rangers and Marines buying these, why would I want a group of nay-sayers ordering them as well? Believe what you want. And down the road when you wished that you bought an ABS barrel when you had the chance, well, sucks to be you!

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Ranger,
I sincerely appreciate and Thank You for your service to our Country and I have a high level of respect for your resume'.

I also appreciate the passion in your response here, but respectfully, was expecting something a little different from you. Although it may be true that you're no longer affiliated with the companies you listed, you did actually advertise an exploded level of performance on behalf of the company you were working for at the time and then mention here that the company is not a sponsor because they don't do things half-assed. Does being a sponsor here promote a half-assed approach, or advertising as a non-sponsor? Just asking.

The thermal photos actually prove nothing. I happen to have a rather accomplished back-ground in thermal imagery technology, so I'll ask this: Have you ever physically observed (with the naked eye) a heat source on the other side of a pane of glass and then looked at that source with a thermal camera? Could you see the heat? The answer is "NO." Why? Because glass is an insulator.

Have you ever looked at a STANLEY Thermos full of hot coffee with a thermal camera? Could you see the level of heat that truly represented the internal heat? The answer is "NO." Given these very simple examples, do you think conceptually that a thermal camera has the functional qualities of an X-Ray? It doesn't....Simply stated, a thermal camera cannot see through an insulating material.

I'll go a little further here to re-iterate....I tested a carbon wrapped barrel in a controlled environment and provided solid data related to the performance of the barrel. Two engineers in the aerospace industry (because the carbon technology is allegedly inherent to the aerospace industry) agreed with the results prior to me posting the data (these guys make a living by knowing something about carbon fiber).

To date, no data has been offered (aside from conjecture and thermal images) that counters the validity of my findings. If you have solid data that says the barrels cool "300 times faster" (than non-wrapped barrels) and last "two to three times longer," I'd certainly be skippy about posting it. Otherwise, you're absolutely correct about this being "silly."

 

[car2go4]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

btt -- hopefully more ppl will see this and not get ripped off spending 2x for match barrel.

again nice work mike

 

[Mark Housel]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To date, no data has been offered (aside from conjecture and thermal images) that counters the validity of my findings. If you have solid data that says the barrels cool "300 times faster" (than non-wrapped barrels) and last "two to three times longer," I'd certainly be skippy about posting it. Otherwise, you're absolutely correct about this being "silly."</div></div>
I'm surprised no one has taken these barrels and placed a thermocouple at the surface of the metal portion of the barrel (just a small hole would be required) to get a read on the actual barrel temperature and cooling rate.

Same thing could be done with a standard barrel.

Voila, objective evidence of the effectiveness of the wrapping layer as a heat dissipation system.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Housel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised no one has taken these barrels and placed a thermocouple at the surface of the metal portion of the barrel (just a small hole would be required) to get a read on the actual barrel temperature and cooling rate.</div></div>

I am not surprised that none of the carbon-wrapped barrel fans have done this, as I highly suspect that it would not support their claims of improved cooling performance. They are welcome to prove me wrong, of course.

 

[Chabrone]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bob2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">btt -- hopefully more ppl will see this and not get ripped off spending 2x for match barrel.

again nice work mike </div></div>

A majority of the people buying wrapped barrels are seeking weight reduction and are not getting "ripped off". As long as the wrapping doesn't negatively affect accuracy, I would be happy as I don't worry about the barrel heating up. But that is what I care about.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

Locked at the request of the OP

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

This thread is now unlocked for those that missed the results of the heat test. As a result of the findings in this test, the results in the video of another thread were predicted.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

While I am fascinated and intrigued by the theory and practical knowledge contained in this thread, I just have to keep coming back to the practical common denominator.

In the end, the only factor I consider paramount is consistent accuracy.

Inquiring minds want to know, which barrel fabrication concept holds zero and preferable dispersion best over a regimen of sustained fire?

Greg