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Care And Feeding Of A GAP 6.5 SAUM.....
- Thread starter psinclair
- Start date
George, you could probably sell 100k right now by starting a group buy!!
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This cartridge looks great.
George thank you for taking time to tell me about the 6.5 SAUM at shot show.
Getting brass ready to go is fantastic.
Now back to getting all the parts I need to send to George to get my 6.5 SAUM built.
George thank you for taking time to tell me about the 6.5 SAUM at shot show.
Getting brass ready to go is fantastic.
Now back to getting all the parts I need to send to George to get my 6.5 SAUM built.
How much would you guys say you average cost per round is? It seems expencive to me at first glance but with the long brass life it may not be as bad as im thinking.
If you prep brass yourself:
Brass 1.32
JLK 140 .55
Primer .03
Powder (61 h1000) .24
Total first firing not including time to prep brass $2.14
$.82/round after that.
Brass 1.32
JLK 140 .55
Primer .03
Powder (61 h1000) .24
Total first firing not including time to prep brass $2.14
$.82/round after that.
Has anyone made a Wilson inline seater die with the finish reamer? Need some info regarding the total length to cut the did blank to using the vld seating drift. The vld stems are a bit longer I think. I don't want to cut the die too long or short to where I won't have enough adjustment range. I've had them made before on long action calibers but not short action. Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Jmilera
George I have the old berger 130 grain with a bc of .,596 recommended for hunting or raxondeded for a 1-9 wrist will this be a problem ? I plan to use the rifle diebdixrewerq wir
Originally Posted by Jmilera
Hwiegaevgrhay diora dincihabquiagalt?
What do you normally text that causes auto correct to do this?
MY 3 Year old !!!! Sorry guys
George I have the old berger 130 grain with a bc of .,596 recommended for hunting or raxondeded for a 1-9 wrist will this be a problem ? I plan to use the rifle diebdixrewerq wir
Originally Posted by Jmilera
Hwiegaevgrhay diora dincihabquiagalt?
What do you normally text that causes auto correct to do this?
MY 3 Year old !!!! Sorry guys
Im in the same boat as you.
I figured the hard way that you cant just neck down then neck turn.
When you neck down the run-out is shit and know I understand why. So in the same way of thought if you neck turn an un-concentric neck you will eat one side more than another, creating a weakness in the should junction.
Also if you just neck down with the fl/bushing you do not resize the neck 100% because of the shoulder in the die that hold the bushing
So their is a portion unsized and therefore you dont really know where is the real neck/shoulder junction.
I found that you absolutely need to fireforme, first to straighten the neck after neck sizing and second to find the real place of the shoulder junction.
Then you can neck turn and do a proper job.
I have scaped to many remington brass and I wish I knew this before wasting time and components..
When I finish my load development I will make a care and feed 2.0
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Could it be that you need to square up the case mouths on your trimmer to make sure that the cutter is getting the same "depth restrictions/control" all the way around the case? I understand the runout, but if the case mouths are not square, that might be a little part of it.
My $.02
My $.02
No this is not related and even if it was i trim to lenght with my wilson trimmer before neck-turning.
If the neck is not straight the cutter willl remove more material one side vs the other(in the shoulder/neck junstion area)
because yes the neck is supported by the mandrel but when you come near the shoulder junction this is where you start to have material accumulation , you come close to the shoulder and you the shoulder is not guided by the mandrel only the neck
This is where , if your neck is no straight with the body that you will weaken the shoulder junction.
Consider getting a Warner tool custom FL die with a proper neck/shoulder bushing, so you can still control neck tension/size and size the whole neck including the neck shoulder junction, for your final prep and i highly suspect a lot of the hassle will disappear.
Any trouble with the neck/shoulder junction will disappear, and it will remove any chance of a misaligned neck.
A standard bushing die does usually increase runout compared to a properly honed FL die to begin with, alongside not sizing the whole neck.
As the 'phenomenal' barrel life of your 6,5 saum have just been reduced by having to fireform the brass.
It is also a painful process imo.
It is expensive but when you consider that you can get additional body inserts and neck/shoulder bushings for several calibers it is really not so bad after all.
You will need a 1.25-12 thread to use it though so it will not work with a co-ax press.
But many of the normal single stage presses have the option if you remove the 7/8 inserts.
I do not shoot this cartidge but just a suggestion as it has helped with similar problems for me in the past.
A different solution to the problem, but it does work.
Any trouble with the neck/shoulder junction will disappear, and it will remove any chance of a misaligned neck.
A standard bushing die does usually increase runout compared to a properly honed FL die to begin with, alongside not sizing the whole neck.
As the 'phenomenal' barrel life of your 6,5 saum have just been reduced by having to fireform the brass.
It is also a painful process imo.
It is expensive but when you consider that you can get additional body inserts and neck/shoulder bushings for several calibers it is really not so bad after all.
You will need a 1.25-12 thread to use it though so it will not work with a co-ax press.
But many of the normal single stage presses have the option if you remove the 7/8 inserts.
I do not shoot this cartidge but just a suggestion as it has helped with similar problems for me in the past.
A different solution to the problem, but it does work.
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Anyone done a comparison on primers? Curious as to what people are using. Anyone running F-210m' s, CCI 250's, CCI 200's or BR-2's??? TULA LRM's seem to be rather difficult to find.
Got mine out for the first time today. Just getting on paper and breaking in the barrel/fireforming brass. I threw 61 grains of H1000 under Berger 140 Hybrids into the lands, Fed 215M primers, Norma 7mm SAUM brass. No load development yet but this is what I got. First 3 were in .141" and the last two spoiled it, could have been me. What kind of jump do the Hybrids like?
Do I need to turn the shoulder back more on these rounds?
Also, I am having a hell of a time getting the brass over the turning mandrel. It's once fired 300 RSAUM brass. I am using the .330, to .315, to .305, to .295 bushings the turning then I will use the .291 bushing. What am I doing wrong? Should I get a .297 bushing to turn the necks because it's so hard to get the brass over the neck turning mandrel. I'm using the 6.5 mm mandrels
Also, I am having a hell of a time getting the brass over the turning mandrel. It's once fired 300 RSAUM brass. I am using the .330, to .315, to .305, to .295 bushings the turning then I will use the .291 bushing. What am I doing wrong? Should I get a .297 bushing to turn the necks because it's so hard to get the brass over the neck turning mandrel. I'm using the 6.5 mm mandrels
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Better use some imperial die wax and turn real slow to avoid heat build up.
Mine were a little looser over the mandrel after being expanded than I would have preferred.
Mine were a little looser over the mandrel after being expanded than I would have preferred.
I am using a good amount of wax hoping it would help. Nope. I'm man handling the brass to fit. Maybe I should use a larger bushing, say .298 and neck turn then use the .295 and .291?... not sure
Thanks . Even when I use the .264 expander mandrel it's tough as nails getting it to fit on the .264 turning mandrel
Just thought of something...You are using a Sinclair or K&M expand iron and not a just the expander ball on the die right?
Yep, sorry hadn't read your posts before responding!
Only thing that comes to mind is that you could somehow have an undersized mandrel on the expander?
Or, the mandrel isn't set deep enough to fully expand the length of the neck to consistent .264" ID?
And/or there's a 'donut' inside the case @ neck/shoulder junction that the expander mandrel never hit ?
If that is the case, K&M sells a carbide cutter pilot for their neck turner.
Considering your dilemma, you might consider investing in one to clean up the ID on your necks...
Only thing that comes to mind is that you could somehow have an undersized mandrel on the expander?
Or, the mandrel isn't set deep enough to fully expand the length of the neck to consistent .264" ID?
And/or there's a 'donut' inside the case @ neck/shoulder junction that the expander mandrel never hit ?
If that is the case, K&M sells a carbide cutter pilot for their neck turner.
Considering your dilemma, you might consider investing in one to clean up the ID on your necks...
I'm necking down .300 SAUM brass as well. I have added an annealing step after the 0.295 bushing but before expanding/neck turning. Also, I notice your brass does not appear to have any chamfer on the inside edge. I'm using a K&M with carbide cutting mandrel which I can highly recommend. Good luck and double check the expander and turning mandrel size. Which neck turner are you using and is there anyway you could have inadvertently flip-flopped the turner and expander?
I have the 21st century shooting supplies neck turning lathe. I purchased the expander die in .264 and the neck turning mandrel in.264. With that set up what do i need from K&M because of the donut. Sorry I'm a tad out of it. Just had surgery, I was so board in my recovery bed that I'm doing this. Still out of it a bit.
I have the 21st century shooting supplies neck turning lathe. I purchased the expander die in .264 and the neck turning mandrel in.264. With that set up what do i need from K&M because of the donut. Sorry I'm a tad out of it. Just had surgery, I was so board in my recovery bed that I'm doing this. Still out of it a bit.
I don't know if K&M and 21st Century pilots are compatible (doubtful). However the K&M part is:
https://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-turner-tools/carbide-cutting-pilot.html
You did verify that your expander mandrel has an "E" on it and the turner has a "T", yes?
The linked K&M part is correct.
THe 21st century arbors and mandrels are not directly compatible with K&M, neither is any of the other producers.
If you want a carbide mandrel from K&M to ream the inside of the case neck, John makes a arbor adapter that fits the K&M setup.
As for the expander mandrels 21st century, PMA tool and Sinclair are interchangeable, just K&M that is the oddball.
Arbor Adapter
As a bushing die does not resize the whole neck it might be the culprit for some of your trobules too
THe 21st century arbors and mandrels are not directly compatible with K&M, neither is any of the other producers.
If you want a carbide mandrel from K&M to ream the inside of the case neck, John makes a arbor adapter that fits the K&M setup.
As for the expander mandrels 21st century, PMA tool and Sinclair are interchangeable, just K&M that is the oddball.
Arbor Adapter
As a bushing die does not resize the whole neck it might be the culprit for some of your trobules too
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I have the 21st century shooting supplies neck turning lathe. I purchased the expander die in .264 and the neck turning mandrel in.264. With that set up what do i need from K&M because of the donut. Sorry I'm a tad out of it. Just had surgery, I was so board in my recovery bed that I'm doing this. Still out of it a bit.
I'm using the same set up as you.
First - are you using the expander die and expander mandrel from 21st Century as well?
If so, one mistake I made is not setting the expander die up correctly. You need to make sure your pressing the brass up far enough to make sure the mandrel is getting deep enough to expand properly. If you've already done that and are confident your getting a complete expansion stroke then call and talk to John at 21st Century. He will make you a slightly oversized mandrel to use in the expander die which will correct the problem your having. But first check and make sure your getting the mandrel that you have now deep enough.
Went through this exact same thing. BTW I still use a little imperial sizing was on the turning arbor. Once you get the bugs worked out it's a smooth operation.
Hope that helps.
There's been a lot of discussion about necking down and then neck turning. Wouldn't it be easier to neck turn at the parent cartridge's diameter then neck down. It would completely eliminate the concerns of turning too far into the shoulder. Just neck turn the entire neck only then neck down. The neck will become part of the shoulder when necking down giving the same effect as turning into the shoulder just no confusion of where to stop.
If I turned the necks to .015 from the start with my .30 cal neck turning gear for the .300 Remington SAUM would that eliminate the donut?
Shouldnt have a doughnut issue when necking down. Although it will eliminate the doughnut when necking up as long as the entire neck length is turned. Usually necks will gain some thickness when necking down so you'll have to try one then neck down to see what you have. Definitely worth loading/shooting a few cases to proof it out before doing them all.
The real advantage to turn before necking down in this scenario is not having to guess how far to get into the shoulder but the entire length has to be turned.
Also keep in mind the length should be consistent from case to case as well as shoulder height or it'll be impossible to produce consistent necks.
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Can somebody offer some advice on loading the Hybrids? For breaking in the barrel/fireforming, I loaded the 140 Hybrids into the lands with 61 grains of H1000. The load showed potential even though it was just thrown together to break in the barrel. There were pressure signs. Then I put together some loads to test jumping them .015". No good. I'm seeing signs of pressure (primer flowing into fireing pin hole) from 60 grains up and accuracy is average at best. Using Norma 7mm SAUM brass, Fed 215M primers, in a .2962 .081FB chamber.
How far are you successfully jumping the Hybrids? Anybody else using Norma brass, H1000, and 140 Hybrids? What load and at what point are you seeing pressure?
How far are you successfully jumping the Hybrids? Anybody else using Norma brass, H1000, and 140 Hybrids? What load and at what point are you seeing pressure?
could just be oversized firing pin hole.. Any other pressure signs besides the primer cratering?
My hybrids seem to do better with a bit of jump anyway. Have you tried seating them 28 to 30 thou off the lands? You will probably ditch the pressure and might find more accuracy. My 338 likes them at 28 thou off. I realize were talking apples to oranges but same bullet concept will likely prove to honor the same principle in most calibers. It wouldn't hurt to try a few. My .02.
My load is:
Norma 7 SAUM brass necked and turned for the .2962 chamber
60gr H1000
140 Hybrids (.015 off the lands)
3150 fps verified out to 1150yds .19 -.3 min @ 100yds I have seem stiff bolt lift a couple times but no other signs of pressure, I am going to try seating deeper as Hybrids in my 260 and 338lm like to jump as much as .025-.028
Norma 7 SAUM brass necked and turned for the .2962 chamber
60gr H1000
140 Hybrids (.015 off the lands)
3150 fps verified out to 1150yds .19 -.3 min @ 100yds I have seem stiff bolt lift a couple times but no other signs of pressure, I am going to try seating deeper as Hybrids in my 260 and 338lm like to jump as much as .025-.028
I wonder if .015" neck thickness is too thick. I know a lot of folks do it and seem to get great results but I keep thinking .001" of neck clearance on either side of the neck seems really tight.. It wouldn't take much in the way of measurement error or a little carbon buildup to cut that clearance down to less than .001" pretty easily. If you're not getting any clearance at the neck I'd imagine you would be seeing signs of pressure as well.
That being said, just to clarify were you seeing pressure signs when your hybrids were jammed or when you had them .015" off or both??
Is is your headspace excessive? Measure new brass and a once fired to the shoulder. Not likely if your rifle was built well but excessive headspace can mimick pressure signs.
That being said, just to clarify were you seeing pressure signs when your hybrids were jammed or when you had them .015" off or both??
Is is your headspace excessive? Measure new brass and a once fired to the shoulder. Not likely if your rifle was built well but excessive headspace can mimick pressure signs.
Seeing pressure signs when they are jammed and jumped. Loaded up some tonight starting at 59 through 61 grains and both jammed and jumped .030". Should be able to see how they do tomorrow.
Never had a problem in anything I've loaded with .002'" total clearance, so I don't think that is the issue. Headspace is good. I wonder if the Norma case capacity is just running me into pressure over 60 grains?
Never had a problem in anything I've loaded with .002'" total clearance, so I don't think that is the issue. Headspace is good. I wonder if the Norma case capacity is just running me into pressure over 60 grains?
Tolerance stack... chamber neck a hair tighter, brass a hair thicker, bullet a hair thicker???
Weigh your cases then take 5 cases that are the heaviest, take another thou off the necks and see if the pressure signs stop.
My shop is heated with a wood stove so this winter(cold room and tools) when I turned the necks the first time my ball micrometer was cold and giving bad readings. Found out after the first firing I only had .0075" neck expansion. How I realized the problem was I couldn't push a bullet back into the fired case. I probably didn't have pressure signs because I loaded with 60 grains Retumbo to fireform and have a longer OACL than 6.5 4s.
Weigh your cases then take 5 cases that are the heaviest, take another thou off the necks and see if the pressure signs stop.
My shop is heated with a wood stove so this winter(cold room and tools) when I turned the necks the first time my ball micrometer was cold and giving bad readings. Found out after the first firing I only had .0075" neck expansion. How I realized the problem was I couldn't push a bullet back into the fired case. I probably didn't have pressure signs because I loaded with 60 grains Retumbo to fireform and have a longer OACL than 6.5 4s.
steve123,
I totally agree with you on the neck thickness, I turned mine intitially to .01475 and noticed the same issue on putting a bullet in a fired case, some would go (difficult) but some wouldn't. I have since returned to .0145" use a .291 bushing end up .293" loaded round with .002" tension and this solved the problem.
I totally agree with you on the neck thickness, I turned mine intitially to .01475 and noticed the same issue on putting a bullet in a fired case, some would go (difficult) but some wouldn't. I have since returned to .0145" use a .291 bushing end up .293" loaded round with .002" tension and this solved the problem.
