Catastrophic Failure

#301
[MENTION=87531]jashmore1234[/MENTION] using a nogo gauge won’t tell us much and if you’re a Remington owner and like your rifle don’t try one in it either cause the chances are very high it’s going to close with little to no resistance on that nogo as well... the up side is none I have come across yet will close on a field gauge. After shooting several thousand rounds in R700 308’s and 308 parent case Remington’s I bought a 3 gauge kit for a self build I was doing and was a little surprised that every R700 I have failed the nogo gauge and had I not had all those rounds down range I would have been very concerned.

Here, I still think it’s going to be a case where it was built for one size of recoil lug and a thicker one was used in final assembly or as 300sniper said “from too deep of counterbore or short tenon”.
 
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#304
Wow. Scary stuff for sure.

OP, welcome to the Hide. Glad you are mostly okay. Could have ended very badly for you. I give you a lot of credit for the way you are handling this too. We all look forward to more information when you are able to share.

I think most shops test a round or two at least in a snail trap. I can't imagine building a rifle and not doing that. We also document exactly what test ammo we used. What we don't do though is save the particular cartridge(s) we fired. It might not be a bad idea to store the cartridge(s) in a little zip lock baggie with the action serial number written on it. Maybe save them a year or so. Or, just include with the rifle. Guess I should start asking customers if they'd want the cartridge case(s).

OP, thanks for sharing. Please keep us posted.

Mark
 
#305
A older guy once told me who builds rifles said to take and do this to a brand new rifle. First place the rifle in a rest and then load it and use a stick or a piece of string to pull trigger. You are doing this for safety, just for the first shot on your brand new rifle. Basically you do not want to be holding the rifle on the first shot. He stated if it is going to happen, it should be on the first shot.
 
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#306
Vrybusy,
I am vryhappy that you survived this experience without any (hopefully) long term injury. Thank you for posting this. Maybe it will serve as a reminder to all of us the importance of wearing shooting glasses. Not only for shooters but for any close-up spectators as well.
 
#308
After I was first injured I went back to school and ended up an insurance agent for about 5 years. I had about $50,000 in education on just the subject of liability. Every kind of liability. I sold multi lines including car, house, business, work comp, life, health, long term disability, farm and crop insurance. Even event liability for race tracks. I learned a lot about liability. It was fun and paid well but my passion always manufacturing so when I got the chance I went gunsmithing for myself instead of welding and machining or back to being a millwrite. In my experience, any defect in craftsmanship claim, the craftsman must be given the chance to fix it or you collect zip. What more do you want?

A fatty personal injury award? It must be. Otherwise you would have had that rifle returned and fixed by now. The sooner you retain an attorney the better. One that knows about firearms. You will need to be prepared for a vigorous cross examination. Just a few obvious questions pop to mind they are going to ask you to prove. Can you prove this is the rifle that hurt you? Do you have the names of unbiased witnesses who can swear this is the same rifle that you were shooting when the incident occurred? Was it the only firearm you fired that day? Don't forget to ask your attorney what happens if they countersue.

A reasonable person would find the plaintiff was also partially responsible for said injury if he did not use proper safety equipment. Were you wearing shooting rated safety glasses? Were they worn correctly? Pushed back and seated tight on both ears? Of course you have unbiased witnesses to attest to this. Have they been inspected by a neutral third party? Were the removed particles tested to see if they were actually brass and powder residue or simply wind blown silica and other soil? Are you expected to need further treatment?

Has the rest of the ammo been preserved. It will come into question. They will need to be torn down by a reputable ballistic laboratory and checked to be sure this was not defective brass or overloaded. If was commercial reloads it could have been full length sized and caused a head separation. They will need to be named in the suit so in case they share some liability they can be judged. Otherwise you will have to sue them separately.

Expert witnesses are going to be needed. Here is one I would ask your attorney to call. Bob has actual experience and is recognized as an expert with this type situation and his rates are very reasonable.

PISCO - Expert Witness Work

I wonder how much dirt in the eye is worth now days?
 
#309
BookHound said:
I think most shops test a round or two at least in a snail trap.

Mark
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this. In the past people have argued that test firing may be impossible if you don't have a range on site, but I've pointed out that when Bill Ritchie and EDM were in an industrial park in SoCal they still tested .50 BMGs with snail traps. So it is possible. Perhaps not everyone thinks it is worth it. I would suggest that one good lawsuit would change that opinion.
 
#310
NevadaZielmeister said:
Turbo, this is where I disagree with you. If he simply explains what happened in a factual manner he cannot be held for libel or slander, in any court. Follow some of the other threads regarding poor workmanship. Nothing happened to those posters. In fact, Frank here is very resistant to any threats to himself, the forum, or the members. He pretty much tells the parties seeking action for libel or slander to go screw themselves. In fact, one manufacturer threatened him and he responded appropriately.

Original poster, please feel free, without prosecution from us or the company, divulge who the manufacturer of your rifle is. Other posters want to know so they can protect themselves from possible faulty workmanship. The best thing to do is to know the facts from all angles in this matter. I would not bad mouth any company. I would only show my friends, relative and the community the truth and let them come to their own judgments and conclusions.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you haven't read:
http://fd-defense.com/files/Hall_vs_LWRCI_Second_Amended_Petition.pdf
 
#311
Over pressure

Note the primer is flattened, definite over pressure. Now was it ammo or the head space was bad and caused the issue? Glad your not seriously hurt.
 
#313
Cartman said:
Perhaps you haven't read:
http://fd-defense.com/files/Hall_vs_LWRCI_Second_Amended_Petition.pdf
Click to expand...

No, I have not read that case. Thank you for providing a link for everyone to review. In Corby Hall vs. LWRC International and Brad Selph, you have only provided the plaintiff's second amended complaint. I am not sure what your point is?

Anyone can sue anyone. That is the society we live in. But divulging the maker of the product to alert others of a possible safety issue is not actionable. Someone bringing a frivolous lawsuit can sometimes have it backfire and suffer damages at the hands of the defendant, in the form of costs and attorney's fees.

But the OP is handling this his way and we should relent and allow him to tell his story. I await patiently to find out the ultimate outcome of this matter. I am still glad that he is okay. It could have been worse.
 
#314
NevadaZielmeister said:
No, I have not read that case. Thank you for providing a link for everyone to review. In Corby Hall vs. LWRC International and Brad Selph, you have only provided the plaintiff's second amended complaint. I am not sure what your point is?

Anyone can sue anyone. That is the society we live in. But divulging the maker of the product to alert others of a possible safety issue is not actionable. Someone bringing a frivolous lawsuit can sometimes have it backfire and suffer damages at the hands of the defendant, in the form of costs and attorney's fees.

But the OP is handling this his way and we should relent and allow him to tell his story. I await patiently to find out the ultimate outcome of this matter. I am still glad that he is okay. It could have been worse.
Click to expand...

If you've read your own posts and the complaint, and still don't understand my point, it's unlikely you'll be capable of understanding any explanation. If you're an attorney, I suggest you reconsider giving legal advice to strangers on the internet. If you're not an attorney...

And really Zeilmeister, I'm not looking to pick on you. But laypeople always seem to talk about lawsuits with notions of fair play, reasonableness, common sense, and right, wrong, and justice, in their heads. But reality is often something else altogether. And, importantly, win or lose, it is often the process itself that is the punishment.
 
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#315
Where did the OP ever say anything about a lawsuit?

He did say he was going to have the rifle inspected by a third party. And if there is any concern about the smith owning up to things, I would also do this. Just in case the smith tried to blame it on ammunition or other causes.
 
#316
Cartman said:
If you've read your own posts and the complaint, and still don't understand my point, it's unlikely you'll be capable of understanding any explanation. If you're an attorney, I suggest you reconsider giving legal advice to strangers on the internet. If you're not an attorney...

And really Zeilmeister, I'm not looking to pick on you. But laypeople always seem to talk about lawsuits with notions of fair play, reasonableness, common sense, and right, wrong, and justice, in their heads. But reality is often something else altogether. And, importantly, win or lose, it is often the process itself that is the punishment.
Click to expand...

Cartman, I do not ever assume I know what point someone is making. For me to guess is downright dangerous. I let people come to their own conclusions. I am not giving out legal advise. I never would pretend to also. Just some simple facts that people can share and use, if need be. But I do want to understand your point in the complaint you shared with us. I am curious, really.

I have managed over 100 trials and thousands of lawsuits. You are correct. People go into a lawsuit are thinking of the notions you describe (reasonableness, right, wrong, justice, etc.) and when they come out they are tired, upset and deflated. Sometimes both sides feel this way. Meanwhile, the attorneys are that much richer.
 
#318
Speaking of tr.net rifles, there is a member from my rifle club that after he received his custom build after 2.5 years wait experienced sporadic FTF's. I told him to stop by my shop when he was finished sighting it in so I could look at his bolt. Turned out to be a weak firing pin spring, but just out of curiosity I checked his head space and the bolt closed on the no go. I emailed this company asking if they check head space before moving on to another phase of the build and got no response The rifle is chambered for 308 Win..
 
#321
Ljutic SS said:
Speaking of tr.net rifles, there is a member from my rifle club that after he received his custom build after 2.5 years wait experienced sporadic FTF's. I told him to stop by my shop when he was finished sighting it in so I could look at his bolt. Turned out to be a weak firing pin spring, but just out of curiosity I checked his head space and the bolt closed on the no go. I emailed this company asking if they check head space before moving on to another phase of the build and got no response The rifle is chambered for 308 Win..
Click to expand...

Your post was somewhat unclear - this WAS a TRN rifle?
 
#322
Vrybusy said:
Quick update for everyone.

The manufacturer has been contacted via phone. The conversation went as expected;"....send us the rifle and we'll diagnose the problem," "hope he's doing ok....." Also, the company rep stated that the gun was test fired prior to leaving their facility. However, when presented with a few "reasons" why it is believed that it didn't happen, apparently the individual became very silent on the phone. Just an interesting point.

They (manufacturer) were offered to be present when the rifle is looked at by an independent third party. This was a suggestion by one of the members here, and a good one at that (Thanks!). I'm not sure that will happen but at least it is an option that all parties are considering and open to. For the next step, the manufacturer will be sent via mail and email an actual documented outline of the incident.

The gun should be looked at by an independent third party in the near future. I don't know how long that will take as I think a decision still has to be made as to who is qualified to examine the rifle, and then who to actually send it to. If anyone has suggestions in that area, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
Click to expand...

Vrybusy,

Do you have an update for us at all? Your last comment on 1/19/14 indicates that you were working with the manufacturer. Did they resolve everything for you? Are you allowed to comment on the outcome and the problems? Are you allowed or are you inclined to comment on which manufacturer(s)?

We are all curious, not only for our curiosity, but also our own concerns over safety. None of us would want that to happen to us. Any comments and help would be appreciated.
 
#333
Mgordon said:
The same exact same thing happened to me when I was test firing another rifle built by another shop. I would guess they made a simple mistake of reading the depth mic incorrectly because after further inspection, the chamber headspaced "OK" but the the barrel tenon was .100" too short. This is what a case looks like with .100" less case support. It was Corbon Performance match .260 ammo with the 139.

I was lucky enough to have been wearing eye protection, however I was not wearing hearing protection because I was suppressed. Ears still ring and probably will the rest of my life.

Mark



Click to expand...



This was my guess
 
#334
Vrybusy said:
I've mentioned it in some PM's to others, but it's bothering me as much if not more than others about putting out all of the information. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
anyone PM w/OP? Talked a great game about following up with full disclosure 7 months ago. There were a few guys who smelled shit and called it.

Yo bender: vryshtty
Fixed it
 
#336
Not even "hey guys I know I promised to eventually share the info with you but I'm still unable to do so. I will post another update next year"? That is a serious gag order.

If we assume op is legit, that suggests the builder has a pristine rep (highly recommended by legit associates and earned the confidence of a legit op with their rep).

So then we have a highly sought after manufacturer with a potential issue but no public awareness or recall, 8 months after op's issue. If nothing else that erodes the credibility of the stated main priority...making sure it doesn't happen to anyone else.

It's just interesting to see who had instincts that this guy was not totally what he claimed...posts 245-299 from folks like
downzero
Datec
Bogeybrown
Jesse sb
Redneckbmxer
Nfoley
Redirt78
Culpepper
Straightshooter

measured posts that detected something awry with the thread and the OPs message.
 
#337
There are plenty of problems with this narrative. To begin with BogeyBrowns observation that the flow of the story does not coincide with the stated purpose is a big red flag. In spite of the fact that we see visual evidence that something went very wrong, with some rifle, at some point in time, I am questioning the motive here. The OP stated that he wanted to start with getting advice from the Hide. However, the the rifle was already secured (as of 1/2/14, the opening post being on 1/1/14) and the pic of the mushroomed case was taken over a week earlier on 12/23/13. He obviously started somewhere else. Then there are the myriad details about the rifle he was recalling from memory, the claim that the rifle was researched prior to purchase (getting advice from "precision shooters"), but he seems to have absolutely no idea on what kind of action it is built. There are many others but I think that's enough to get my spidey sense tingling.

If he is has filed a lawsuit it seems to be pretty well hidden. I do stand ready to be corrected in my suspicions.
 
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