Ceramic Rifle Barrels and Their Benefits

[THEIS]

Hi,

So that we do not cloud the ELR Mach V thread with ceramic rifle barrel discussions AND since the subject really does warrant its' own thread
Here are some very interesting studies and research documents from various sources on the subject. Some of you may have seen some of them already but some may have not.

https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/333848

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7197986B1/en

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[TiroFijo]

Great for erosion resistance and huge powder loads... The question is (at least for long range) how accurate can they be made?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I think we will see full titanium barrels before we see the ceramic process be able to handle the precision we require in lands/grooves.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10426914.2011.648698?src=recsys

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Additional ceramic barrel studies.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a480918.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080120889

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[pmclaine]

Hi,

So that we do not cloud the ELR Mach V thread with ceramic rifle barrel discussions AND since the subject really does warrant its' own thread
Here are some very interesting studies and research documents from various sources on the subject. Some of you may have seen some of them already but some may have not.

https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/333848

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7197986B1/en

Sincerely,
Theis

Just scanned that report quickly....are they only using ceramic at the throat to prohibit erosion where you get all kinds of heel and violence before the round gets to travel and relieve some of that hell and violence?

 

[Clearlight]

Like anything industrial , if the demand is there , the machines to grind the inside of the barrel will
get designed and made . I wonder if any cero-metallic compounds from the automotive brake world
have potential application for rifle barrels . Full and semi autos may have the most to gain from this tech .

The grinding and finishing machines used to make orthopaedic products , like the ceramic ball and
acetabular cups in high end hip replacements , are certainly precise enough . Maybe some kind of
PVD spray coating could be applied .

 

[THEIS]

Maybe some kind of PVD spray coating could be applied .

Hi,

You would think so huh.....I have contacted several aerospace and automotive specializing coating companies in the US and they all tell me the same thing. The application is the problem. Small diameter for long distance is not suitable for the application process.
From my brief researching; the UK might be ahead of the US in regards to specialized ceramic coatings so that is my next search.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lesco Brandon]

https://www.drakeassociates.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/DRAKE_TITAN_WEB-1.pdf?faa51f

 

[THEIS]

https://www.drakeassociates.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/DRAKE_TITAN_WEB-1.pdf?faa51f

Hi,

The core of that system is still a common steel alloy, not Titanium or such. The Gunwright website use to show images of the spray/coating process but now it really does not show anything. http://www.gunwright.com/

F1 Firearms used to advertise the same gunwright coating process as an option but I think they removed it awhile back.

Steel core with lighter weight "sleeves" have been around for years. Lothar has been making their light weight "sleeved" barrels for decades.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Silverjay]

Why does titanium need to be coated? Any idea what alloy is being tried? I make titanium alloys, might be an avenue if I understood the coating requirement.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Silverjay
They were/are not coating titanium. They are titanium coating normal steel alloy to reduce the weight. But instead of "sleeving" the steel core; gunwright was spraying the titanium coating onto the steel core.
But that does not provide the extended barrel life that a true titanium barrel would. Much less what a ceramic barrel life would be.

Edited To Add: This is the sleeve process LW has for their big barrels.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[2Akeepers]

Ceramic has been researched for many years for use in engine blocks and gun barrels.
The idea for both is ceramics ability to handle high heat and wear.
A ceramic engine would require no cooling system and a ceramic gun barrel would melt the receiver and bolt to slag before the barrel failed.

Unfortunately, no one has been able to solve the problem of the brittleness of ceramic.
In either application, shock causes the ceramic to shatter, and until that problem is solved, ceramic engines and gun barrels are not possible.
Every few years we hear about ceramic gun barrels but either this is really some sort of "treatment" that isn't real ceramic, or you hear about experiments with ceramic barrels or liners, then you hear nothing more about it because it failed.

The first company that can build a successful ceramic engine will instantly OWN the automotive world.

The first company that can make a ceramic gun barrel will instantly render every other gun barrel in the world obsolete literally over night.

 

[Silverjay]

Hi,

@Silverjay
They were/are not coating titanium. They are titanium coating normal steel alloy to reduce the weight. But instead of "sleeving" the steel core; gunwright was spraying the titanium coating onto the steel core.
But that does not provide the extended barrel life that a true titanium barrel would. Much less what a ceramic barrel life would be.

Edited To Add: This is the sleeve process LW has for their big barrels.

Sincerely,
Theis

Understand. I suspect the difficulty in machining has slowed the process. Now I am intrigued.

 

[THEIS]

Understand. I suspect the difficulty in machining has slowed the process. Now I am intrigued.

Hi,

Copy and Paste from one of the previous mentioned links. What are you thoughts on this?

Sincerely,
Theis

Abstract
Titanium alloys offer the potential to reduce weight by over 40% over steel. However, applying a reliable liner coating to a titanium barrel has not been demonstrated, which is a major reason titanium barrels have not replaced steel barrels. Titanium carbonitride (TiCN) coatings on cutting tools are among the hardest ceramics and possess low coefficient of friction, which is desirable properties for a gun barrel liner.
It has been demonstrated possible to build gun barrels from the inside out utilizing a mandrel with reverse rifling which provides the opportunity to produce a TiCN surface functionally graded into the titanium barrel structure. Such a barrel will save approximately 40% weight over steel barrels and with the TiCN liner there is potential to provide infinite barrel life independent of the propellant and projectile. A plasma transferred arc (PTA) rapid manufacturing process can produce the titanium barrel structure in the range of $6–9/lb resulting in cost effective titanium gun barrels.

 

[Silverjay]

Sounds like a deposition process, I am not familiar with that for TiCN. The powder deposition has come a long way, but I am not sure the dimensional tolerance on the ID. I am wondering about a laser deposition coupled with final machining pass for final dimensions. We also produce some more exotic alloys that might remove the need for the TiCN. I am going to talk with some of our R&D guys next week.

 

[TripleBull]

The first company that can build a successful ceramic engine will instantly OWN the automotive world.

The self-reinforcing silicon nitride ceramic I mentioned in the other thread was used to build a prototype ~1 cubic inch internal combustion engine in the mid-90's. It had excellent wear characteristics and IIRC, it generated 2.3 HP. The self-reinforcing structure of the ceramic increased toughness and decreased brittleness. The problem was the manufacturing cost.

Cermets such as WC/Co are also a possibility, as they are incredibly tough and hard, but again, the cost is astronomical. Maybe the ROC process could me made to work on small barrels.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470310496.ch49

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234152395_Rapid_Omnidirectional_Compaction_ROC_of_Powder

ROC uses greenware but I have not seen it applied to a hollow device, let alone a rifled barrel.

 

[Rust]

In other regards, the inability to accurately control dimensioning of the bore and rifling resulted in pretty much no accuracy, and the ceramic was brittle. Which pretty much insured such a thing could not be fielded. With twenty years additional research they aren't any closer. Ceramics are virtually impossible to produce a tightly dimensioned bore and rifling with. Same could be said of any of the very hard steel alloys.

The HBN, the hexagonal form of nitride of boron has been used in target shooting for years but has never caught on over a wide audience. While "filling in the cracks" in steel is a nice theory as far as I know the technique is unproven. HBN is a very good lubricant, less problematic than moly and tungsten disulfide. Whether it forms a wear layer or merely provides friction reduction I don't believe has been proven.

Sabre makes Ma Deuce barrels with a much harder chamber and throat insert. It requires a great degree of precision. They wear better than the regular barrels. At least that's what I was aware of a number of years ago. Information has dried up since then.

 

[damoncali]

Inconel (a nickle alloy used in high temperature applications) has come up as a material that could resist erosion significantly better than steel. If I recall correctly, it yielded roughly 3 times the life of steel (don't quote me on that). No idea as to accuracy or cost.

 

[TripleBull]

Inconel (a nickle alloy used in high temperature applications) has come up as a material that could resist erosion significantly better than steel. If I recall correctly, it yielded roughly 3 times the life of steel (don't quote me on that). No idea as to accuracy or cost.

I once had to cut up an Inconel drill bit for microanalysis. That was a royal bitch. We had excellent cut-off tools, all kinds of blades, experience, etc. A cut through an ~4" diameter section took 32 hours. Not all Inconel alloys are so difficult.

 

[damoncali]

I once had to cut up an Inconel drill bit for microanalysis. That was a royal bitch. We had excellent cut-off tools, all kinds of blades, experience, etc. A cut through an ~4" diameter section took 32 hours. Not all Inconel alloys are so difficult.

We used some kinds of inconel in the aerospace business, but I was never around when they had to cut it. They did manage some very high precision parts, though. God only knows how much they cost - money wasn't exactly something we thought about much. I imagine gun drilling it would be tough. How long a wire edm hole can you make?

 

[TripleBull]

How long a wire edm hole can you make?

I've heard of people running in the 3 foot range. All my EDM experience was for much shorter than that.

 

[TiroFijo]

FN makes their SPR with high grade steel CHF barrels, and they are even chromed... they claim durabiity of 2X or more compared to normal steel barrels. HK and Sako also make/had made super accurate and durable CHF barrels.

Their accuracy is reportedly veeery good, but not quite super duper match.

The problem with ELR loads is that we want as much powder and pressure as possible, with heavy and relatively hard bullets. Modern bullet design has come a long way to aleviate impact and friction, but these rounds are very hard on barrels. AND we need the barrels to be as accurate as posible to make hits at long range.

 

[damoncali]

The good news is that match grade accuracy is not a hard requirement for ELR, and in fact, the bullets used discourage it. The bar is lower than it is for benchrest.

 

[TripleBull]

The good news is that match grade accuracy is not a hard requirement for ELR, and in fact, the bullets used discourage it. The bar is lower than it is for benchrest.

Lol, I search for activities with low bars...

 

[steve123]

I know I'm being OT a bit but it looks like ceramics for barrels might not be a choice due to reasons already discussed.

However, what about 1 or 2 steps up in barrel hardness and using carbide reamers? I wonder if this will increase barrel life and by how much???

I don't know anything about this kind of stuff but have to wonder.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

It is pretty well known that LW uses a slightly harder steel. Just ask some of the custom rifle builders the difference they see in chambering and threading LW barrels compared to others

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[damoncali]

I know I'm being OT a bit but it looks like ceramics for barrels might not be a choice due to reasons already discussed.

However, what about 1 or 2 steps up in barrel hardness and using carbide reamers? I wonder if this will increase barrel life and by how much???

I don't know anything about this kind of stuff but have to wonder.

Hardness, at least directly, isn't much of a factor. Barrel errosion is caused by a complex set of factors, the major one being heat transfer to the outermost layer of material in the bore, which melts and is washed away. There are also phase changes that happen a little deeper that complicate it (sort of like the metal gets heat treated in a chaotic, uncontrolled manner), along with chemical reactions with the hot gasses. Pressure and temperature cycles cause cracking. Mechanical wear isn't much of a factor. It has more to do with the temperature resistence of the materials used, and the amount of energy you dump into the bore. What you want is a material that maintains its hardness at high temperature if you really want to push limits.

It seems like high temperature allows like A286 (maybe?) and Inconel 718, or U700 would provide the easiest path to a significant improvement, although probably at a major cost premium, and could require some out of the box thinking on manufacturing. Experiments have shown that these alloys work much better than nomal steel, but I have no idea what sort of accuracy was had by barrels made from those materials.

 

[steve123]

Barrels are expendable, yes, but I'm having to rethink barrel wear with my 6x47. I had a Schnieder barrel melonited and got just short of 3000 rounds out of it, that was so nice because it lasted 2 seasons. I took a chance that it would work as some guys that got their barrels melonited had poor accuracy???

A more solid solution rather than meloniting is something I'd be more interested in.

Well I think for right now I'll try a 24 or 25 cal with Blackjacks based off the BR case. Maybe I'll try a LW if I decide on the 24.

 

[steve123]

I think I read somewhere about the Swedes getting super good barrel life with 6.5x55, they were using LW barrels, yes or no???

 

[Bravo6niner]

Stellite is an option. It’s being used in MG barrels currently from the chamber forward on the first 1/4 of the barrels.

 

[Clearlight]

Barrels are expendable, yes, but I'm having to rethink barrel wear with my 6x47. I had a Schnieder barrel melonited and got just short of 3000 rounds out of it, that was so nice because it lasted 2 seasons. I took a chance that it would work as some guys that got their barrels melonited had poor accuracy???

A more solid solution rather than meloniting is something I'd be more interested in.

Well I think for right now I'll try a 24 or 25 cal with Blackjacks based off the BR case. Maybe I'll try a LW if I decide on the 24.

I remember reading about World Champ sling shooter John Whidden , saying that the Melonite process was
best done after breaking in the barrel . Get it past the velocity change and it’s good . The process itself might
be variable from different workshops .

 

[steve123]

I remember reading about World Champ sling shooter John Whidden , saying that the Melonite process was
best done after breaking in the barrel . Get it past the velocity change and it’s good . The process itself might
be variable from different workshops .

Thanks

The GS I used had a method for polishing off the burrs off the end of the chamber which seemed like a good idea. So mine was unshot when he sent it off for Melonite and he apparently sent it off to the right vender. Yes I do remember there was a Meloniter that was not doing a good job after mine was done.

The thought of investing almost $800 for the next barrel, smithing, the meloniting, for even a small percentage of possible failure was to much of a risk to me to do the second time around. I was ignorant of the risks the first time or I might not have tried Melonite.

And if a barrel didn't turn out accurate, there wasn't anything to be done to it since the Melonite is so hard, so out all the money put forth.

If there was a 100% fullproof warranty on Melonite and an accuracy guarantee going on together, then that would be different, but that's unrealistic.

 

[phlegm]

It would be interesting if the additive manufacturing of items with Titanium and Ceramic composites advances enough to offer this kind of precision.

https://3dprint.com/98211/z3dlab-zti-powder-composite/

 

[ELR researcher]

Stellite is an option. It’s being used in MG barrels currently from the chamber forward on the first 1/4 of the barrels.

My first thought was Stellite, especially now that the company is owned by Kennametal (http://www.stellite.com/en/home.html). It has been around for ages - used it to produce wear rings for industrial pumps back a very long time ago.

 

[xdeano]

FNH did a ceramic liner in their steel barrels several years ago with the A3G. The ones that went to the FBI. There were lots of problems taking these barrels in to get the muzzle threaded. They would put range rods into the muzzle and end up chipping or cracking the ceramic. The end result would be with a new barrel.

Xdeano

 

[TiroFijo]

In their literature FNH stated that the A3G barrels were chrome lined...