MosesTheTank, I'll try to get some pics in the near future of the magazine well too. Interesting that you should ask for that. I do remember removing the magazine after firing the gun (the bolt was still closed at this time and had not been opened yet) and all of the remaining bullets (4) just dropped out! They were no longer retained inside the magazine. However, on the outside I didn't see any noticeable damage to the magazine and couldn't understand how they would all fall out in that manner without being cycled through or pushed out by hand.
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Catastrophic Failure
- Thread starter Vrybusy
- Start date
My 300WM is marked .308 because because it's made with a .308 blank. the smith had to stamp 300 WIN MAG. post pics of the area's Moses mentioned
Very interesting, Tactical Precision Rifles Law Enforcement Military, Tactical Precision Rifles Law Enforcement Military seems to have dedicated half of their homepage to a political perspective tailored to induce a feeling of comradeship with gun owners. Other gun companies seem more interested in telling you about their guns.
My guess if it says .308 only is that the rifle is chambered for a .30 cal magnum and someone in the build process did not pay attention to detail. It should have been restamped with the actual cartridge be it a win mag or wsm.
About 7 years ago a similar incident happened to me at a range. Was shooting a FN FAL and after several shots there was a ball of smoke around my face and a stinging as if being hit. The magazine was blown out of the gun and unfolded into a large piece of sheetmetal, the follower, magazine spring were several feet away. The right side of my nose was bleeding, but not to the point where you would seek medical attention. I knew within a minute what the cause was, so I gathered up all the parts and empty cases and went home to make a phone call to the ammunition manufacture. It turns out after examination by the manufacture that the brass case was defected when made, and the case split open in the extractor groove and sending all the gas rearward. The manufacture which I will not mention because shit happens in all makers said there were a few other cases where this happened. In my case there were no doctors or lawyers involved, just a new magazine and a few box's of ammunition. P.S. the bleeding from my nose was from a piece of brass that was able to get past the bolt and top cover which a few days later I noticed and removed.
After looking at your chamber picture, I see threads... more threads than I remember seeing in the action I barreled a few months back. I am wondering if ever thing was set up correctly but then assembled with a lug that was thicker, throwing off the head space by a tenth or more.
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Scary stuff, glad you are okay!
I know you said you want to be "fair and impartial" and are probably waiting for the third party's analysis...but I wanna know the shop that did the barrel work.
And definitely wanna know what the postmortem finds out with regards to the chamber and headspace...
I know you said you want to be "fair and impartial" and are probably waiting for the third party's analysis...but I wanna know the shop that did the barrel work.
And definitely wanna know what the postmortem finds out with regards to the chamber and headspace...
Glad you are doing well and hope you make a full recovery. Please do post follow ups so we know what the culprit was after the third party investigation.
I am going to have to agree with turbo54 here. The chamber of the rifle appears to be COMPLETELY out of specifications. The brass is balled and much wider than a typical .308 Winchester case body. The original poster advised he could not get the bolt open after the event, which points to the chamber being much much bigger than the required minimal width of a .308 Winchester cartridge at .4827 of an inch.
I would argue against an obstruction within the barrel. The only thing left in the bore, chamber and barrel is the rest of the .308 Winchester casing. The bullet exited the firearm. Should there have been an obstruction, I would believe that the object would still be in the barrel. Also, the original poster advised he checked the barrel to ensure it was clear. The original poster also appears to be a knowledgable and competent shooter using factory specified ammunition.
Vrybusy,
I am so sorry this happened. I have never had anything like that happen to me. I always wear eye protection also and reading this made me remember why I do.
If you do not mind me asking, is your vision okay? You say that the face took the brunt of the force, but is your eye okay? I hope it is an I hope you heal as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, we are very interested to find out what happened and there are a lot of VERY knowledgable people on here who can help you get to the bottom of it. Please keep us posted and thank you for sharing this with us.
The same exact same thing happened to me when I was test firing another rifle built by another shop. I would guess they made a simple mistake of reading the depth mic incorrectly because after further inspection, the chamber headspaced "OK" but the the barrel tenon was .100" too short. This is what a case looks like with .100" less case support. It was Corbon Performance match .260 ammo with the 139.
I was lucky enough to have been wearing eye protection, however I was not wearing hearing protection because I was suppressed. Ears still ring and probably will the rest of my life.
Mark
I was lucky enough to have been wearing eye protection, however I was not wearing hearing protection because I was suppressed. Ears still ring and probably will the rest of my life.
Mark
I guess the thing I am wondering is if the shop that built the "accident gun" ACTUALLY test fired it after the build was complete....something that a LOT of custom shops do, but apparently some don't...... My guess is that they did NOT. Second thing(s) I am wondering about (and this has been fairly thoroughly spoken of in this thread already) is what chamber was actually cut in the barrel and what/how/why the barrel didn't get stamped as to exactly what cartridge it was chambered for seeing as how ".308", while it IS a bore size, could be .308 Winchester, 300 Win Mag, 30-06 and many, many others.....The BLANK would have been ".308"...yes...BUT!?!?!?!?!?
I want to recommend some quite interesting reading to you guys that goes quite a bit into the headspace/overcharges/testing/blown up guns stuff, though a lot of it is QUITE dated and is pretty much all military related. The book is HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK and it was written by Major General (retired) Julian Hatcher. He was an ordnance guy involved in pretty much any and all phases/operations connected to the design/testing/evaluation and production of firearms for the military (Army mostly) There are a lot of sections of the book that are pretty much no longer pertinent to what we do now days (though it does lend a good bit of background information as to WHY we have what we have and WHY we do what we do now days), but there is a good bit of testing and accident investigation stuff that still bears on our guns TODAY. Some of the book is best skipped over, but there is a lot of good reading and some excellent pictures. General Hatcher is also a BIG fan of wearing eye protection....mentions it more than several times in the book..... and I will admit that I have gotten lax about that, too.....THOUGH I am NOW (after reading his book and then reading this thread, ESPECIALLY) making sure that I have glasses on when firing ANYTHING!!
I, too, will be quite interested to see what the outcome of this is...cause, what the custom shop has to say, etc........
I want to recommend some quite interesting reading to you guys that goes quite a bit into the headspace/overcharges/testing/blown up guns stuff, though a lot of it is QUITE dated and is pretty much all military related. The book is HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK and it was written by Major General (retired) Julian Hatcher. He was an ordnance guy involved in pretty much any and all phases/operations connected to the design/testing/evaluation and production of firearms for the military (Army mostly) There are a lot of sections of the book that are pretty much no longer pertinent to what we do now days (though it does lend a good bit of background information as to WHY we have what we have and WHY we do what we do now days), but there is a good bit of testing and accident investigation stuff that still bears on our guns TODAY. Some of the book is best skipped over, but there is a lot of good reading and some excellent pictures. General Hatcher is also a BIG fan of wearing eye protection....mentions it more than several times in the book..... and I will admit that I have gotten lax about that, too.....THOUGH I am NOW (after reading his book and then reading this thread, ESPECIALLY) making sure that I have glasses on when firing ANYTHING!!
I, too, will be quite interested to see what the outcome of this is...cause, what the custom shop has to say, etc........
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Isn't it likely that the pressure blew out the case before anything could happen to the primer?
Thank The Lord you are ok and are able to walk away from that! If it was me I'd out the shop who built it to potentially avoid this from happening to someone else!
Yes.
I was insinuating that bad/overpressure ammunition was likely *not* the culprit in this failure scenario.
In a perfect world, he should absolutely be able to name them. However, we don't live in a perfect world.
It's possible if he names the shop, they'll get butt-hurt and claim he's slandering them, and refuse to rebuild/repair the rifle.
It is wise to avoid litigation whenever possible. Anytime you enter the justice system you're rolling the dice, regardless of how bankvault-tight a case you think you've got.
Sad, but true.
The OP is working wisely with the shitty hand he was dealt.
Not to mention that the OP should have ABSOLUTELY UNDENIABLE PROOF that the shop that built it screwed up IF THEY DID before any legal action is taken, much less naming them. If the OP does wind up taking legal action and wins the case, he is likely safe then and even then nothing is for sure in today's litigious world. Until way more is known about this whole deal, the OP would be exposing himself to a multitude of problems economically and legally if he named/accused the shop at this point. Not to mention that if the shop gets named and it turns out that they DIDN'T screw up, getting just the "stink" off of them would be nearly impossible given how fast information (whether it be good/correct or bad/wrong) travels now days and in how many places it will get to.........
Turbo, this is where I disagree with you. If he simply explains what happened in a factual manner he cannot be held for libel or slander, in any court. Follow some of the other threads regarding poor workmanship. Nothing happened to those posters. In fact, Frank here is very resistant to any threats to himself, the forum, or the members. He pretty much tells the parties seeking action for libel or slander to go screw themselves. In fact, one manufacturer threatened him and he responded appropriately.
Original poster, please feel free, without prosecution from us or the company, divulge who the manufacturer of your rifle is. Other posters want to know so they can protect themselves from possible faulty workmanship. The best thing to do is to know the facts from all angles in this matter. I would not bad mouth any company. I would only show my friends, relative and the community the truth and let them come to their own judgments and conclusions.
I would contact the manufacturer and let them make it right. Mistakes happen, even if you are very good at something - you do enough volume and the math just works against you. What makes a good business withstand the test of time is how they deal with mistakes.
It would be quite interesting if the builder was the same in both cases. You should PM each other to see.The same exact same thing happened to me when I was test firing another rifle built by another shop. I would guess they made a simple mistake of reading the depth mic incorrectly because after further inspection, the chamber headspaced "OK" but the the barrel tenon was .100" too short. This is what a case looks like with .100" less case support. It was Corbon Performance match .260 ammo with the 139.
I was lucky enough to have been wearing eye protection, however I was not wearing hearing protection because I was suppressed. Ears still ring and probably will the rest of my life.
Mark
This is it^^^
Mistakes happen. Give whoever is at fault a chance to make it right.
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Vrybusy,
It sounds to me like you are already getting your ducks in a row. Although you didn't ask, my $0.02 is that you're only asking a question and responding to questions that me and others have put forward. Let the pics speak for themselves.
It sounds to me like you are already getting your ducks in a row. Although you didn't ask, my $0.02 is that you're only asking a question and responding to questions that me and others have put forward. Let the pics speak for themselves.
Im sure it's been said but in looking at the case I think it's either the chamber was cut too large for another round or the barrel was not set back far enough. So here goes another piece of speculation/theory. As the case is just sheered and blown outward it looks like the bolt face/head space was not accurately set at all. Perhaps it's cut for a 308 winchester but the barrel is not screwed in all the way to the action thus leaving space between the bolt face and chamber.
So the scenario goes like this. You close the bolt with round in breech, it goes in easy because the round is not fully seated. lugs lock but there is several MM or even a CM of case that is unsupported/exposed. You pull the trigger and the unsupported rear of the case sheers and mushrooms against/around the bolt face. The rear of the case is the thickets part and for reason, it's supposed to expand the least.
You can now take some calipers and measure the diameter of the case and see what size it expanded into. If it was a case of this being a chamber cut for a different size then your newly fire formed brass will be roughly that size now so thus expanded into that shape. If it's still closely the size of your non fired 308 rounds then the chamber was cut as a 308 Win.
Im not a gunsmith but knowing what I know and see this theory makes sense to me.
So the scenario goes like this. You close the bolt with round in breech, it goes in easy because the round is not fully seated. lugs lock but there is several MM or even a CM of case that is unsupported/exposed. You pull the trigger and the unsupported rear of the case sheers and mushrooms against/around the bolt face. The rear of the case is the thickets part and for reason, it's supposed to expand the least.
You can now take some calipers and measure the diameter of the case and see what size it expanded into. If it was a case of this being a chamber cut for a different size then your newly fire formed brass will be roughly that size now so thus expanded into that shape. If it's still closely the size of your non fired 308 rounds then the chamber was cut as a 308 Win.
Im not a gunsmith but knowing what I know and see this theory makes sense to me.
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I agree 100%! I totally understand that mistakes do happen but when it comes to something that can kill someone, mistakes shouldn't happen! Every builder should test fire to make sure everything is working correctly. I'm no pro gunsmith but I do a lot of accurizing on rimfires and when I'm done I always run a box of match ammo down the pipe to make sure everything is working properly and that it meets my accuracy standards.
Repeated for clarity, and truth.
Legal ramifications aside, I'd sure love to hear the shop's name. That tired excuse of "mistakes happen" kinda loses its effectiveness when someone suffers personal injury.
OP- I am glad you are OK.
I was standing 2 feet away from an RRA AR15 that blew up with an overpressure load. The mag floorplate blew out the bottom, the carrier, upper, ad barrel extension split. Scary crap. My face was peppered with metal, glad I was wearing eye protection.
I'm guessing unsupported case.
I was standing 2 feet away from an RRA AR15 that blew up with an overpressure load. The mag floorplate blew out the bottom, the carrier, upper, ad barrel extension split. Scary crap. My face was peppered with metal, glad I was wearing eye protection.
I'm guessing unsupported case.
Mgordon, although the remaining portion of the casing is still in the rifle, the rear portion that "fell out" looks nearly identical to the pics you have posted! Even the slight bend/curve on one side.
Dondlhmn, I'll be looking in to the reading material you mention. It's never too late to learn and I'm sure I'll pick a few things up that will help. Thanks for the advice.
MoBoost, I agree with your post when you say contact the manufacturer and offer them the chance to make it right. I also understand that mistakes happen. There is now an uninvolved third party (at least one) who will handle the contacts with both the rifle manufacturer and ammunition company and handle things moving forward.
I certainly am not trying to "lay blame" at this time. I feel the best thing to do is to determine the cause of the malfunction and make sure that this does not happen to anyone else - ever! Everyone here has been EXTREMELY helpful, and I promise, when I'm able to I will absolutely reveal the manufacturer of both the rifle and ammunition; regardless of what is determined to be the cause. As much as possible I will also post what they, either the rifle or ammunition company has for a response(s).
Someone asked earlier if I received a test target for the rifle - NO. I did not receive the "test target" that they said was enclosed with the rifle nor did I receive a shell casing as some manufactures supply. Although, when I checked the barrel prior to firing the gun, the barrel was "dirty." Not obstructed, but it appeared that it had been shot prior to me receiving the rifle.
Dondlhmn, I'll be looking in to the reading material you mention. It's never too late to learn and I'm sure I'll pick a few things up that will help. Thanks for the advice.
MoBoost, I agree with your post when you say contact the manufacturer and offer them the chance to make it right. I also understand that mistakes happen. There is now an uninvolved third party (at least one) who will handle the contacts with both the rifle manufacturer and ammunition company and handle things moving forward.
I certainly am not trying to "lay blame" at this time. I feel the best thing to do is to determine the cause of the malfunction and make sure that this does not happen to anyone else - ever! Everyone here has been EXTREMELY helpful, and I promise, when I'm able to I will absolutely reveal the manufacturer of both the rifle and ammunition; regardless of what is determined to be the cause. As much as possible I will also post what they, either the rifle or ammunition company has for a response(s).
Someone asked earlier if I received a test target for the rifle - NO. I did not receive the "test target" that they said was enclosed with the rifle nor did I receive a shell casing as some manufactures supply. Although, when I checked the barrel prior to firing the gun, the barrel was "dirty." Not obstructed, but it appeared that it had been shot prior to me receiving the rifle.
Without seeing the front half the case, its hard to say. I dont think its an ammuntion /pressure problem. I feel its an unsupported case issue; either short tenon, extremely excessive counterbore, or wrong lug during final assembly. In any of those scenarios, it concerns me that the builder didn't catch it. Measurement oddity on the first two and a simple headspace check on the last.
I have 2 and neither came with it. The latest from PCR didn't come with it but I spoke with the the guys there quite a few times and they did shoot it as well as me telling them to shoot the shit out of it to make sure it does what we want.
Just from hearing what happened I don't think this was the cartridge unless the wrong cartridge was used (i.e. 300 win mag, etc) but getting one to chamber in a regular 308WIN would be hard at best. Sounds to me that, assuming it was test fired by the fouling present, something moved or 'came loose' between them and you shooting it or something stupid was done like head spacing it for a certain specific load/round and then your Federal round was outside of head space spec, etc.
Just a guess right now.
Just checking. I've always used an unknown-ish gunsmith. He doesn't provide test targets, but he guarantees his firearms to hit a certain accuracy level. If it doesn't than he takes it back on his dime and figures things out. Totally off topic, but I just wanted to state the reasoning for my question.
As others have stated, it definitely appears to be an unsupported case issue.
As others have stated, it definitely appears to be an unsupported case issue.
This above and beyond sucks major dick. To the OP, glad you're ok. Hopefully you have no long term damage to your ugly mug!
As a consumer this bothers the shit out of me. I just purchased a brand new AI AE. I have yet to fire it. Don't think this won't be in the back of my mind when I line up to take the first shots. I do realize that mistakes happen, and that not all gunsmiths are the same. I didn't think twice about it the first time I shot my APA rifle. It had been shot, I had the test target to prove it. Keep us posted as to what you find out from the ammo manufacturer (which i doubt was the issue) or the gunsmith (the more likely cause). As consumers, we should know who sold you the firearm. I understand if you don't wanna post that up till after your situation is resolved 100%
As a consumer this bothers the shit out of me. I just purchased a brand new AI AE. I have yet to fire it. Don't think this won't be in the back of my mind when I line up to take the first shots. I do realize that mistakes happen, and that not all gunsmiths are the same. I didn't think twice about it the first time I shot my APA rifle. It had been shot, I had the test target to prove it. Keep us posted as to what you find out from the ammo manufacturer (which i doubt was the issue) or the gunsmith (the more likely cause). As consumers, we should know who sold you the firearm. I understand if you don't wanna post that up till after your situation is resolved 100%
