Advanced Marksmanship Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

S

Stealth-X

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Minuteman
May 2, 2008
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Corvallis, OREGON
#1
Hi guys. I'm pretty much a n00b when it comes to higher powered precision shooting and was hoping for a couple of tips.

There are probably varying preferences to my questions, but I would just like to hear them and judge for myself.

I will be shooting a .308 and wondered about, as the title states, barrel cooldown times and frequency of cleaning.

Do you guys fire a round that you won't be counting for your group to warm things up and then shoot a 5 shot group without waiting much between shots?

Do you fire each round from a cold barrel, and if so, how long do you wait between shots?

Do you clean your barrel every 5, 10, 50 rounds or after every trip to the range?

I'm a fan of boresnakes, is there some reason to go another route with precision rifles?

Is the first shot after cleaning (a fouling shot) a throw away or is that just rumor?

I've also heard that where precision .223 shooting does fine with rests and loose holds where the rifle slides back, .308s shoot better when held as tightly into the shoulder as possible. Any thoughts on this? I'd prefer not to have to be too entirely anal (benchrest fluff) because it seems to me that if I have a natural point of aim and the scope is held at the right spot and I don't flinch or jerk, I should hit what I'm aiming at, but maybe I really do need to learn to ninja-slow my heart to be any good with a rifle
wink.gif


Thanks for your inputs.

Regards,
Nate
 
#3
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

I am familiar with this function you call "search." I searched for: clean, cleaning, cool and cooldown in the subject lines.

It did not help.

And I can make no sense of your phrases about the corral and the popcorn; maybe it's an inside joke.

Regards,
Nate
 
#4
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

You present some interesting questions Stealth.

Please allow bolt and a couple of others to shit on your thread for awile. Hopefully a couple of shooters will chime in with some insight.

A few of your questions have been asked and argued here with no clear resolution. For some points it comes down to presonal preferance (such is art), just find a couple of shooters on this site and read thier posts.

Spend some time around here, you'll figure out for yourself who's who.

Keep shoot'n bro.
 
#5
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

To start, I don't clean my bore unless it won't shoot MOA or better (i havn't gotten to that point, ever)

As far as using a shot as a warm up (i'm guessing for the rifle and not you) before shooting groups, Why? do you plan on taking a warm up shot if let say your out hunting before you take the real shot at the animal. The real answer to that is every shot you take should be taken as if it is the only shot your going to get and you will have to live with those results forever.

Most of the rest of your questions are better answered in the online trainging programe provided here on the hide by Lowlite (Frank). It will cover pretty much everything YOU can do to make each shot count. You talk about "if i don't flinch or pull the shot". You will find that its not if you don't mess up the shot or as Frank puts it "Push the shot", Its wether or not you do everything right.

I hope you try to look past your feelings about this stuff and take it as its writen. I know of to many new members that get their feeling hurt and don't take the sage advice given.

Good luck and welcome.
 
#6
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">me thinks you may wish to savvy the search function....the corral has much dead meat in it already.....


my popcorn popper is now over the daily limit...... </div></div>

I think what BR is saying is that this topic is a dead horse. and that it has been beaten way to much lately. You will also find that the popcorn refernce is when people come in a post about topics that are going to get into a serious debate where to many people get their feelings hurt. To answer your question i dont clean my barrels unless i notice a drop off of normal accuracy(sub MOA) then ill clean. Bore snakes are good in a pinch, but you will want a bore guide and one piece cleaning rod for good cleaning. As far as your first shot, every time you go to the range make a note of where your cold bore shot impacts. Then once you have done this 5-6 times and its pretty much the same place, use a hold for that first shot. Hope some of this helps
 
#7
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

Nate,

If you read through the 7,539 cleaning/breaking in threads, you'll see where Boltripper is coming from. It really is tedious.

The consensus is all shots count so you need to learn where they'll go cold bore.

As to barrel temp., I have shot mine to where the heat shimmer was visible in the scope and still accuracy was unchanged. On really cold days, obviously the barrel cools more quickly.

when things start going to hell, I run a couple 168 GMMKs as a control. If they aren't in, or damn close to, one ragged hole, then it's me getting sloppy, an optic problem, a loose bolt or screw or a dirty barrel.

I pretty much hold any rifle, as much as possible, the same way, regardless of calibre. The recoil of the .308, while more robust than a .223, all other things equal, is still pretty mild.

If you give Boltripper dibs on your once fired brass, I'm sure he'll show you his acclaimed yoga methods for acheiving inner calmn. For Lapua brass, he'll work on your Chi.
 
#9
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

I've been posting here for a long time, and I try to remain consistent. The consensus here varies a lot, and changes with time. Right now there is a strong element which discounts the value of frequent cleaning. Without attempting to contradict or inflame, this is what I've tried to stick with.

For me, cleaning isn't about accuracy, it's about barrel maintenance. My primary concern is electrolytic corrosion.

For instance, a dry cell battery generally consists of carbon, some kind of relatively active metal (often zinc, but copper works too, as well as barrel steels), and a sort of goo that contains moisture and some sort of acidic or alkaline salt. As the process occurs, metallic ions are created, and electrons migrate to the carbon. Eventually the process eats at the metal and leaves it pitted, while the electron transfer generates a small direct electric current.

The metals, carbon, and salts are are all present within the bore once fouling accumulates, and the atmosphere provides sufficient moisture to initiate the process, while also providing some oxygen to add straight oxidation to the process as well. Said oxidation proceeds more actively in the presence of an electric current

Good for batteries, not so good for bores.

Well, if you shoot every few days, the goo gets cooked and dried, and the process abates for awhile, until atmospheric moisture can re-accumulate. The oxygen is always there. Shoot often enough and the whole thing gets put on temporary hold. Put that rifle aside for awhile, and it resumes; how much and how fast being dependent of the degree of fouling and the amount of atmospheric moisture. Obviously some areas are more moist than others.

Cleaning removes most of this. Seldom all, and trying to get it all is both futile and destructive.

Opponents of frequent cleaning make a valid point when they advise that cleaning causes more harm than firing. The crux, however, isn't whether firing repeatedly on a fouled bore is bad, but rather, whether electrolysis is more harmful than cleaning.

Unchecked, it is. Folks who shoot frequently can duck this bullet indefinitely, but once the rifle stands and accumulates moisture in the bore, the process resumes, inexorably.

<span style="font-style: italic">One cannot accumulate the components of the electrochemical process and expect the laws of physics to abate themselves simply because one disbelieves in them.</span>

I clean my centerfire rifles after each shooting session. My point is very simple. To paraphrase the Brillo ad; there's no rust while the bore still shines. More importantly, the coat of oil I lay down afterward inside the bore forms an effective barrier to moisture and oxygen, and the cleaning gets the goo out, so the chemical components required for electrolysis are absent. If, for some seriously emergent reason, I cannot clean; I at least try to oil the bore until I can.

It's not about how many rounds you shoot. It's about whether you choose to maintain or neglect your bore afterward.

When it comes to my bores; I'll choose physics over anecdotal evidence. The things I've been doing all along have never stopped working for me. If you wear out your bore by cleaning, maybe you need to learn more about how to clean your bore without abusing it in the process. Properly fitted bore rod guides can make a hugely beneficial difference in this respect.

Hot bores and accuracy?

If you can't hold the back side of your palm in contact with any portion of your barrel indefinitely, it's too hot. Period. If your shooting regimen breaks this rule, you either change chamberings to one that doesn't heat up the engine room so badly, or you live with decreased accuracy and increased throat erosion that is the price paid for breaking this rule. If you handload, all I will say is that your load development should be done under the conditions where you intend to use the load. If that condition involves a certain cadence of sustained fire with a warmed up barrel, then that's the condition where ladder testing will reveal the most useful information. If you don't handload, this option remains unavailable to you.

Hard hold, light hold?

Neither is especially preferable, it's an equation that A) depends on you and your rifle, and primarily how it performs according to 'hold'; and B) the hold is nowhere near being the only significant issue in this question.

Bore snakes? I don't own any.

Bore brush? Great for spreading the solvent evenly, I flush the brush with alcohol immediately afterward. Scrubbing? Probabaly ineffective; bore fouling is tough stuff that likely responds best to slow dissolution in a bore that's properly saturated with right solvent(s). I like the bore foams, they don't need any brushing to get good distribution.

I am in no wise any sort of expert or authority on anything. I just try to figure out whether what I'm being told is true and then go with what I can agree with based on my own experiences.

Welcome aboard. The prime value of this site is in the multiplicity of viewpoints it reflects.

Greg
 
#10
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

While the chemistry lesson is over the top in my KISS world, I whole heartedly agree with Greg's cleaning process. I have never seen a patch and Butch's wear out a barrel. Or erode accuracy.
I shoot BR some. I see a lot of different thought processes on barrel cleaning there. Some clean after every relay. Some clean after every other, etc. I clean only between matches. This means around 40-45 rounds before cleaning. I never see an issue with accuracy degrading and some of my best groups are well into a five target match. It does take a couple of fouling shots to get my confidence in shot placement again though.
Barrel heat is not good. I have seen the effects close up with a bore scope. Fire cracking and throat erosion. I have a barrel that shows quite a bit of both and still shoots under 1/2 MOA. It does seem to make them harder to clean though.
Barrels wear out! I think that is physics. Maybe chemistry too.
Life is too short to worry about barrel wear, cleaning, etc. Just enjoy the friends and accomplishment you will get from shooting.
 
#11
Re: Cleaning Freq. and Barrel Cooldowns

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stealth-X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you guys fire a round that you won't be counting for your group to warm things up and then shoot a 5 shot group without waiting much between shots?</div></div>

That depends on what your goal is. Are you shooting groups for the sake of shooting groups? Or are you shooting groups as training for something else. For ME that FIRST shot is the MOST important shot out of my rifle. I shoot groups to verify that the rifle and equipment is functioning as it should. I shoot other targets to make sure "I" am functioning as I should.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you fire each round from a cold barrel, and if so, how long do you wait between shots?</div></div>

Refer to my answer above.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you clean your barrel every 5, 10, 50 rounds or after every trip to the range?</div></div>

I clean it when it needs cleaning. Accuracy is my guide. The exception is if I am going to store it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a fan of boresnakes, is there some reason to go another route with precision rifles?</div></div>

Some use them, some don't. I am not a fan. I don't think a boresnake does anything good for your barrel. Unless you are washing it after every pull, then it's the same crap going back INTO the barrel. A Dewey Coated Rod, Lucas Bore Guide, and a Parker Hale Jag is your best bet for cleaning with the smallest possibility of harming the bore.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the first shot after cleaning (a fouling shot) a throw away or is that just rumor?</div></div>

For me, every shot counts. You can learn from EACH one. They should all be fired with intent.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also heard that where precision .223 shooting does fine with rests and loose holds where the rifle slides back, .308s shoot better when held as tightly into the shoulder as possible. Any thoughts on this?</div></div>

Find what works for you. Bipods are not conductive to "free recoil" shooting. Higher recoiling rifles will dot your eye if you hold too loosely when shooting from a ruck.

I suggest you seek out professional training or at the least subscribe to the SH Online Training section.
 
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