I believe the question was "does every custom rig ship with a test target?" And they don't.
You may be correct.
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Catastrophic Failure
- Thread starter Vrybusy
- Start date
I believe the question was "does every custom rig ship with a test target?" And they don't.
You may be correct.
You have to test fire because you don't know what you're doing on a lathe. If you were "confident in your abilities" there would never be a need to test fire your work
D
Deleted member 10043
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There is no legislation by lawmakers that say a trigger has to be 7 pounds. That comes from lawyers advising manufacturers. It's about liability as a result of other lawyers arguing against manufacturers in court. That shit you smell is lawyers.
Worth saying again!
Vrybusy,
First off, glad you weren't hurt worse.
Have you contacted the builder yet? If not, please tell us it is at the advise of legal council. Are you withholding the builders identity for fear of slander (libel actually)? The best defense against libel is the truth. The rifle was NOT right!
I would think your motives to prevent similar CF's would drive you to name drop to protect/warn others who are shooting one of these rifles.
Again, why withhold the builder and the fact that you were shooting Federal ammo? You wouldn't even name the ammo you were using, then you posted pics with the head stamp.
Help me (us) understand.
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And most of our tort doctrines are centuries old and came from England--predating every American law school. What's your point? The idea that we have "too much litigation" is obvious nonsense to anyone who has reviewed the facts.
I think your position is one that I find reasonable, I just don't share it.
In fact, the biggest bunch of BS is that he's not naming the builder, in my view. If I almost lost my eye because a gunsmith effed up, I'd want his head on a platter. You bet I'd name his name--here and everywhere--after I got done typing the complaint.
No argument on that. I've gone on the premise that he's not saying shit because of some legal aspect or another: either he's scared of slander/libel (unlikely in my opinion) or from the get go he's had an eye towards future legal proceedings (more likely in my opinion).
I think I'm missing something that you're seeing. Help me out with the scenario you're getting from this?
I guess that's what I'm missing. If you're of the mind that he or a buddy assembled this thing themselves, then from my perspective if it were me, I'd STFU about my own stupidity and not say a word, much less start a thread.
I'd asked the OP earlier what his experience had been with the smith during the build but didn't get a response. To me his dealings prior to the CF are very important in that if the builder was a good guy through the build process he should have been contacted right off the bat. If the builder was a d-bag then I could sort of see not cluing him in right away.
As an example, if say GAP or Spartan had built me a rifle and it blew up in my face, my first contact would have been with THEM and I'm confident that George or Marc would have made this right with no issues. I never would have even mentioned it in an open forum.
If, on the other hand, Tacticalrifles.net had built this thing for me, with what I've come to learn about Asshat Rooney, the first he heard about it would have been a metric shit-ton of legal proceedings.
For whatever reason, I haven't gotten a weird vibe from the OP, so I've been searching for reasonable explanations for the lack of information.
Whatever the circumstances, the OP made the issue public, then refused to follow-up with information. To me there should have either been no post at all, or a post with the relevant information. As it is he's basically clapping with one hand.
Clearly history and geography aren't your strong subjects. Pretty much everyone other than the US has some form of "proof" certification so that people don't end up with dangerous junk.
You are right...I have seen the error of my ways...once more the Brits have saved America's bacon...once more a brilliant bureaucracy has saved its stupid citizens from themselves...
Eta: upon further reflection , I owe you and your countrymen a debt of gratitude...after all, but for England, we would not have the Second Amendment.
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So you think that a proof certificate would have protected the OP if the rifle was chambered in the wrong caliber?
So the OP still has not contacted the builder to at least document the event with them and notify them a third party is looking at it? I would have at least sent a letter via certified mail to the smith before the third party took possession and logged it in just to inform them and have proof they were informed. This smells a bit.
Yeah I'm with you. At this point, If I'm the builder, and the OP contacts me NOW and says ' your rifle blew up in my face a few weeks ago, I've sent it to a 3rd party to be checked out and photographed, and I've started a thread on Snipers Hide about the incident, just thought I'd let you know' then I would probably lose my shit.
I'm pretty certain any reputable builder would appreciate the COURTESY of being informed that there was a catastrophic failure resulting in injury from one of their rifles. I started out with a great deal of empathy for the OP, which has gradually eroded, not by the facts of the incident but by the way it's been handled.
I apologize for the delay in responding to the posts, and the length of this one, but I’ll do my best to update those concerned and answer questions.
I do this because there are several people on the site who have provided me with invaluable information and insight on the cause/issue. For that I thank everyone! I’m not responding because “some” people smell bullshit or want instant answers/action and “heads to roll.” Or others state that some people shouldn’t have guns – although I completely agree they should know their audience before they make insinuations or direct it towards specific people.
DATEC – The mention of the bore sight was somewhat facetious. Although, after doing a hasty “field expedient” check to see if the bore matched the crosshairs (or was close), I certainly was surprised when the bullet impacted very near the intended point of aim. As I wrote in the beginning of the thread you will see that I’ve lurked here several times before, but not as a registered member. I’ve never felt the need to bother anyone or be an active member. Not that I don’t think I can contribute, I simply do not have the time (hence my screen name). With this incident however, I felt it was best to solicit some information in order to help me understand what occurred. From prior experience, I was impressed with the knowledge of what members have posted in the past. I can certainly understand why some may smell $hit, however, you have to start somewhere – I chose here. That being said, obviously this forum is not my only source of information gathering. I just thought it would be prudent to hear from some of the members. The responses have been very beneficial!
JesseSB you asked about why post pics of ammo and not name the company? Well quite frankly, I’m not sure you can 100% ID the source of the ammo from the head stamp. Maybe you can, maybe not. However, it’s been my intention not to directly accuse anyone of anything until the problem is diagnosed. I also did not want to identify any company as to get the most genuine, non-emotional, non-biased response possible without turning this thread into a “Manufacturer Bashing” thread. As I said earlier I will post the findings/results if people are still interested when I know.
Bogeybrown – I must have missed your question about prior experience with the gun builder. I have had no prior personal experience with the company. A while ago while researching to have a custom rifle built, I was directed to the company by others with great things to say about them. That was reinforced with recommendations from a completely different set of people in the industry (precision shooters) who I personally spoke with. Really, that’s it, some online reading and a few recommendations. Concerning your empathy comment – Thanks however, I’m really not looking for any empathy or consideration otherwise. I’m simply on a fact finding mission, if you will. I’m sure the builder would appreciate notification. However there are several other factors involved here. Not trying to be cryptic, but there are other “stakeholders” involved in this and that it’s not completely up to me. I agree there may be better ways to go about the issue, probably several ways to go about it. But it’s not all up to me.
Progress: The pics of the rifle, ammo, etc… everything, have been taken. Thanks to those who suggested what pics to take. Apparently the suggestions were helpful! I’m really trying to stay out of it (directly) as much as possible and am relying on information that is given to me. I do know that the manufacturer of one of the parts of the rifle has been contacted and has been very helpful in every way. I know it seems like slow progress to me, but its progress nonetheless. Thanks for everyone’s input on the threads, and PM’s I truly appreciate it.
I do this because there are several people on the site who have provided me with invaluable information and insight on the cause/issue. For that I thank everyone! I’m not responding because “some” people smell bullshit or want instant answers/action and “heads to roll.” Or others state that some people shouldn’t have guns – although I completely agree they should know their audience before they make insinuations or direct it towards specific people.
DATEC – The mention of the bore sight was somewhat facetious. Although, after doing a hasty “field expedient” check to see if the bore matched the crosshairs (or was close), I certainly was surprised when the bullet impacted very near the intended point of aim. As I wrote in the beginning of the thread you will see that I’ve lurked here several times before, but not as a registered member. I’ve never felt the need to bother anyone or be an active member. Not that I don’t think I can contribute, I simply do not have the time (hence my screen name). With this incident however, I felt it was best to solicit some information in order to help me understand what occurred. From prior experience, I was impressed with the knowledge of what members have posted in the past. I can certainly understand why some may smell $hit, however, you have to start somewhere – I chose here. That being said, obviously this forum is not my only source of information gathering. I just thought it would be prudent to hear from some of the members. The responses have been very beneficial!
JesseSB you asked about why post pics of ammo and not name the company? Well quite frankly, I’m not sure you can 100% ID the source of the ammo from the head stamp. Maybe you can, maybe not. However, it’s been my intention not to directly accuse anyone of anything until the problem is diagnosed. I also did not want to identify any company as to get the most genuine, non-emotional, non-biased response possible without turning this thread into a “Manufacturer Bashing” thread. As I said earlier I will post the findings/results if people are still interested when I know.
Bogeybrown – I must have missed your question about prior experience with the gun builder. I have had no prior personal experience with the company. A while ago while researching to have a custom rifle built, I was directed to the company by others with great things to say about them. That was reinforced with recommendations from a completely different set of people in the industry (precision shooters) who I personally spoke with. Really, that’s it, some online reading and a few recommendations. Concerning your empathy comment – Thanks however, I’m really not looking for any empathy or consideration otherwise. I’m simply on a fact finding mission, if you will. I’m sure the builder would appreciate notification. However there are several other factors involved here. Not trying to be cryptic, but there are other “stakeholders” involved in this and that it’s not completely up to me. I agree there may be better ways to go about the issue, probably several ways to go about it. But it’s not all up to me.
Progress: The pics of the rifle, ammo, etc… everything, have been taken. Thanks to those who suggested what pics to take. Apparently the suggestions were helpful! I’m really trying to stay out of it (directly) as much as possible and am relying on information that is given to me. I do know that the manufacturer of one of the parts of the rifle has been contacted and has been very helpful in every way. I know it seems like slow progress to me, but its progress nonetheless. Thanks for everyone’s input on the threads, and PM’s I truly appreciate it.
Fair enough brother. As I posted I was fairly sure that was where you were coming from as far as seeking help from the Hide. I also now have a better understanding (I think) of your build process. It seems to be a little different than most of ours in that we typically talk to a builder about what we want and what it will be used for; ask for guidance/corrections on our plans based on their experience; determine whether the builder is going to source all the parts or if we're going to supply some; agree on prices and projected completion; etc. Through the course of that process we come to get a pretty good feel for the person doing the build and that was the "relationship" I was referring to in regards to whether based on your read of the builder you would contact them or not.
At the end of the day, it's your rifle and your unfortunate incident. As you acknowledged, some of the Hiders provided a lot of great advice, which I understood to be your goal for starting the thread.
What has drawn at least a good number if not most of the folks that are following this thread is the desire at some point to find out the details. At least for me, this is the time I'm deciding on a build for the year. I think a lot of us think in terms of an "annual build" or set our sights on a new toy for the year and start the process of building it or buying it. Because of that, there IS a certain degree of "frustration", for lack of a better word, at not knowing who the builder was and how they're handling it. THAT information helps the rest of us make informed decisions about our future purchases.
I meant no offense, and apologize for maybe breaking balls a little bit.
I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction and you'll reach a point where you're able to provide the rest of the information.
Sincere best wishes on getting it handled.
At the end of the day, it's your rifle and your unfortunate incident. As you acknowledged, some of the Hiders provided a lot of great advice, which I understood to be your goal for starting the thread.
What has drawn at least a good number if not most of the folks that are following this thread is the desire at some point to find out the details. At least for me, this is the time I'm deciding on a build for the year. I think a lot of us think in terms of an "annual build" or set our sights on a new toy for the year and start the process of building it or buying it. Because of that, there IS a certain degree of "frustration", for lack of a better word, at not knowing who the builder was and how they're handling it. THAT information helps the rest of us make informed decisions about our future purchases.
I meant no offense, and apologize for maybe breaking balls a little bit.
I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction and you'll reach a point where you're able to provide the rest of the information.
Sincere best wishes on getting it handled.
Thanks for the understanding. I had no idea of the popularity of custom rifle builds, but I'm getting an education quickly! There are definitely some knowledgeable people here. Lucky for me, they're willing to share their information. I've mentioned it in some PM's to others, but it's bothering me as much if not more than others about putting out all of the information. Thanks again.
I ditto bogeybrown's comments, well said. I hope you do get this resolved in short order and get it back in working order the way you wished it. I must say I have learned a valuable lesson from your accident and that is eye protection. I do autobody all day and wear them for most of the day and I just do not want to wear them more then I have too. I always wear ear muffs but never wear glasses when shooting because of my work (just tired of wearing them all day) but I will now be getting them just for shooting as a result of your story. So for that I thank you for sharing your issue you might have just saved me from a simular problem (God forbid) if that should happen to me.
Good luck
Dave
Good luck
Dave
First I'm glad you're going to keep all your original equipment. Eyes & Ears: Always.
Your chamber wasn't machined correctly. Either you got a Norma mag or a WSM chambering. After looking at your pictures I cant see the belt relief in the chamber wall so I'm guessing your barrel was chambered in WSM.
Either way, there's no excuse for things not being double checked and triple checked. Your rifle should have been test fired before it left the shop.
Your chamber wasn't machined correctly. Either you got a Norma mag or a WSM chambering. After looking at your pictures I cant see the belt relief in the chamber wall so I'm guessing your barrel was chambered in WSM.
Either way, there's no excuse for things not being double checked and triple checked. Your rifle should have been test fired before it left the shop.
I am sorry you were injured but glad you are ok. I just received in December after a 2 year 3 month wait, my rifle from Tactical Rifles. Now fortunately for me it fired fine, but it also did not come with test target I was promised, nor did I receive any documentation with rifle. My rifle also came dirty and was told that being dirty was my proof that it was test fired. I have a lot of other issues, not receiving QD swivels I paid for and a very shoddy hydrographics job with flush cups that aren't flush. But I digress. I hope you get to the bottom of it quickly.
Sucks, but I guess that's just proof that your philosophy of life isn't up to their standards….
I am not clear why the decision to contact the builder is "not all up to me." Or why the 'others involved' have decided not to contact the builder. Seems like it has been 2+ weeks since knowing about this failure, and withholding this information from the builder could potentially be detrimental. It is possible (from what I understand) the rifle was not test fired. Knowing one of his rifle's blew up may change this practice of sending out rifle's prior to test firing. And I seem to recall your main concern was to prevent this from happening to another person.
In any case, glad to here you were not seriously injured.
In any case, glad to here you were not seriously injured.
I can see many cases where a non-attorney third party might be involved... i.e. Military, LEO, FBI. In the end that is none of my or anyone elses business. Respect the man's decisions, and stop trying to badger additional information out of him.
Chip
Chip,
I am absolutely NOT "trying to badger additional information out of him." Read my post - I inquired as to why he has not notified the gunsmith. Never asked him to name anyone here in this thread.
I am absolutely NOT "trying to badger additional information out of him." Read my post - I inquired as to why he has not notified the gunsmith. Never asked him to name anyone here in this thread.
After reading this whole thing I'm still not sure the builder of the rifle even knows there is a problem. If all you got was scared and a boo boo you are not going to get rich off this. Your health insurance will not go after him for your medical bills or your defective rifle. When I got hurt, mine sure didn't even after a $100,000 in medical bills for me and a life long permanent disability. The only thing you are really out is the rifle and maybe some co-pay on your insurance. If you were to sue for the medical bills, even if you won the health insurance company is getting reimbursed and you, what ever you are out in co pay.
I would return the rifle to the builder and ask him to make it right. If he says no then it looks like you might have a pretty good small claims court case. Most likely I'm pretty sure he'll bend over backwards to make it right.
Mark,
What happened with your short tennon case? Did the guy sue and get rich?
I would return the rifle to the builder and ask him to make it right. If he says no then it looks like you might have a pretty good small claims court case. Most likely I'm pretty sure he'll bend over backwards to make it right.
Mark,
What happened with your short tennon case? Did the guy sue and get rich?
Not knowing the builder in this case but if it is who everyone is suspecting then I wouldn't expect it to get corrected anytime soon let alone have him bend over backwards. I surely hope it does get corrected because noone deserves to have their hard earned money taken from them without getting the best possible product in return.
Dave
Not trying to hijack this thread at all, but I have to ask, what in the world happened in your situation that caused permanent disability and 100 grand in med bills? Sounds extremely unfortunate to say the least. If you would rather not answer I understand sir.
Steve
If this is the gunsmiths fault and sending out untested/unfired rifles is part of this builders MO then we might hear of other stories of injuries, near misses or worse. I hope that doesn't happen.
Quick update for everyone.
The manufacturer has been contacted via phone. The conversation went as expected;"....send us the rifle and we'll diagnose the problem," "hope he's doing ok....." Also, the company rep stated that the gun was test fired prior to leaving their facility. However, when presented with a few "reasons" why it is believed that it didn't happen, apparently the individual became very silent on the phone. Just an interesting point.
They (manufacturer) were offered to be present when the rifle is looked at by an independent third party. This was a suggestion by one of the members here, and a good one at that (Thanks!). I'm not sure that will happen but at least it is an option that all parties are considering and open to. For the next step, the manufacturer will be sent via mail and email an actual documented outline of the incident.
The gun should be looked at by an independent third party in the near future. I don't know how long that will take as I think a decision still has to be made as to who is qualified to examine the rifle, and then who to actually send it to. If anyone has suggestions in that area, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
The manufacturer has been contacted via phone. The conversation went as expected;"....send us the rifle and we'll diagnose the problem," "hope he's doing ok....." Also, the company rep stated that the gun was test fired prior to leaving their facility. However, when presented with a few "reasons" why it is believed that it didn't happen, apparently the individual became very silent on the phone. Just an interesting point.
They (manufacturer) were offered to be present when the rifle is looked at by an independent third party. This was a suggestion by one of the members here, and a good one at that (Thanks!). I'm not sure that will happen but at least it is an option that all parties are considering and open to. For the next step, the manufacturer will be sent via mail and email an actual documented outline of the incident.
The gun should be looked at by an independent third party in the near future. I don't know how long that will take as I think a decision still has to be made as to who is qualified to examine the rifle, and then who to actually send it to. If anyone has suggestions in that area, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
Marc Soulie. Alternatively, tell us your geographic area or the area where the builder is.
Have you considered buying a no-go gage in the caliber stamped on the barrel and checking to see if you can close the action on the gage. Based on everyone's input, I'm betting the action closes with ease. If you ask nicely, there is probably a hide member in your area that has one they will let you use theirs. They cost around $30.00.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. My personal opinion is that it was unsupported case web from too deep of counterbore or short tenon, not headspace.
PA area, but willing to ship the rifle anywhere if needed.
I believe a check will be done with the GO/NO GO Gauges since that is relatively simple. But as 300sniper said, there seems to be a consensus that it has something to do with Counterbore.....Tenon....I'm just not that familiar with those.
I believe a check will be done with the GO/NO GO Gauges since that is relatively simple. But as 300sniper said, there seems to be a consensus that it has something to do with Counterbore.....Tenon....I'm just not that familiar with those.
Where in PA? There are a number of extremely qualified smiths located throughout the state although i strongly suggest you do not disclose in this thread who you are considering as the smiths may not wish to be publically included in this shitstorm. Feel free to shoot me a pm for some private suggestions.
You short changed him. But for England we would not have a Bill of Rights or the Constitution at all. Repressive government was largely the reason for the separation of this country from English rule, and that separation required a forward path that prevented the government from becoming one like it had renounced. English rule was not the entire reason for separation, but such rule in all it's design formed the foundation that generated most all the secondary reasons.
As for custom shops or independent smiths not test firing a gun of their making because of time and expense, such a statement is telling their customers the shop cares little, if at all, for the customer and profit is their only God. Find another shop if they don't test fire their creations.
D
Deleted member 10043
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I'm just curious. Why are you making all this shit public? You obviously have incompetent legal counsel or you're just making shit up. You came on here looking for "expert" advice and some people are taking the bait. I suppose at some point there will be something to learn here but I'm sending this thread into outer space. I smell bullshit.
A little brotherly love sometimes hurts but something needs said.
As long as the person doing the checking wasn't run out of the business for lying, anyone capable of making a chamber cast is qualified. It's non destructive and will not alter the rifle. The casting is then compared to the reamer print and the cartridge. Take pictures of the cast and the intended cartridge and put them side by side in the same picture and post it here. The error will be obvious. This is not an error of 3 or 4 thousandths. If it was, rifles would blow up every day.
They offered to check it out and I assume fix it. I wish I could stop here but please, "Independent third party", "all parties" , "documented outline of the incident". Sounds like you have some back seat legal advice. Talk to an actual attorney and get on with it if you are going to. Otherwise loose the Perry Mason crap. Most if not all rifle builders are in this sport because they enjoy firearms and want to share it. There is no conspiracy. No one is out to get you. Have you never made a mistake? We're over 23,000 views now. When you did, would you want it splattered all over the internet before you were even notified?
Once this turns legal everything stops. All communication goes through the attorneys. His attorneys are most likely paid for by his liability insurance. If he looses, the insurance will pay for your rifle and reimburse your insurance company. Who is paying for your attorney? Can you afford to fund a legal battle when the most you are going to get is back to even? Who will pay if they countersue for the damage done to their company with this internet thread? A stink like this could take 20 years to wear off. Once it goes legal it can get ugly. That is, if you can afford to make it that way. It could be up to 3 years before it's settled. If it goes the other way, it could come back your way and you could end up the looser. In my experience no one "wins". I'm not an attorney so this is just a bunch of out loud thinking based on personal past experience. Take it for what it's worth.
You went to the ER and followed up with a specialist. What did the eye doctor say? Did I miss something? Is your life forever altered? Are you on life support? What more do you want? "hope he's okay" Who called them? This is getting beyond stupid. Let them fix it and move on. Then come tell us how great your experience turned out. We will all share the joy.
Now, let's put another log on the fire and pass the marshmallows. Who's leading Kumbaya? Dammit.
As long as the person doing the checking wasn't run out of the business for lying, anyone capable of making a chamber cast is qualified. It's non destructive and will not alter the rifle. The casting is then compared to the reamer print and the cartridge. Take pictures of the cast and the intended cartridge and put them side by side in the same picture and post it here. The error will be obvious. This is not an error of 3 or 4 thousandths. If it was, rifles would blow up every day.
They offered to check it out and I assume fix it. I wish I could stop here but please, "Independent third party", "all parties" , "documented outline of the incident". Sounds like you have some back seat legal advice. Talk to an actual attorney and get on with it if you are going to. Otherwise loose the Perry Mason crap. Most if not all rifle builders are in this sport because they enjoy firearms and want to share it. There is no conspiracy. No one is out to get you. Have you never made a mistake? We're over 23,000 views now. When you did, would you want it splattered all over the internet before you were even notified?
Once this turns legal everything stops. All communication goes through the attorneys. His attorneys are most likely paid for by his liability insurance. If he looses, the insurance will pay for your rifle and reimburse your insurance company. Who is paying for your attorney? Can you afford to fund a legal battle when the most you are going to get is back to even? Who will pay if they countersue for the damage done to their company with this internet thread? A stink like this could take 20 years to wear off. Once it goes legal it can get ugly. That is, if you can afford to make it that way. It could be up to 3 years before it's settled. If it goes the other way, it could come back your way and you could end up the looser. In my experience no one "wins". I'm not an attorney so this is just a bunch of out loud thinking based on personal past experience. Take it for what it's worth.
You went to the ER and followed up with a specialist. What did the eye doctor say? Did I miss something? Is your life forever altered? Are you on life support? What more do you want? "hope he's okay" Who called them? This is getting beyond stupid. Let them fix it and move on. Then come tell us how great your experience turned out. We will all share the joy.
Now, let's put another log on the fire and pass the marshmallows. Who's leading Kumbaya? Dammit.
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Lots of emotions on here for a man sharing his experience. If you don't like it, don't read it or believe it. It's amazing how hostile people become when they add something to cyberspace.
Thanks for sharing. My dad had a catastrophic failure in his Ed Brown, totally blew the slide. Well long story short they charged him a new slide and would not return his original slide for analysis by our own gun Smith.
Yep they kept my dad's property he paid for and he had to buy another slide from them.
Ed brown then called security on us when we confronted then in person at the sky show 2 years ago.
I even got kicked off of the 1911 forum for asking their thoughts on ed brown blaming factory loaded ammo (herters) as the cause and not their work or criminal act of keeping my dad's property.
Wish we got an attorney now with 20/20 hindsight
Thanks for sharing. My dad had a catastrophic failure in his Ed Brown, totally blew the slide. Well long story short they charged him a new slide and would not return his original slide for analysis by our own gun Smith.
Yep they kept my dad's property he paid for and he had to buy another slide from them.
Ed brown then called security on us when we confronted then in person at the sky show 2 years ago.
I even got kicked off of the 1911 forum for asking their thoughts on ed brown blaming factory loaded ammo (herters) as the cause and not their work or criminal act of keeping my dad's property.
Wish we got an attorney now with 20/20 hindsight
