Chasing Gear, the broken record of shooting lighter calibers

[Lowlight]

Without people chasing gear this website would be an empty shell in a lot of ways, fortunately, we all chase gear so I have nothing to worry about.

Light is Right !

In more ways than not, Light is Right. In terms of color and camouflage, light is better. I mean, who wants to carry a heavy pack, we'd all like a little less weight on our shoulders. When it comes to bullets, light is right too.

I know I am gonna sound like a broken record, but reality demands I report my findings to you guys. So in the spirit of knowledge transfer here we go...

Light wins,

To prove my Point I am gonna focus on Chris Robert's Rifle here in this picture

That ^^^^ My Friends is a brand new 224 Valkyrie. Now ask yourself, who in 2022 is dumb enough to build a Valkyrie ? I fully admit that when I my Daughter's kids grow up, there probably wont be a 224V on the shelf. If there is, it's will some bargain bin, 75gr American Eagle leftover that nobody wants but the nostalgic.

I mean, I just showed you a custom made 224V/6.8 bolt head I have for an Accuracy International. Why on Earth would I waste my time on custom 224V build for an AI rifle - Dumb.

But this weekend, I again saw excellence....

I saw Chris take a shooter who was excited to shoot a target at 264 yards get a 1st round hit at 1200... 1200 yards, with this rifle.

Speed wins, Speed Kills, Speed is our friend... What is the best way to get speed, reduce the weight of the bullet, and it doesn't have to be a lot in the context of our shooting.

We are talking, we are comparing notes, we even spoke to people like Federal trying "relaunch" the Valkyrie with a new understanding of the round and our success in a bolt action rifle. None of the struggles and all of the hype, seriously. Won't happen, but it's fun to talk.

Even the bad ammo, works in our bolt guns.

So what does all this mean.... Absolutely nothing.

it means we are having fun, having success with a dead cartridge, but the caliber is alive and well which is all we need. Pushing a .22 caliber bullet at 2750fps to 2900fps lets us play around on the cheap. This stuff costs nothing to try.... if we can finesse, fine tune, enable a neat little pet load that works for the group... boom. Maybe it's an 80gr load, maybe it's 85.5gr, 90gr, we don't know where it takes us.

We hear about guys doing a little Mexican match, take the 75gr American Eagle at $8 a box, pull the bullet, drop in a 77gr SMK, oh wait, what is that... how about trying this with the bad 90s... drop in an 85.5 with the same BC. If you get that bullet to 2800fps, drop to 1k is a 6.5CM or better...

I know, waste of time, telling stories nobody wants to repeat.

Light rifle, around 10LBS shooting a light caliber, light modular pack, rapid engagements and movement, accuracy, no recoil, no heat, longer barrel life, what is not to like ...

We tend to go too heavy, the 6.5s work better under 140 grains, the 338 under 290grain, even the move from 230 to 225, or even 215gr, we see improvements. As you think about the upcoming shooting season, drop about 6 -10grs off your bullet weight and see what happens.

Indulge me,

If you handload, try this, instead of a 140 class of bullet, go 136gr to 123gr and see what you think be curious. Some of you non Competitor types who reload and plink alot, run the numbers, create the loads and try it. Give us some numbers.

Things that make you go... HMMM

 

[Punkur67]

Every time I hear you talk about the 224V I want to build one. If Joel at Terminus starts making that bolt head I will get a barrel cut on to spin on one of my Zeus actions.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Watching to see some numbers from the 6.5cm guys. I stuck with 130s, and sometimes wonder if I should bump up to 140. Most of my shooting is 610y and under, so I’m not sure if I would benefit from the 140s from my understanding.

 

[MarkLeupold]

Maybe not exactly the same circumstance because 175gr isn't heavy for 30 cal to the same extent the 85 or 90gr bullets are for 22 cal, but it reminded me when I tried going down to 155gr from 175gr when I was shooting my .308.

Inside, say, 500 yards, speed was 100% my friend, and those 155's performed equal or better than the 175's when they were pushed 200-300 fps faster.

 

[Drew M]

My go to with a 1/9 twist .223 is a 52gn speer hollowpoint & ADI2206H.
It just works better than anything heavier in it for me, noticeably better when hunting.

After having Shoulder surgery again last Friday, I wont be shooting for a while & will start out with .22lr then .223 & up as I can tolerate the recoil.

A 224Valkyrie would probably be a good thing for me, to not hurt the shoulder to much & its an itch I've been wanting to scratch anyway.

 

[Lowlight]

A 224V is just a 223AI... without the Ackley part

Numbers are pretty close, although, my understanding is the Valkyrie was throttled a bit, there is potential for more speed.

I don't think we explored all the possibilities, especially with the misfire and everyone walking away

 

[Supersubes]

The Valk has another thing going for it. It appears to be less dead than the 22 Nosler.


Light is right in regards to rifle weight too.

 

[Carlos Danger]

When you find the right combination it can be quite magical....

 

[roostercogburn98]

The Valk has another thing going for it. It appears to be less dead than the 22 Nosler.


Light is right in regards to rifle weight too.

You hit was I was thinking in regards to the 22 Nosler. It was horrendous in the semi auto platform. Brass didn’t stand a chance. Wonder if a bolt gun would allow some better results in brass life, which could lead to more interest and better long term love

 

[Reload10]

At distance I have found the heavier bullets to perform better. In 223 I shoot 50gr to 85.5gr. At 1800 yards I dont have to tell you which one got impacts.

Same with 6.5 creedmoor. I use 123gr eldm and 147gr eldm. I've stuck with 147gr for a reason.

In 300nm I have only tried 215gr. I do have some 178 eldm to try...maybe I'll be surprised this time?

 

[kriller134]

Dammmmmnnnnn what kind of gamer bipod is that, that uses an avil?

 

[Lowlight]

I think the 136 over the 147, yes the 123gr is very light, and I would only use that for a competition, less recoil than the 147 and if you are pushing it fast inside 1000k, tell me you'll stick with a 147 and I'll buy you case, but if you say I am shooting to subsonic ranges, sure, the 147.

if you are floating rounds to 1800, yes, the heavier, but you are not really doing anything for score, so you notice better hits at 1800s with a 147, that is actually a silly debate.

and honestly if that is your true metric, it's not a very good, you are not comparing in the supersonic range so you're wasting our time really with the numbers, that is gonna benefit the heavier bullet.

But now do accuracy, drift and drop with supersonic bullet and the model changes

I can easily demonstrate a 250gr is better than a 300gr at distance but you can change the variables, go beyond supersonic and get the 300 to softball better, who cares.

 

[n2ishun]

About 15 years ago or so ??
I took a 223 and straightened the case walls, blew it out, sharpened the shoulder angle, and shortened the neck.
I made my own chamber reamer out of O1 steel.
It's not a Valk, it's not a AI....it's just a bit different but still in the same ballpark....kinda....sorta.
Chunk it in a Lilja 24" 1:8 twisty and see what happens.
Ain't gonna post powder and weights because some fool will try to replicate it and see how much shrapnel his face can consume.
I toss 90 Bergers with it.
It will reach way out there.
Someone bet me I couldn't take a 223 out to and past 1k yards.
Never bet me and give me time to whip something up
Yes it's a very dated rifle.
Yes no one would ever use a Swarovski professional hunter scope on a AR platform.
I could give a rats ass....I won the bet.

 

[Lowlight]

Guys,

I am not talking about floating rounds,

I can show you video after video of me shooting stuff past Max Effective

I am talking performance inside Max Effective, Still Supersonic

Yes, we can float things far, do it all the time.... this is about Balance

Balancing the weight and speed of the cartridge

 

[Lowlight]

Can you build it faster and lighter and get better performance over the standard offerings we have come to know over years

 

[Lowlight]

As an example,

I can take a box of 175gr bullets, call it 2650fps, now if I take a 160gr Warner and push it to 2800fps what does that do for my performance ?

Stuff like that, I have seen the 224V outperform an 18" 308 shooting 168s, so the question becomes, why shoot the short 308, why not a short 6.5 or something that reclaims the performance by going lighter

 

[n2ishun]

Hrm, I think I understand.
I suppose a relative question is what is the intended target ?
If it's just punching paper, that's simple.
I've seen a few times where pushing a light bullet too fast will give instability in flight tho, and honestly I'm unsure why they do that.
Someone smarter than me has probably figured out that already so I'll leave it alone.

Do you have any *specific* parameters you're looking at ?

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Ever shot a 243AI pushing a 55gn projo & stout dose of Powder? Coyotes always drop and my hold is “coyote”.

Of course im not larping the day away, so maybe you weren’t talking to me and I’ll go be dumb over there.

Stop telling them about lightweight Projos.

I like them all fighting to be GayTigers.

 

[hafejd30]

I like the idea of lighter and faster for the ranges mentioned. I think my AI with a kit for .224 variant would be awesome.

As times have evolved so have bullets. The lighter designs are much better than they used to be. It’s no longer just 155 scenar vs 175 smk

I think with ammo and components continuously going up we’ll see .224 popularity come back in the bolts

 

[W54/XM-388]

Well, if speed is your friend somebody needs to tell all the PRS type games places to pull their heads out of the sand and buy decent steel plates so they stop having stupid speed limits that keep everything from progressing in faster time to the target manner.

 

[W54/XM-388]

As an example,

I can take a box of 175gr bullets, call it 2650fps, now if I take a 160gr Warner and push it to 2800fps what does that do for my performance ?

Stuff like that, I have seen the 224V outperform an 18" 308 shooting 168s, so the question becomes, why shoot the short 308, why not a short 6.5 or something that reclaims the performance by going lighter

Part of the issue of everybody chasing new stuff is that nobody really put any effort in a factory way into changing some of the previous stuff to be setup for better BC bullets that were longer and people are too stuck on magazine lengths and everyone wanting short actions and short magazines.

In a standard long barrel bolt .308 the 155gr stuff easily can go 2850 to 2900 fps without any problem (the Lapua factory stuff is roughly 2850), so put in a bullet with that weight, but a much better design and BC and then folks would stop going on about how the .308 can't compete with the newer cooler stuff.

It's why I always kind of think it's funny when folks talk about how fast their 6.5cm rifles are, because I'm like, well I'm shooting a 155gr at 2850+ in a .308 and you are going how fast again?

Just as in the .338LM the factory 250gr loads go close to the 3000fps mark but are hindered by magazine length and stubby bullet design, better, longer mags or single feed and a better BC more modern bullet and it's going to do a lot of nice stuff.

You take a step up from there and do some modern high BC light bullets in the 30-06 and 6.5x55 and push them even further.

 

[Lowlight]

You need a really long barrel, the problem was bathe length to push the 155s to the desired 2950fps

To me the balance includes barrel length

As an example, finding a better balance in the 308, yes s 155 at 2950, what do you need to get that. How about a 20” barrel now?

With 46grs of 2000Mr you can get 2700fps with a 185, so what would that mean for a 155 ?

Or better yet as noted a 175 is already a balance, guys used to shoot 208s out of a 308 too, about the heaviest I have seen, so a 185 can still be light in the context of the caliber.

My thought is, think different, change the bullet, adjust the powder

I can build something really great to shoot a 147, a 153, sure but what can I do with existing stuff the hell’s the gun and shooter vs building it around the bullet.

We can do a ton, almost unlimited in application, but what can we do to make existing better. Change the load.

 

[Jrb572]

What would be a good bullet choice for a 260?

 

[W54/XM-388]

You need a really long barrel, the problem was bathe length to push the 155s to the desired 2950fps

To me the balance includes barrel length

As an example, finding a better balance in the 308, yes s 155 at 2950, what do you need to get that. How about a 20” barrel now?

With 46grs of 2000Mr you can get 2700fps with a 185, so what would that mean for a 155 ?

I'm a sucker for long barrels, so I run 26"+ barrels it makes it easy to get speed.
(But I also don't do any of the whole moving around business)

I'm currently thinking about getting a .223 rifle with a 26" barrel to see how it would work getting some of the stuff in the high 70s and mid 80s up to a decent speed.

 

[lash]

What would be a good bullet choice for a 260?

The 130-136g offerings are about ideal imo. They still fit mag length.

 

[Lowlight]

What would be a good bullet choice for a 260?

136 is king

 

[RFutch]

Absolutely love shooting my Valkyrie. Your initial YouTube videos with Brian Whalen got me hooked on it.

88s at 2880 and zero recoil.

 

[lash]

I like mine a lot, though I built an AR version because at the time, boxes of AE were available for $14. That made it an affordable choice that I didn’t have to load for. I now sorta wish I’d built a bolt instead. Ah well, choices.

 

[n2ishun]

Dunno why, but my head is now stuck on the old Remington accelerator round.
Anyone else remember those ? A 30-06 with a saboted 55gr 223 bullet ?
I might even have a few still :/ I think they went 4000 fps or so ?
Looks like they are still out there...maybe ?

Remington Express Ammo 30-06 Springfield Accelerator 55 Grain Pointed

The classic "Green-box" ammunition that shooters and hunters have trusted for years. Remington makes ammunition for nearly every need. This ammunition...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[rope]

I am talking hunting, I run 123, 130 and 136 in my 260’s and 6.5 creed. In 6.5 SAUM’s its 127 lrx and 139 scenars. Caribou, moose, Dall sheep, bear, wolf and coyotes die like thunder struck. Barrel lengths between 18” and 24” these are all hunting rigs and may either be slung or in a backpack . My last 3 rigs have been 20” and 22”. The older I get the more I like carrying lighter smaller rigs.

@lowlight The Snipershide rifle sounds like some of the above. Looking forward to this.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Dunno why, but my head is now stuck on the old Remington accelerator round.
Anyone else remember those ? A 30-06 with a saboted 55gr 223 bullet ?
I might even have a few still :/ I think they went 4000 fps or so ?
Looks like they are still out there...maybe ?

Remington Express Ammo 30-06 Springfield Accelerator 55 Grain Pointed

The classic "Green-box" ammunition that shooters and hunters have trusted for years. Remington makes ammunition for nearly every need. This ammunition...

www.midwayusa.com

Saboted bullets never seemed to have worked well as far as accuracy was concerned.

 

[tk427]

Circle of shooting life = circle of caliber. And the next best / last best / current best / latest best .17 - .375 caliber

i.e

6mm CM vs .243win vs 6br for example

OR

. 224val vs .223 / .223ai vs 22-250/ 22 cm / 22NOSLER

Or The next set.....there's always overlap, compromise, discussion, objection..mine is better because etc.

The point will always be BUY / LOAD / WILDCAT to meet a need. Compete or smack a Coyote - shoot at the moon whatever.

Frank's point could be easily missed, there is a very valid point to look at what your shoot, at what distance, versus recoil expectation, versus expected target performance, versus dollar investment, versus at the end of the day USER SATISFACTION

FWIW I use .22LR, .223, 22CM,
243, 6CM, 6.5CM,. 308, .300wm, .45/70 across soooooo many bullets weights together to meet my needs such as target, plinking, huntintg, varmint, and a little LR that I think might have 16ish different loads several overlap

I'm sure somewhere in there I can match Franks..224V parameters BUT his point is NOT lost on me at all and there is an obsession to chase ballistic versus matching the performance to you requirement

Cheers all

 

[Maxduty]

Dunno why, but my head is now stuck on the old Remington accelerator round.
Anyone else remember those ? A 30-06 with a saboted 55gr 223 bullet ?
I might even have a few still :/ I think they went 4000 fps or so ?
Looks like they are still out there...maybe ?

Remington Express Ammo 30-06 Springfield Accelerator 55 Grain Pointed

The classic "Green-box" ammunition that shooters and hunters have trusted for years. Remington makes ammunition for nearly every need. This ammunition...

www.midwayusa.com

Saboted bullets never seemed to have worked well as far as accuracy was concerned.

Used those for ground hogs back on the east coast. Basically mortaring them to the intended target and better luck with a scratch off ticket than a hit.

 

[TACC]

Dunno why, but my head is now stuck on the old Remington accelerator round.
Anyone else remember those ? A 30-06 with a saboted 55gr 223 bullet ?
I might even have a few still :/ I think they went 4000 fps or so ?
Looks like they are still out there...maybe ?

Remington Express Ammo 30-06 Springfield Accelerator 55 Grain Pointed

The classic "Green-box" ammunition that shooters and hunters have trusted for years. Remington makes ammunition for nearly every need. This ammunition...

www.midwayusa.com

They came out screaming but I could never get them to group worth a damn.

 

[tk427]

Edit...and FWIW......I drafted that last paragraph at the.bar.....apologies for the bad Gramar

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Watching to see some numbers from the 6.5cm guys. I stuck with 130s, and sometimes wonder if I should bump up to 140. Most of my shooting is 610y and under, so I’m not sure if I would benefit from the 140s from my understanding.

I shot my 130 otm to 1200 at Arena with Chris Roberts just a few weeks ago. There's definitely something to be said for traveling light, and shooting lighter too. I know Chris likes the .224V, and given the success in the bolt gun world of the round, I am definitely considering it again. The 85.5 just looks ideal, but I'm not sure how different that is than my 223- with a 75gr bullet . I shoot it at pretty good speeds. I guess it's a little bit of a step up in speed and "normal" bullet weights.....

At any rate, the 224V is a cool round for a bolt.

 

[Jrb572]

136 is king

Thank you Sir

 

[SquarePizza]

Semi off topic, but @lowlight , why don't you consider a group buy of a build around the 224Valk? I know the group buy thread is for an NRL rifle, but in some ways I think this could be more exciting and perhaps cheaper which might get more guys on board.

The energy that you are pouring into this round could translate into developing a cult following for it on the hide, where guys are involved, excited, sharing their experiments and just having fun without thought of being competitive some event. In short, why not create a group buy around this round and encourage everyone to just be a kid again?

 

[carbonbased]

If you go down further in caliber, if you are not long-distance target shooting but instead trying to hit small animals within 500 yds (this sure feels like long-distance due to smaller and moving targets):

26" barrel, .204, factory ammo, extremely flat shooting

1. 32g Hornady = 4225 fps
2. 40g Hornady = 3900 fps and better wind drift. This is what I like to shoot.
3. Cut barrel down 6" and lose ~180 fps
4. I wonder how far out one could push .204 with reloads and really high BC bullets (that may not exist)?

Faster twist 22-250 is interesting, but there is no heavier factory ammo, and I'm a factory ammo guy. Maybe 22 Creed (eventually) to the rescue?

But the thing is seeing the hits within 200-500 yds, and .204 can do that. I don't think 22-250 can, & I don't know about 22 Creed.

 

[bodhisafa]

Without people chasing gear this website would be an empty shell in a lot of ways, fortunately, we all chase gear so I have nothing to worry about.

Light is Right !

In more ways than not, Light is Right. In terms of color and camouflage, light is better. I mean, who wants to carry a heavy pack, we'd all like a little less weight on our shoulders. When it comes to bullets, light is right too.

I know I am gonna sound like a broken record, but reality demands I report my findings to you guys. So in the spirit of knowledge transfer here we go...

Light wins,

To prove my Point I am gonna focus on Chris Robert's Rifle here in this picture
View attachment 7832626

That ^^^^ My Friends is a brand new 224 Valkyrie. Now ask yourself, who in 2022 is dumb enough to build a Valkyrie ? I fully admit that when I my Daughter's kids grow up, there probably wont be a 224V on the shelf. If there is, it's will some bargain bin, 75gr American Eagle leftover that nobody wants but the nostalgic.

I mean, I just showed you a custom made 224V/6.8 bolt head I have for an Accuracy International. Why on Earth would I waste my time on custom 224V build for an AI rifle - Dumb.

But this weekend, I again saw excellence....

I saw Chris take a shooter who was excited to shoot a target at 264 yards get a 1st round hit at 1200... 1200 yards, with this rifle.

Speed wins, Speed Kills, Speed is our friend... What is the best way to get speed, reduce the weight of the bullet, and it doesn't have to be a lot in the context of our shooting.

We are talking, we are comparing notes, we even spoke to people like Federal trying "relaunch" the Valkyrie with a new understanding of the round and our success in a bolt action rifle. None of the struggles and all of the hype, seriously. Won't happen, but it's fun to talk.

Even the bad ammo, works in our bolt guns.

So what does all this mean.... Absolutely nothing.

it means we are having fun, having success with a dead cartridge, but the caliber is alive and well which is all we need. Pushing a .22 caliber bullet at 2750fps to 2900fps lets us play around on the cheap. This stuff costs nothing to try.... if we can finesse, fine tune, enable a neat little pet load that works for the group... boom. Maybe it's an 80gr load, maybe it's 85.5gr, 90gr, we don't know where it takes us.

We hear about guys doing a little Mexican match, take the 75gr American Eagle at $8 a box, pull the bullet, drop in a 77gr SMK, oh wait, what is that... how about trying this with the bad 90s... drop in an 85.5 with the same BC. If you get that bullet to 2800fps, drop to 1k is a 6.5CM or better...

I know, waste of time, telling stories nobody wants to repeat.

Light rifle, around 10LBS shooting a light caliber, light modular pack, rapid engagements and movement, accuracy, no recoil, no heat, longer barrel life, what is not to like ...

We tend to go too heavy, the 6.5s work better under 140 grains, the 338 under 290grain, even the move from 230 to 225, or even 215gr, we see improvements. As you think about the upcoming shooting season, drop about 6 -10grs off your bullet weight and see what happens.

Indulge me,

If you handload, try this, instead of a 140 class of bullet, go 136gr to 123gr and see what you think be curious. Some of you non Competitor types who reload and plink alot, run the numbers, create the loads and try it. Give us some numbers.

Things that make you go... HMMM

What action has a 6.8 SPC bolt head ?

 

[padom]

What action has a 6.8 SPC bolt head ?

TL3 and Origin

 

[beretta_man11]

I like the thought of the 224v to get my niece started in PRS someday, I'm between that and 6arc.

However, I hunt with a 22creed, and its stupid fast with 75gr at 3400fps, and 88gr at 3200fps. Straight up killer.

 

[Steel head]

The 130-136g offerings are about ideal imo. They still fit mag length.

After years of 140 and heavier I’m really like the 130’s

 

[Mike Casselton]

If you go down further in caliber, if you are not long-distance target shooting but instead trying to hit small animals within 500 yds (this sure feels like long-distance due to smaller and moving targets):

26" barrel, .204, factory ammo, extremely flat shooting

1. 32g Hornady = 4225 fps
2. 40g Hornady = 3900 fps and better wind drift. This is what I like to shoot.
3. Cut barrel down 6" and lose ~180 fps
4. I wonder how far out one could push .204 with reloads and really high BC bullets (that may not exist)?

Faster twist 22-250 is interesting, but there is no heavier factory ammo, and I'm a factory ammo guy. Maybe 22 Creed (eventually) to the rescue?

But the thing is seeing the hits within 200-500 yds, and .204 can do that. I don't think 22-250 can, & I don't know about 22 Creed.

Berger (and others) used to manufacture 50 and 55gr projectiles for the 204 bore.
They were designed to be shot at long range.
Most users shot them from 20 PPC and 20-BR setups.


For even less recoil, you could use the 20 Vartarg, 17 Mach IV (17 Fireball) or the 17 Remington.
Small targets at 500+ yards is quite easy until the wind picks up a little bit.

I also regularly shoot 58 and 65gr V-Max from my 6-BR to 800 yards on 4" and 10" plates.

It makes the shooting more challenging (and rewarding) than lobbing 140s from the Manbun.

 

[WhiteDingo]

TL3 and Origin

ARC as well.

 

[Steel head]

ARC as well.

 

[iceng]

Magazines.... What mags reliably feed, and hold 10 round of SPC sized brass, without modification, on a bolt action system ?

 

[Chickentoast]

Lighter projectiles are great, as long as they don't sacrifice more BC than the corresponding gain in velocity, when each is expressed as a wind hold. Unfortunately, the only "light" projectiles that win that battle are solids

 

[VSP968]

@lowlight, after seeing the results you and @padom have posted up with the 224V, I had LRI build me this ridiculous Krieger barreled thing with .110 freebore …

I started load development but got distracted with other stuff and it was fucking cold outside but it seems to do pretty well with 90VLDs and 95SMKs.

Now that the weather has begun to turn, I’ll get back to it….

 

[Keith Maggard]

Not a 224V but I just started playing with a new 22GT running 90gr VLDs at 3250
Only have 60rds through it but it shows real promise