CFE 223 with super low veleocities?

[Molon]

Depending upon the year, factory loaded Federal 69 grain Gold Medal Match ammunition has a listed muzzle velocity of 2950 FPS or 3000 FPS. These figures are for a 24” barrel.

When chronographed from a Colt 14.5” M4 barrel, the muzzle velocity of factory loaded Federal 69 grain Gold Medal Match ammunition has ranged from 2421 FPS to 2467 FPS.

.....

 

[b6graham]

10" of barrel loss

20-50 fps per inch depending on the system (not even taking into account powder choice for barrel length)

numbers look good to me

 

[MarinePMI]

I usually don't venture into GenPop these days unless there's a report that flags me to go look.

This thread reminds me why that is.

So much retard in this thread I don't even know where to start...

That being said, there are quite a few knowledgeable reloaders in this thread, that the OP may want to be less prickly towards.

Don't get me started on the phone texting abbreviations and grammar. <sigh> Smh...

 

[n2ishun]

One thing to always remember.
In today's kinder safer world things are much more cautious.
Drag up some older reloading manuals and see what they might give for data that isn't so kind and safe.
I keep a full set of manuals from *about* 1980 to current....and yes things have changed and not always for the best.
The new manuals might as well say "Lawyer edition" on them.

Might try 4227 and/or BLC-2
I've had very good luck with both.

 

[n2ishun]

Don't get me started on the phone texting abbreviations and grammar. <sigh> Smh...

Am I seeing things here ?
Is it accidental irony, or on purpose.
You be the judge

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I usually don't venture into GenPop these days unless there's a report that flags me to go look.

Are you saying that some pussy got so offended by something in this thread that they hit the report button? Other than the OP clearly needing to get laid this thread has been pretty mild.

 

[Dogtown]

I mean, it's not the Bear Pit crazy, but the tit-for-tit "No, you!" is classic Internet Forum fare.

 

[MarinePMI]

Are you saying that some pussy got so offended by something in this thread that they hit the report button? Other than the OP clearly needing to get laid this thread has been pretty mild.

No, no report. I just had a few minutes between meetings at work, and wandered into this thread. (Oh joy, oh rapture.)

 

[MarinePMI]

Am I seeing things here ?
Is it accidental irony, or on purpose.
You be the judge

LOL! Busted. Touche'

 

[sheepdog697]

Okay you two are not allowed to sit by each other anymore....

 

[rlsmith1]

Okay you two are not allowed to sit by each other anymore....

I actually almost commented I haven’t felt this way since 2nd grade when the teacher came back to me standing on a desk goofing off

 

[JBArvin]

Boy everyone is on edge these days.....how about some humor to lighten things up?

View attachment 7852380

Love it… I seems like every thread here on the Hide turns into a pissing contest in no time flat.

 

[Kra961]

I'm running CFE 223 out of a 14.5" P&W bbl getting 2450 fps velocities...barely. Using 69 SMKs and 25.0 gr CFE 223. I should be north of 2,800 fps per relaoding manuals

And I'm getting crappy groups 1.25" at 100 yd.

Anyone else? What the Hades?

The good news is you're getting higher V then you should be, the bad news is you will not get the V you want with CFE 223 it's the wrong powder for that configuration, this coming from QL as well as my own experience. if you changed to a 77gr you would be spot on.

 

[Kra961]

Boy everyone is on edge these days.....how about some humor to lighten things up?

View attachment 7852380

Wait are you saying I shouldn't be loading my powder like that?

 

[Im2bent]

Wait are you saying I shouldn't be loading my powder like that?

Actually this is how real operaters operate. This is why 5.56 is hotter than.223. Don't tell anyone else though its a secret.

 

[Kra961]

Actually this is how real operaters operate. This is why 5.56 is hotter than.223. Don't tell anyone else though its a secret.

Whew I named my dustpan killer, I didn't want to change it's name.

 

[Near miss]

Has the OP tried the AR Comp yet?

I have understood the really short barrels 12-11" and shorter can be fed with N130 or N133 to get the bigger bullets flying, i guess something in the N135 area could be used for 14.5" since it can work in longer barrels too. So somewhere around N133-N135.

Good candidates:
AR Comp (you have this)
Benchmark (natoreloading.com's favorite)
Pro Varmint (if I remember correctly this was used by JRB to get beyond 2800 in 18" without marks.)
Or the N530. It could work out very well too?

*disclaimer, I started reloading 3 months ago.

 

[Vtensei]

I'm running CFE 223 out of a 14.5" P&W bbl getting 2450 fps velocities...barely. Using 69 SMKs and 25.0 gr CFE 223. I should be north of 2,800 fps per relaoding manuals

And I'm getting crappy groups 1.25" at 100 yd.

Anyone else? What the Hades?

I had a similar experience last year, finally decided that it was because I was reloading with 223 data, but shooting through a 5.56 chamber. Thus much lower velocity. When I fired the same rounds through a 223 Wylde chamber, the velocity came up substantially. Both barrels were same length. I don't have a 223 Rem-chambered rifle to test...

Perhaps this is (part of) the issue?

I'm curious if anyone else can substantiate this assumption (based on observed data) that I've made...

 

[ross2681]

my results with 27.8 gr of cfe 55 gr fmj bulk bullets 5.56 chamber 24 in bbl avg 3259 fps , 16 bbl 5.56 bbl avg 2884 fps , xm193 24 in bbl 3360 fps , 16 in bbl 3033 fps , have not chronograph short bbl yet , haven't checked my 1200 R loads yet but your not supposed to go over 55 gr bullet with it, shorter bbl and heavier bullet less fps , a pressure test bbl in lab will show more fps then a rifle bbl attached to chamber

 

[Molon]

I'm curious if anyone else can substantiate this assumption (based on observed data) that I've made...

The chamber of a rifle includes the body/shoulder/neck, the free-bore and the leade. Any chamber that reduces the volume of the body, shoulder and neck of the chamber has the potential to create higher pressures and thus higher velocities with the same powder charge. Any chamber that has shorter and narrower dimensions for the free-bore has the potential to create higher pressures and thus higher velocities with the same powder charge. Any chamber that has a shorter and more steeply angled leade has the potential to create higher pressures and thus higher velocities with the same powder charge.

Combine these aspects and you can see higher velocities from barrels that have “tighter” chambers compared to equivalent length 5.56mm chambered barrels with the same powder charge Naturally, these statements are based on loads that meet SAAMI safety specifications for pressure in the 223 Remington cartridge and obviously there are a lot of variables involved in all of this.

Also, most reloading manual data for the 233 Remington cartridge is obtained with 24” bolt action test barrels. With the semi-automatic AR-15 it’s possible to lose approximately 25 FPS (dependent upon variables) due to the gas operating system. The Sierra reloading manual gives realistic muzzle velocities for loads fired from a 20” semi-automatic AR-15.

As an example of the elements stated above, the table below shows the muzzle velocities for the same hand-load of the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing fired from a 20” Colt barreled AR-15 with a 5.56mm chamber and a 20” Krieger barreled AR-15 that has a “5.56 Match” chamber.

…..

 

[bfoosh006]

@Near miss

Thank you for the natoreloading.com link... looks like I have something to check out tonight.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The good news is you're getting higher V then you should be, the bad news is you will not get the V you want with CFE 223 it's the wrong powder for that configuration, this coming from QL as well as my own experience. if you changed to a 77gr you would be spot on.

This is at odds with my experience. I've always got significantly higher velocities with CFE than 8208, and while I didn't write down my CFE speeds when I was testing it, I do have my 8208 data and I'm getting higher velocities with 77's in 13.7", 14", 14.5" and 15" barrels than the OP is getting with 69's in a 14.5". My 69gr are still getting 2650 fps in the 13.7".

 

[Kra961]

This is at odds with my experience. I've always got significantly higher velocities with CFE than 8208, and while I didn't write down my CFE speeds when I was testing it, I do have my 8208 data and I'm getting higher velocities with 77's in 13.7", 14", 14.5" and 15" barrels than the OP is getting with 69's in a 14.5". My 69gr are still getting 2650 fps in the 13.7".

Don’t get me wrong cfe 233 is a good powder for heavier bullets it burns slower then 8208 which falls in between h335 and tac making it suitable for lighter weight bullets, I like cfe for for the 77gr it’s fairly consistent and provides good accuracy and it meters well.

 

[Bubs]

What crimp die are you using?The Lee FCD is the only die for bottleneck cartridges,determined after 35+ yrs reloading.Their other products are personal choice....I've seen perfectly loaded rounds chrono low with crap performance,ran them through FCD,much better.

 

[3rd Monkey]

What crimp die are you using?The Lee FCD is the only die for bottleneck cartridges,determined after 35+ yrs reloading.Their other products are personal choice....I've seen perfectly loaded rounds chrono low with crap performance,ran them through FCD,much better.

Funny, because I could argue the exact opposite. Not arguing, because I'm not sure if it's in the brass, bullet, or level of crimp. Crimp, can be adjusted, but can't be "calibrated" to a degree of performance as far as I can tell... with Lee dies anyway.

I've ran no crimp, low crimp, heavy crimp, and everything in between and had no effect on ES or accuracy. It ONLY stops bullet walking, as far as I can tell. I'm not set on that, but don't have evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[Snuby642]

50 fps loss per inch is a lot.

Cfe223 seems to work better on light to medium for caliber bullets for me.

I will be trying ramshot tack and 8208 for the 69g bullets in my 20 inch because it's popular for heavier bullets.

Any particular reason for long range match bullets in a carbine ?

I got tired of smelling a while back and started pissing downwind.

 

[akmike47]

You come and ask a question, they don't know you or how you load and are trying to get an idea of how to help you, but you act snappy.

That makes sense.

 

[Molon]

I've ran no crimp, low crimp, heavy crimp, and everything in between and had no effect on ES or accuracy. It ONLY stops bullet walking, as far as I can tell. I'm not set on that, but don't have evidence to prove otherwise.

Crimping match-grade loads absolutely can result in a degradation of accuracy/precision.

....

 

[Yondering]

Has the OP tried the AR Comp yet?

I have understood the really short barrels 12-11" and shorter can be fed with N130 or N133 to get the bigger bullets flying, i guess something in the N135 area could be used for 14.5" since it can work in longer barrels too. So somewhere around N133-N135.

Good candidates:
AR Comp (you have this)
Benchmark (natoreloading.com's favorite)
Pro Varmint (if I remember correctly this was used by JRB to get beyond 2800 in 18" without marks.)
Or the N530. It could work out very well too?

View attachment 7853886

*disclaimer, I started reloading 3 months ago.

This is not a "you suck because you're dumb and new" post, and is meant to be educational, but - a couple of y'all don't really seem to have a good handle on the relevance of burn rate attributes and barrel length, and are offering bad advice as a result.

If you are looking to reduce flash in a short barrel, then switching to something like 8208 instead of CFE223 is a good choice. But if you're looking for more velocity, it's completely wrong. As long as we're not talking about VERY short barrels, in general terms the powder that gives the best velocity in a longer barrel will also give the best velocity in a short barrel. CFE223 is one of those, along with TAC and Lever. All three of these need to be pushed hard & hot to perform at their best though, which means something more than standard 223 Remington load data.

If you're using a shorter barrel, do not switch to a faster powder in an attempt to chase higher velocity. That is the wrong answer.

 

[GetReal]

You come and ask a question, they don't know you or how you load and are trying to get an idea of how to help you, but you act snappy.

That makes sense.

You COULD just assume I know what I'm doing re: loading, and instead of going down that rabbit hole .... just answer my question, as to wether the velocity loss described above is normal. Like....see the next post....

But its a free country. You can post / ask whatcha want, and I Can ignore posts that never attempt to answer my question. I can even come back and humbly ask ppl to answer the actual question, rather than run rabbit trails about whether or not I know what I'm doing when I reload.

"Murica!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GetReal]

50 fps loss per inch is a lot.

Cfe223 seems to work better on light to medium for caliber bullets for me.

I will be trying ramshot tack and 8208 for the 69g bullets in my 20 inch because it's popular for heavier bullets.

Any particular reason for long range match bullets in a carbine ?

I got tired of smelling a while back and started pissing downwind.

I tend to agree. 50 fps loss per bbl inch seems alot. Guys that have tested same load in 20" AR vs. 16" AR don't lose 200 fps. That I've seen anyway. If ppl have, I'd gladly hear about their first hand experience.


Hadn't thought about bullet weight and CFE ....i.e. 55 gr vs. 69 gr. HHhhmmmm.....

As to your question..... chose 69 gr cuz its a 1:7 twist, 77 smk's shot crappy, and I wanted a heavy for caliber bullet.

With crap velocities and accuracy, I think its time to try some other powders and the 77 smk's again.

Thanx.

 

[akmike47]

You COULD just assume I know what I'm doing re: loading, and instead of going down that rabbit hole .... just answer my question. Like....see the next post....

But its a free country. You can post / ask whatcha want, and I Can ignore posts that never attempt to answer my question.

"Murica!!!!!!!!!!

YOU could not act like a child when they are trying to help you. They were attempting to answer and help with your questions and you got butt hurt, and you didn’t ignore me so....

 

[GetReal]

YOU could not act like a child when they are trying to help you. They were attempting to answer and help with your questions and you got butt hurt, and you didn’t ignore me so....

Anyone that actually answers the question I asked will be warmly received. How's that sound?

 

[akmike47]

Anyone that actually asnwers the question will be warmly received.

So “tell me what I want to hear and don’t try to understand my question and I won’t bitch” got it.

 

[GetReal]

So “tell me what I want to hear and don’t try..... whatever

I guess I'm just a jerk for wanting on point answers to the actual questions I ask. The last word is yours. I'll focus on actual answers to my actual questions.

Live long and prosper, friend.

 

[akmike47]

Super cool, huge burn quoting Spock to me...

 

[GetReal]

If you are looking to reduce flash in a short barrel, then switching to something like 8208 instead of CFE223 is a good choice. But if you're looking for more velocity, it's completely wrong. As long as we're not talking about VERY short barrels, in general terms the powder that gives the best velocity in a longer barrel will also give the best velocity in a short barrel. CFE223 is one of those, along with TAC and Lever. All three of these need to be pushed hard & hot to perform at their best though, which means something more than standard 223 Remington load data.

If you're using a shorter barrel, do not switch to a faster powder in an attempt to chase higher velocity. That is the wrong answer.

I'll be shooting suppressed mostly, so when this can get's outta Federal prison, I'll watch for flash.

I am looking for more velocity. This is a P&W 14.5" so not super short. No signs of pressure, so I could increase my load. I was just looking for 1" at 100 yards, as this will be a 300 yd and under gun. Since I can't get that (1.25" is about best I can consistently get) *AND* velocity is low, another powder may be in order.

 

[Molon]

There is no valid equation to determine the change in muzzle velocity across a spectrum of barrel lengths and a variety of ammunition loads. The change in muzzle velocity will depend on a variety of interactive variables such as the barrel length spectrum involved (e.g. 20” to 16” versus 16” to 14.5”), the operating velocity spectrum involved (e.g. a 20” barrel firing a load with a MV of 2,800 FPS compared to other barrel lengths, versus a 20” barrel firing a load with a MV of 3,250 FPS compared to other barrel lengths) and the bullet weight spectrum involved (e.g. a 40 grain V-MAX versus a 75 grain OTM.)

The particular powder used in the loads will even cause variations between the FPS variation across a spectrum of barrel lengths used. Throw in differences in barrel material, chambering, round count, etc, and the differences in the muzzle velocities between different barrel lengths becomes even more unpredictable. The only way to know what the difference in the muzzle velocities of differently barreled AR-15s is to chronograph them using a significant sample size in shot strings over the chronograph.

Here are some results from actual chronographing demonstrating the above variables. (All results are from semi-automatic AR-15s with a minimum of 10 shots over the chronograph.)

An average difference in muzzle velocity between a 14.5” barrel and a 16” barrel using a 75 grain OTM load is approximately 86 fps. This gives you a difference of 57 FPS per inch of barrel.

An average difference between a 16” barrel and a 20” barrel is 108 FPS for a difference of 27 FPS per inch of barrel.

An average difference between a 20” barrel and a 24” barrel is 79 FPS for a difference of approximately 20 FPS per inch of barrel.

....

 

[Matches Malone]

 

[GetReal]

An average difference in muzzle velocity between a 14.5” barrel and a 16” barrel using a 75 grain OTM load is approximately 86 fps. This gives you a difference of 57 FPS per inch of barrel.

An average difference between a 20” barrel and a 16” barrel is 108 FPS for a difference of 27 FPS per inch of barrel.

An average difference between a 20” barrel and a 24” barrel is 79 FPS for a difference of approximately 20 FPS per inch of barrel.

....

I take this to mean velocity loss from 16 to 14.5 could well be MUCH more significant, per barrel inch, than from 24 to 16??

In other words, the 14.5" inch bbl is the cause of the very low velocities?

Am I understanding you correctly? Interesting....

So....can we assume from 24 to 16 = total 8" and maybe 200fps, and from 16 to 14.5 is another 90 fps for a total of almost 300 fps? Does your test data correspond to those roind numbers?

Its prolly not that linear, but I'm still dropping from 2950 (est per Hogdon ) tyo 2450, some 500 fps.

 

[Molon]

Depending upon the year, factory loaded Federal 69 grain Gold Medal Match ammunition has a listed muzzle velocity of 2950 FPS or 3000 FPS. These figures are for a 24” barrel.

When chronographed from a Colt 14.5” M4 barrel, the muzzle velocity of factory loaded Federal 69 grain Gold Medal Match ammunition has ranged from 2421 FPS to 2467 FPS.

 

[Snuby642]

I'll be shooting suppressed mostly, so when this can get's outta Federal prison, I'll test that.

I am looking for more velocity. This is a P&W 14.5" so not super short. No signs of pressure, so I could increase my load. I was just looking for 1" at 100 yards, as this will be a 300 yd and under gun. Since I can't get that (1.25" is about best I can consistently get) *AND* velocity is low, another powder may be in order.

Accuracy and 300 yd range.

I have a load with cfe223 that might interest you. It was sub moa in a 16 inch midway barrel and now sub 1/2 in a 20 inch ballistic advantage barrel.

It however is not heavy for caliber.
My point is for shorter ranges a flat base bullet is a choice to consider and a secant ogive is not necessarily your friend at mag lenght.

A tangent bullet is less finicky.

It is a shame my load will go trans at about 450 yds .
Speer 52g / 27.5g cfe223 / cci 400 and carefully prepped range brass with -.002 mandrell for neck tension. Coal 2.21 .

I hope you get those 69g running it's my next project after I find something that works with H335.

 

[GetReal]

@Molon ...I think I'm good... velocity-wise then. Now just to decide if I want smaller groups.

Thanx agaain.