Night Vision Clip ons clip ons clip ons!!!

[DownRangeThermal]

I dont want to derail this thread too much....

From a mathematical standpoint UNITY means 1. So when talking about clip on thermal sights it means that the little display your dvo is looking at is exactly 1.0x to agree with the outside environment. Not 1.2 or 1.05 or 1.003x. Turning a diopter on a device that is UNITY can alter that. For example lets say you're holding a skeetir up to your right eye with both eyes open and your looking at a person 20 feet away. With diopter set correctly to UNITY that person blends perfectly between both eyes. The top of the guys head lines up perfectly both visually and through the thermal. The real world and the thermal are in perfect UNITY together. So if I were to turn that diopter a bit I could misalign the top of the guys head between my two eyes. Now you don't have a UNITY display and you would introduce error in your poi especially when using high magnification in your dvo and/ or Dialing your turrets.
So basically if your skeetir diopter is set perfectly to UNITY then it should work the way it was intended. Adjustable diopters are needed when working with differing human eyeballs so they're typically employed on multi use devices like the skeetir that will have a hand held or helmet mount role....so the guy with 20/40 near sight vision can still have a clear image.

Parallax introduced from your dvo is another related topic we can cover later.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I’m more of a “working definitions” guy than a dictionary definitions guy, so someone may try to correct me from a dictionary standpoint, but in common usage on the Hide over the last few years…

UNITY is getting the image SIZE correct. If you already have a true 1X thermal it is already at “unity”. If a thermal has a 3X front end architecture, it needs 3X demagnification so that the end result is your day scope seeing things at “1X”.

COLLIMATION is getting the screen LOCATION correct, either through a prism or through adjusting the margins on the screen “sighting in the screen”.

Lining up the various day/night scopes in the same optical plane is a good idea. It helps with collimation but it (in itself) isn’t collimation.

Similarly, adjusting a thermal’s diopter removes parallax and will help, but it (in itself) does not collimate the device. It’s is possible to have a perfectly adjusted diopter and be nowhere near collimated.

Good stuff and makes sense to me.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I dont want to derail this thread too much....

From a mathematical standpoint UNITY means 1. So when talking about clip on thermal sights it means that the little display your dvo is looking at is exactly 1.0x to agree with the outside environment. Not 1.2 or 1.05 or 1.003x. Turning a diopter on a device that is UNITY can alter that. For example lets say you're holding a skeetir up to your right eye with both eyes open and your looking at a person 20 feet away. With diopter set correctly to UNITY that person blends perfectly between both eyes. The top of the guys head lines up perfectly both visually and through the thermal. The real world and the thermal are in perfect UNITY together. So if I were to turn that diopter a bit I could misalign the top of the guys head between my two eyes. Now you don't have a UNITY display and you would introduce error in your poi especially when using high magnification in your dvo and/ or Dialing your turrets.
So basically if your skeetir diopter is set perfectly to UNITY then it should work the way it was intended. Adjustable diopters are needed when working with differing human eyeballs so they're typically employed on multi use devices like the skeetir that will have a hand held or helmet mount role....so the guy with 20/40 near sight vision can still have a clear image.

Parallax introduced from your dvo is another related topic we can cover later.

Good stuff and makes sense. Thanks. I now have a better understanding of what UNITY really means.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

On a thermal....collimation is sensor and display being in perfect alignment. .....edit...........and eyepiece not altering that relationship to your day optic.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So does the SkeetIR or Voodoo S have the ability to adjust the margins or are they just perfectly aligned with the sensor and display such that they are a true plug and play.

 

[Evolution 9]

On a thermal....collimation is sensor and display being in perfect alignment. .....edit...........and eyepiece not altering that relationship to your day optic.

No, it’s more than that.

If sensor and display are in perfect alignment, but pointed in a slightly different direction than the day scope (it will ALWAYS be pointed slightly different) you will have point of impact deviations.

Something may have been lost in translation from the engineer you talked with. There is more engineering at play, either a prism or some other wizardry.

If it was about making the display true to its own sensor, then you could collimate a commercial clip on just one time, and then move it from gun to gun to gun. But we all know you can’t.

Military thermal clip ons work even when out of line (20 MOA rails, etc.)

Getting the display perfectly lined up with the sensor only helps if the sensor is pointed perfectly in line with the scope (which will never happen).

Turn your phone camera on.
Hold your finger above your screen over an item in the center of the field of view (to simulate your crosshairs).
Now angle your phone to the left.

Your finger is no longer over the item.
This has nothing to do with the alignment of your phone’s screen to its lense…

It happened because your phone was angled to the left…

The same thing happens when you mount a clip on without a prism (or some other wizardry.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

So does the SkeetIR or Voodoo S have the ability to adjust the margins or are they just perfectly aligned with the sensor and display such that they are a true plug and play.

They should be digitally aligned and plug and play as long as no error is introduced as described above.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I dont want to derail this thread too much....

From a mathematical standpoint UNITY means 1. So when talking about clip on thermal sights it means that the little display your dvo is looking at is exactly 1.0x to agree with the outside environment. Not 1.2 or 1.05 or 1.003x. Turning a diopter on a device that is UNITY can alter that. For example lets say you're holding a skeetir up to your right eye with both eyes open and your looking at a person 20 feet away. With diopter set correctly to UNITY that person blends perfectly between both eyes. The top of the guys head lines up perfectly both visually and through the thermal. The real world and the thermal are in perfect UNITY together. So if I were to turn that diopter a bit I could misalign the top of the guys head between my two eyes. Now you don't have a UNITY display and you would introduce error in your poi especially when using high magnification in your dvo and/ or Dialing your turrets.
So basically if your skeetir diopter is set perfectly to UNITY then it should work the way it was intended. Adjustable diopters are needed when working with differing human eyeballs so they're typically employed on multi use devices like the skeetir that will have a hand held or helmet mount role....so the guy with 20/40 near sight vision can still have a clear image.

Parallax introduced from your dvo is another related topic we can cover later.

If the clip on has a reticle, it can help to turn it on. If not, dial up day scope magnification until you can see individual pixels.

Now, adjust the clip on diopter while moving your head up down left and right. You’ll notice the day scope crosshairs moving in relation to the clip on crosshairs (or pixels). Pretty soon, all movement between the two crosshairs will stop. That’s when you have it right.

As you’ve no doubt noticed, it’s much like removing day scope parallax just with a different thing being adjusted.

It’s worth noting that most people recommend having the day scope parallax set to infinity if the scope is so equipped.

I'll have to get back out and try this. I remember the scope crosshairs moving in relation thermal crosshairs but I was only adjusting the diopter for image quality and not paying attention to other effects it might have. I'm after a fairly niche usage here so haven't put the time into it. I mostly want this for daytime use on a carbine in front of a small lpvo. If the easiest way is to have it be a fixed 2.5-3x that's fine with me. We have a ton of cold heavily overcast days here and the nox is pretty useful in those conditions but I hate having my eye jammed in a cup during the day.

 

[jwramp]

They should be digitally aligned and plug and play as long as no error is introduced as described above.

Does a hand guard that is not perfectly parallel to where the zeroed scope is pointing count as “error”? As soon as you adjust windage or elevation on a day scope, it’s going out of parallel.

 

[Squibbler]

In the name of multi- functionality, why not make a locking diopter with a 1x unity detent. At least for the multi role sized units, it could provide the best to both use cases.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Does a hand guard that is not perfectly parallel to where the zeroed scope is pointing count as “error”? As soon as you adjust windage or elevation on a day scope, it’s going out of parallel.

So maybe in the situation you are describing JW, having the ability to adjust the margins might help get it lined up to compensate for funky hand guards. Dunno, just thinking out loud for some of the more knowledgeable to elaborate.

 

[cake5150]

In the name of multi- functionality, why not make a locking diopter with a 1x unity detent. At least for the multi role sized units, it could provide the best to both use cases.

Exactly what I've been thinking for years. If my old German Zeiss Z51 NV riflescope had that feature (albeit not for the same reason), why not integrate into a multi-role thermal?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Good stuff DRT. The Hide is a top source for gaining knowledge. Thanks

 

[jwramp]

Somewhat relevant patent on the i2 side for those interested in the cutaways and related patents at the bottom -
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7359114B2/

Another cool one, where Photonis wanted to pull the collimating prism out into its own device that threads on - https://patents.google.com/patent/US10234674B2/

 

[Evolution 9]

Thanks for the info and PM. I hope someday we can get a more full explanation of exactly what they do to make this work. Not necessary for most of us to know, but interesting anyway.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Somewhat relevant patent on the i2 side for those interested in the cutaways and related patents at the bottom -
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7359114B2/

Another cool one, where Photonis wanted to pull the collimating prism out into its own device that threads on - https://patents.google.com/patent/US10234674B2/

US7142357B2 - Night-day boresight with adjustable wedge-prism assembly - Google Patents

An in-line night-day boresight with an adjustable wedge-prism assembly is disclosed. The adjustable wedge-prism assembly includes two opposing wedge prisms that are axially rotatable relative to each other. The assembly is arranged in the optical path between the night optics and the day optics...

patents.google.com

Knights patent above...which through my personal experience works amazingly well.
If you look at these patents ie. #9-12 in the kac patent you see that the prism is a manufacturing tool while building to shift poi (2 independently rotating wedge prisms) to agree with day optic due to errors in manf processes. That same process can be done digitally at the individual pixel level in thermal using expensive machines.

 

[Squibbler]

Shit, my UTCxii will shift like crazy with angle and height changes but I've been told by engineers that's a product of the weird eyepiece design more than anything. Which would make sense why my lwts-lr with its large wide eyepiece was always dead nuts even on canted rails and multiple systems.

I can attest to this. I have tested the collimation on these two units. The LWTS-LR consistently gave me zero shift whereas the UTC gave me a .3L shift. I always attributed that shift for the mount height difference, UTC being 1.33" and my scope mount and LWTS-LR being 1.5". Would assume that for the UTC, that sweet spot on top of that convex lens is just physically smaller. I actually recalibrated the collimation on my UTC from the factory settings. The best I could tell each click value is .15mil movement of collimation. With the new collimation settings my UTC has had zero shift for my setups.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

I can attest to this. I have tested the collimation on these two units. The LWTS-LR consistently gave me zero shift whereas the UTC gave me a .3L shift. I always attributed that shift for the mount height difference, UTC being 1.33" and my scope mount and LWTS-LR being 1.5". Would assume that for the UTC, that sweet spot on top of that convex lens is just physically smaller. I actually recalibrated the collimation on my UTC from the factory settings. The best I could tell each click value is .15mil movement of collimation. With the new collimation settings my UTC has had zero shift for my setups.

100% it is the eyepiece and that's why they leave that ability in there.....of course with "proceed with caution "warnings that you're messing with the factory collimation.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Eyepiece optic design is so paramount in the LR Thermal clip ons.

 

[Squibbler]

100% it is the eyepiece and that's why they leave that ability in there.....of course with "proceed with caution "warnings that you're messing with the factory collimation.

I seen that, but I usually ignore warning signs..... Yeah I'm "that guy"

 

[WhereNow&How]

I seen that, but I usually ignore warning signs..... Yeah I'm "that guy"

Well they put the adjustment there for a reason.

 

[jstokes1]

Ooo..that looks VERY good. Very smooth image... I like. Will these ever be available?

 

[GTOJOSH]

How about something better for $5k less ......

About that...
Whatcha got?

 

[jstokes1]

About that...
Whatcha got?

He was referring to the EOTech Theon LR. I don't think it'll be better though as it has a FOV of 9⁰ as opposed to the UTC X/Xii FOV of 6⁰ (meaning more back end demag which allows you to run more optical mag through your day optic until the display is filled completely).

Now... the xELR has a FOV of 5.3⁰ and has now been tested by @StrictlyOffensivekit compared to the UTC Xii, to which it wins in high day optic mag ranges. That, and it's several thousands less than the UTC Xii while having a 10 year warranty.

 

[stefan73]

Got some shots through the DRS iws-i last night. The iws-i is brother to the fws-i unit that is currently program of record with Army. It does not have RTA but unlike the fws-i it does have hdr post processing which greatly enhances the image. My opinion...little guy is the king of small mil spec clip ons due to the eyepiece design. Zero distortion at any angle and fixed diopter.
View attachment 7811822View attachment 7811823View attachment 7811824

That is a nice piece of kit.

 

[Conqueror]

He was referring to the EOTech Theon LR. I don't think it'll be better though as it has a FOV of 9⁰ as opposed to the UTC X/Xii FOV of 6⁰ (meaning more back end demag which allows you to run more optical mag through your day optic until the display is filled completely).

Now... the xELR has a FOV of 5.3⁰ and has now been tested by @StrictlyOffensivekit compared to the UTC Xii, to which it wins in high day optic mag ranges. That, and it's several thousands less than the UTC Xii while having a 10 year warranty.

I think he was talking about the x-ELR the whole time. It's about $5k less than the Xii MSRP and is arguably better based on preliminary data and images.

 

[TheHorta]

I think he was talking about the x-ELR the whole time. It's about $5k less than the Xii MSRP and is arguably better based on preliminary data and images.

Based strictly upon image quality alone, very preliminary comparisons appear to favor the xELR by a modest, but measurable, amount.

That said, when you add in the whole package, I don’t think you can declare the Theon xELR the King of clip-ons just yet.

Once you get beyond the nominal improvement in image quality, the UTC-Xii overtakes the xELR in many other areas. The Xii is notably smaller and lighter and arguably tougher (the Xii is submersible to 66-feet, for those of us who routinely deploy from a Sea Wolf). The Xii supports TracIR out of the box, which is a big reason many people pay the exorbitant premium in the first place. The Xii is a proven quantity and has an unparalleled track record in the nastiest environments. Also, the Xii is now a whopping 8 years old (!!!) and today’s latest offerings are barely beginning to eclipse its legendary status.

So, the Ol’ Mare might have a few years left in her yet.

That said, I’m eagerly awaiting the xELR and will also compare the new suitor to both the UTC-Xii and the new Voodoo-M (which has TracIR as well and is a legit SOCOM deployed clip-on).

But, ultimately the Chicoms will win the day. They are pumping out “good enough” junk at an alarming rate and 99% of us don’t care about the heritage as long as we can save a few bucks.

That’s all the justification the average American needs.

 

[tangloppen]

Based strictly upon image quality alone, very preliminary comparisons appear to favor the xELR by a modest, but measurable, amount.

That said, when you add in the whole package, I don’t think you can declare the Theon xELR the King of clip-ons just yet.

Once you get beyond the nominal improvement in image quality, the UTC-Xii overtakes the xELR in many other areas. The Xii is notably smaller and lighter and arguably tougher (the Xii is submersible to 66-feet, for those of us who routinely deploy from a Sea Wolf). The Xii supports TracIR out of the box, which is a big reason many people pay the exorbitant premium in the first place. The Xii is a proven quantity and has an unparalleled track record in the nastiest environments. Also, the Xii is now a whopping 8 years old (!!!) and today’s latest offerings are barely beginning to eclipse its legendary status.

So, the Ol’ Mare might have a few years left in her yet.

That said, I’m eagerly awaiting the xELR and will also compare the new suitor to both the UTC-Xii and the new Voodoo-M (which has TracIR as well and is a legit SOCOM deployed clip-on).

But, ultimately the Chicoms will win the day. They are pumping out “good enough” junk at an alarming rate and 99% of us don’t care about the heritage as long as we can save a few bucks.

That’s all the justification the average American needs.

It has always blown my mind that some of these things have been in the “cool guys” inventory for so long, being king of the hill for so long.
I still recall when I bought my first MUM with MX10160C tube back in the day.
That was top tier then (12 years ago).

But, the cool guys were running filmless MX10160B tubes, nobody really knew about these mythical creatures back then.

What always tingle my gearwhore gene, is the thought “if they played with these things back then - then what do they have in their inventory now?”

Oh, and about the Oasys stuff being tough - that feature sure is needed in you case, although you don’t deploy from a sub, just swamps… it’s wet in any case.

Aaaand, you are right about the Chinese stuff, capitalism prevails.

 

[rlsmith1]

It has always blown my mind that some of these things have been in the “cool guys” inventory for so long, being king of the hill for so long.
I still recall when I bought my first MUM with MX10160C tube back in the day.
That was top tier then (12 years ago).

But, the cool guys were running filmless MX10160B tubes, nobody really knew about these mythical creatures back then.

What always tingle my gearwhore gene, is the thought “if they played with these things back then - then what do they have in their inventory now?”

Oh, and about the Oasys stuff being tough - that feature sure is needed in you case, although you don’t deploy from a sub, just swamps… it’s wet in any case.

Aaaand, you are right about the Chinese stuff, capitalism prevails.

Have thought this many times! I do know we can only take tech so far in some cases but then a new way of solving the problem comes around and changes everything again. I love it

 

[TheHorta]

Got some shots through the DRS iws-i last night. The iws-i is brother to the fws-i unit that is currently program of record with Army. It does not have RTA but unlike the fws-i it does have hdr post processing which greatly enhances the image. My opinion...little guy is the king of small mil spec clip ons due to the eyepiece design. Zero distortion at any angle and fixed diopter.
View attachment 7811822View attachment 7811823View attachment 7811824

I’ll bring an FWS-i to TX and we can compare.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Some video of the IWS-I at 100, 200 and beyond yards would be nice to view.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I hear DRS is releasing a cooled MWIR HD INOD to the public for $9K with 5 year warranty.

You should be getting close to being able to release some pics of your unit and thru the lens videos soon.

How much longer before the mailman arrives.

 

[Conqueror]

@DownRangeThermal ballpark how much would the IWS-I run if they could be sold to us mere mortals? More than a Voodoo-S?

 

[_Ares_]

Bringing this back to life a bit....


Has anyone had more actual hands on use with the Pulsar FXG50 yet?

 

[jstokes1]

Bringing this back to life a bit....


Has anyone had more actual hands on use with the Pulsar FXG50 yet?

I have. I tried shooting video through the scope, but it always comes out blurry therefore I never posted it.

 

[_Ares_]

I have. I tried shooting video through the scope, but it always comes out blurry therefore I never posted it.

Have you shot at a good distance with it? I saw on YT where they took it out to 1k yards. But I'd be happy taking it out to 500 or so.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I have. I tried shooting video through the scope, but it always comes out blurry therefore I never posted it.

Blurry is good, just not in Thermal or NV.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

Bringing this back to life a bit....


Has anyone had more actual hands on use with the Pulsar FXG50 yet?

TFB Review: Pulsar KRYPTON FXG50 - The Ultimate Thermal Vision Front Attachment?

Pulsar's latest creation is called the Pulsar Krypton FXG50, and it's a clip-on front attachment for the riflescope(s) that you already own.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Above should have some images through the lens, but as someone mentioned it's pretty difficult to get a good image from a camera. But the Krypton has an internal recording.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

Have you shot at a good distance with it? I saw on YT where they took it out to 1k yards. But I'd be happy taking it out to 500 or so.

That was my friend. I shot at 300 meters, no issues. 500-600 meters as well, but if you want to zoom in you're zooming into pixles but it works pretty well depending on the target. I wouldn't go hunting that way though, but for shooting steel it's pretty fun.

 

[Huskydriver]

Tell ya what, show me concrete proof or even a smidge of dealings you had with Felipe that went south.. and I’ll quit this site and leave you to your own misery.

That’s right ya can’t. And why? Because the internet chooses sides buddy. So when Felipe got into arguments and BS feuds (which he should of avoided as a business tbh) half of the main stays on here turned against him overnight. He never did shady business, he never fucked anyone over. @Eliteuas has 100% positive feedback and was here for commercial purposes. Arguing with chumps over the Internet got him booted… he lost some allies … but that doesn’t change the fact he’s a good dude and an honest business man. The MODS took his feedback rating down when he was banned, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t stellar. It was… im proud of my friendship with Felipe the owner of Elite Unlocked Aiming Solutions. Which FYI while we are on the topic recently had his rights restored , and was never a felon unlike the misinformation you jerks like spreading. He was 19 - 20 during his hospital stay for substance use. And you jokers pretend like ya didn’t do anything dumb as a young adult.

/rant over

This also aged well lol

 

[rlsmith1]

New year, any word of new clip ons headed our way? Personally, I would love a 12deg to 15deg compact clip on with a 640 or 1024 sensor. Seems like a 30mm to 40mm objective would accomplish this and allow for a compact and light package.

Andres Industries seems to have a great unit in the PumIR if they can get it to market

 

[Sendero_Man]

I was hoping Pulsar would put a LRF on the Krypton

 

[WhereNow&How]

I hear DRS is releasing a cooled MWIR HD INOD to the public for $9K with 5 year warranty.

Horta, you oughta have about a half dozen of these rounded up by now.

 

[COTTON_00]

I was hoping Pulsar would put a LRF on the Krypton

I was hoping to see nvision or .any others (I say nvision as I have first hand experience with there xrf and the rangefinder has worked well for me. I have no experience with the iray rangefinder.) Bring out a clip-on with an added rangefinder then one can see the range in the day optics. I see iray has few things coming in there mate and hybrid that allow rangefinder capabilities the hybrid also uses a newer version of the iray rangefinder the mate looks interesting but may be a bit large.
My perfect set up Clip on thermal with rangefinding capabilities paired with the new I'm hoping much lighter revic scope seems great for my uses

 

[Sendero_Man]

well,,,, new version. Great upgrades - battery on top, new firmware 2.0, user adj. interface, lighter, two versions, new display, now 8 colors, etc.

https://www.pulsar-nv.com/glo/products/33/thermal-imaging-attachments/krypton-2/

 

[culater]

well,,,, new version. Great upgrades - battery on top, new firmware 2.0, user adj. interface, lighter, two versions, new display, now 8 colors, etc.

https://www.pulsar-nv.com/glo/products/33/thermal-imaging-attachments/krypton-2/

Looking for the price on this one can't seem the find it

 

[Sendero_Man]

I talked to a couple dealers, they said they haven't gotten a SKU or pricing yet. Said they were told about mid year to get them.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

I had a look through them last week at IWA. And a lot of other clip-ons from other makers.

The Pulsar Krypton 2 would for sure be my first choice. Can't wait to try it out in the wild.

[IWA 2023] Pulsar Krypton 2 – Upgraded Thermal Imaging Attachments

Pulsar Krypton 2. Krypton 2 FXG50 and the Krypton 2 FXQ35. In addition, we present a new accessories line offering more variety of use of the clip on. Price

www.thefirearmblog.com

and

[IWA 2023] Pulsar Vision – Night Vision & Thermal News

Pulsar Vision Thermals 2023. The Firearm Blog is live at IWA OutdoorClassics 2023, the world's leading exhibition for hunting, shooting sports.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Jgunner]

I had a look through them last week at IWA. And a lot of other clip-ons from other makers.

The Pulsar Krypton 2 would for sure be my first choice. Can't wait to try it out in the wild.

[IWA 2023] Pulsar Krypton 2 – Upgraded Thermal Imaging Attachments

Pulsar Krypton 2. Krypton 2 FXG50 and the Krypton 2 FXQ35. In addition, we present a new accessories line offering more variety of use of the clip on. Price

www.thefirearmblog.com

and

[IWA 2023] Pulsar Vision – Night Vision & Thermal News

Pulsar Vision Thermals 2023. The Firearm Blog is live at IWA OutdoorClassics 2023, the world's leading exhibition for hunting, shooting sports.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Do they have an idea on pricing? Better image than the others or??

 

[Conqueror]

Still hoping someone can report on the new pixels on target shit from SHOT.