Gunsmithing Concentric Chambers ???

Speedarino

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Apr 11, 2017
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What builders currently reliably produce the tightest concentricity to bore in the chambering process? Which ones have the best accuracy/precision in the field?
Does near perfect chamber alignment with the bore make load development and node chasing less critical or even unnecessary?
I know of the big names across this great country and several smaller ones. Some may rest on previous laurels, while others maintain a higher level of quality control. Not interested in bashing anybody or starting a pissin contest. Just looking for info to keep getting smaller groups at long-distance.
Thanks for your support
 
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What builders currently reliably produce the tightest concentricity to bore in the chambering process? Which ones have the best accuracy/precision in the field?
Does near perfect chamber alignment with the bore make load development and node chasing less critical or even unnecessary?
I know of the big names across this great country and several smaller ones. Some may rest on previous laurels, while others maintain a higher level of quality control. Not interested in bashing anybody or starting a pissin contest. Just looking for info to keep getting smaller groups at long-distance.
Thanks for your support
The window of tune will be larger.
 
JMO...flame suit on.
But I think your concern is a bit overdone for the long-range discipline - unless maybe you're top-tier competiton.
Just sayin, your wind call alone at 1,000 yards is gonna have a gazillion times the importance of hitting your point of aim as compared to evaluating chamber alignment to a micron.

There's a lot of shit that goes into the consistency of a rifle and the individual driving it, seems to me we get a bit too much into the weeds for much of it- including those of us with just "better than average" skills.
 
Just pick one of the well known Smith's or manufacturers, read as many reviews that it takes to make you feel good about it. If any of them didn't do top notch work or were sloppy that word gets around pretty quick.
A few that seem to come up often for very high quality work is GAP, LRI and a few others. I went with Kelblys since I bought one of their actions and dont need to send the action to get a barrel threaded and chambered and if their work is good enough for benchrest shooters it's definitely good enough for me.
 
Nobody has torn down a bunch of custom rifles to evaluate chamber concentricity categorized by builder, so that data is unobtanium. I can also tell you that anybody who invests the time and money to be able to build a rifle will do it the exact same way, that being the best way they know how lol. When you choose a builder, you are paying for a probability that you’re rifle will shoot to the level of your expectations. I stress the word probability.

Chamber veracity is only one component contributing to rifle performance. Quality of the barrel is another and probably the greatest contributor. The consistency of the interaction between the barreled action and stock/chassis matters. The interaction between the rifle and optic matters. The mechanical integrity of the optic matters. The consistency of your ammo and its tailoring to your chamber matters. Ultimately, even for many good mass produced rifles, the interaction between the rifle and you will be the limiting factor in impacts downrange.

An excellent rifle for the type of guy who reads here will satisfy two criteria:

1) You’re proud to own it.
2) It will reliably shoot under 1/2” MOA with ammo you can reliably obtain by purchase or manufacture (reloading).

Notice the order in which I placed those two...

My personal picks are (in no particular order): Me (lol), Bob Gradous, John Beanland, Mike Rescigno, George Gardner, Chad Dixon, John Addis to name a few.

Best of luck to you and tell us what you ended up doing.
 
"What builders currently reliably produce the tightest concentricity to bore in the chambering process? Which ones have the best accuracy/precision in the field? "

-Every single one of us. Just ask us, we'll tell you.

This kind of question is really a bit silly. Personally, I don't care if a guy chambered a rifle with a Dewalt and if it has TIR with as big a number as anyone cares to stick in the conversation.

The bullet tells the truth.

If the rifle is producing the accuracy standard, then who really cares how, what, etc?

The truth is, the numbers folks like to quote are by and large fictional anyway. The inspection that I have seen everyone perform is always done with the barrel in the lathe. In ANY lathe you are going to have a tolerance stack. You are rotating on a set of bearings. Clearance has to be engineered into it for it to even work. Even a class 5 Tapered Gamut spindle bearing has clearance, which means there will be some runout. It's small, but its still there.

I have a lathe I paid north of $100,000 for in 2009. The spindle cartridge costs more than what a lot of guys paid for their entire machine. If we use that as a barometer, then I should be producing barrels with accuracy levels "X" better than brand "B".

I'm not. It would be a ridiculous statement to even try and claim that.


Let us really look at this for what it is:

1. Figure positional errors. The BEST cnc lathes repeat within a couple tenths (.0001's) and that is on a brand new machine. Get a few miles on it and stuff loosens up. If you think were all spending 5-6 thousand dollars on biannual PM's to check this stuff, were not. On a CNC, a lot of backlash error can be programmed out with parameter settings. On a manual, your going to have to resort to new parts once it gets bad.

2. Now factor in the clearance between the reamer and the pilot.

3. Now figure the TIR of the pilot itself.

4. Clearance between pilot and bore. It has to be able to move inside the hole. Barrels often have taper in them the first couple inches or so from lapping. So, what fits well at the saw cut on the breech end may very well sieze once you get down the hole a ways. That too must be considered prior to cramming the reamer in the bore.

5. Runout present in the barrel. They ALL do this. One out of a hundred might not as much. They don't shoot any better than the bananas do.

ALL of this adds to the value you are seeing on your $200 indicator. That is when taking a direct reading. Going the other way by stuffing some bushings and an arbor shaft down the hole only further aggravates the condition by a factor of "whateverth's of an inch."

To do this at the level where the answers become truthful, you need a well equipped metrology lab. That would mean a very large work envelope CMM. The kind that costs an absurd amount of money.

I once worked in a gear shop in Hudson, WI. I worked in the metrology lab. I programmed and ran a Zeiss/Hoffler CMM. It was a 1.5 million dollar machine. This was for creating what's a called a "K chart" on industrial transmission gears used by companies like Catepillar, Mack, etc for semi trucks. (one reason why they go north of 500,000 miles between overhauls.) These were on hobbed gears that are later ground, then polished.

I've yet to ever hear of anyone in the precision gun trade going to that level. It'd be pointless to do so as its literally cents on the dollar just to chamber it, shoot it, then decide whether its "good" or "bad". The ROI on a machine like that would take decades to capture.

Bottom line:

There is a long list of well vetted shops that frequent this forum. Chances are good that any of them is more than capable of delivering a barrel job that will meet the standard of what it takes to build an accurate rifle.

Hope this helps.

C.
 
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Thanks Gunny, glad you understand wind.
Focus on answering the questions, not interested in esoteric horse shit.

Knowing the wind is blowing 10 mph vs 6 will matter more on any rifle than knowing your rifle is chambered to half a tenth TIR vs a tenth and a half. It’s the farthest thing from esoterica. The guy you were so impolite to was telling you right and trying to help you. Also a “tight” chamber doesn’t always equal better accuracy and certainly not better function.
 
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I don’t even know what esoteric means. One of my sons is off at college and is getting into shooting. And he always messages me and tells me he wants an AK or some other flavor of the day. And I tell him I want a JP or some other high end custom gun. And one day he got mad at me for just spending money. Hahaha

I told him. Look. I worked my ass off for last 25 years. Now I have money. I like shooting. But I also like perfection. And buying some of these rifles is more about the pursuit of perfection than about me being PRS champion of the world.

Back to someone else’s point above about being proud to own it. Sometimes the pride comes from knowing the thing you own is a machining accomplishment that is as close to perfection as is possible.

So I can relate to the thirst for the info. But have no idea where you would actually get that info. I would assume that anyone guaranteeing 3/8 or less group sizes gets it fairly concentric.
 
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So I can relate to the thirst for the info.
That's understandable, but too much technical info in the hands of those that don't really understand its significance creates a whole bunch of problems.

There's a train wreck of a thread elsewhere on this site casting doubt on ARC's Nucleus action because a DIY'er "building" his own rifle didn't grasp the subtleties of trigger/cocking piece timing (something I know nothing about and so remain silent on) and a bunch of others piled on with their uninformed opinions.

In my own area of SME, the whole nitriding/DLC/coating thing is just a flood of ignorant/uninformed/technically incorrect statements all over this and other gun forums.

Imagine if professional riflesmiths started advertising the linear and geometric tolerances they hold on various features. This place would be awash with threads full of people with little to no understanding of those numbers and how they relate to rifle performance arguing endlessly about which is better. I bet most people here think that the concentricity of two cylindrical features defines the relationship between their surfaces. They are wrong. It only defines the relationship between their centerlines. There's a reason ASME Y14.5 (the bible of geometric dimensioning and tolerancing) is over 200 pages long.
 
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That's understandable, but too much technical info in the hands of those that don't really understand its significance creates a whole bunch of problems.

There's a train wreck of a thread elsewhere on this site casting doubt on ARC's Nucleus action because a DIY'er "building" his own rifle didn't grasp the subtleties of trigger/cocking piece timing (something I know nothing about and so remain silent on) and a bunch of others piled on with their uninformed opinions.

In my own area of SME, the whole nitriding/DLC/coating thing is just a flood of ignorant/uninformed/technically incorrect statements all over this and other gun forums.

Imagine if professional riflesmiths started advertising the liner and geometric tolerances they hold on various features. This place would be awash with threads full of people with little to no understanding of those numbers and how they relate to rifle performance arguing endlessly about which is better. I bet most people here think that the concentricity of two cylindrical features defines the relationship between their surfaces. They are wrong. It only defines the relationship between their centerlines. There's a reason ASME Y14.5 (the bible of linear and geometric tolerancing) is over 200 pages long.


I wish I could love this comment.
Unless you KNOW numbers dont mean dick.

I have customers all the time, "what camshaft are you going to use? Why that one? I think we should use this spec"

Why??? You dont know. If you did you would be doing it yourself or you would be my boss. They're stupid numbers you read on the internet and feel the need to regurgitate them to me.
 
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I wish I could love this comment.
Unless you KNOW numbers dont mean dick.

I have customers all the time, "what camshaft are you going to use? Why that one? I think we should use this spec"

Why??? You dont know. If you did you would be doing it yourself or you would be my boss. They're stupid numbers you read on the internet and feel the need to regurgitate them to me.

3/4 cam?

:)
 
The very fact that most people on this forum use the word "tolerance" to refer to the fit of two mating parts tells me they absolutely don't know WTF they're talking about.

I can have two mating parts held to extremely tight diametral and position tolerances and they can fit like throwing a hot dog down main street BY DESIGN if that's what works best for the intended purpose of the assembly.
 
That's understandable, but too much technical info in the hands of those that don't really understand its significance creates a whole bunch of problems.

There's a train wreck of a thread elsewhere on this site casting doubt on ARC's Nucleus action because a DIY'er "building" his own rifle didn't grasp the subtleties of trigger/cocking piece timing (something I know nothing about and so remain silent on) and a bunch of others piled on with their uninformed opinions.

In my own area of SME, the whole nitriding/DLC/coating thing is just a flood of ignorant/uninformed/technically incorrect statements all over this and other gun forums.

Imagine if professional riflesmiths started advertising the liner and geometric tolerances they hold on various features. This place would be awash with threads full of people with little to no understanding of those numbers and how they relate to rifle performance arguing endlessly about which is better. I bet most people here think that the concentricity of two cylindrical features defines the relationship between their surfaces. They are wrong. It only defines the relationship between their centerlines. There's a reason ASME Y14.5 (the bible of geometric dimensioning and tolerancing) is over 200 pages long.

This happens in every industry. Nutrition? Automotive? Apparel? Manufacturers and marketers try to sell you on some attribute or benefit. Consumers are hungry for information. And much of it may be beyond their understanding. But they will still preference companies that are “transparent”. At least that is what I have noticed in my industry.

As a manufacturer, you can disdain them for not having read the 200 Page geometric dimensioning bible. Or you can aid their discovery of info.....

Well. I guess there are other options. Haha. But just saying. The trend of curious customers will only increase.
 
This happens in every industry. Nutrition? Automotive? Apparel? Manufacturers and marketers try to sell you on some attribute or benefit. Consumers are hungry for information. And much of it may be beyond their understanding. But they will still preference companies that are “transparent”. At least that is what I have noticed in my industry.

As a manufacturer, you can disdain them for not having read the 200 Page geometric dimensioning bible. Or you can aid their discovery of info.....

Well. I guess there are other options. Haha. But just saying. The trend of curious customers will only increase.
When it comes to rifles, I will refer you to Dave Tooley's comments.

Knowledge is all well and good, but it needs to be user-relevant. Knowing the concentricity of the chamber to the bore gives the user no actionable information. It's information that will become fodder for internet dick measuring about how much better my rifle is than yours.
 
I agree the target tells all. And for the record, I don’t have an interest in chamber concentricity.

Knowledge isn’t valuable based solely on its action ability. And trying to limit what knowledge someone should seek seems Odd.

That doesn’t mean there are no stupid questions- I’ll grant that. But if it’s an interest of his, good on him. I think the data just isn’t available is my guess.
 
Let me be blunt. Most "enthusiasts" use technical information they think they understand to either brag or be a pain in the ass to someone who knows more.

It's already been mentioned here by someone else
 
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I think the smiths are just afraid to show what shoddy work they allow to leave the shop. I know my smith holds it to .0001.

usher-eating-popcorn.jpg
 
It must be a burden to have all that knowledge and constantly annoyed by the pesky enthusiasts. I wonder if doctors feel the same way?

I am playing devils advocate I guess. But just bugs me when cranky people flame a guy for asking a fringe question.

Of course he kind of brought it on himself with the esoteric horseshit comment. Haha.
 
It must be a burden to have all that knowledge and constantly annoyed by the pesky enthusiasts. I wonder if doctors feel the same way?

I am playing devils advocate I guess. But just bugs me when cranky people flame a guy for asking a fringe question.

Of course he kind of brought it on himself with the esoteric horseshit comment. Haha.


I think that's because it would probably take several weeks of instruction to get from where most people are to the point that you could have a meaningful conversation about it.

So a lot of the attitude, warranted or not, comes from the fact that most people don't want to put forth any effort to learn that information or accept that they don't know.
 
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I think that's because it would probably take several weeks of instruction to get from where most people are to the point that you could have a meaningful conversation about it.

So a lot of the attitude, warranted or not, comes from the fact that most people don't want to put forth any effort to learn that information or accept that they don't know.


Yeah. I get that! I imagine some of the “experts” on here have answered the same questions thousands of times.

The guy I study Jiu Jitsu with probably has taught how to do the rear naked choke a million times. I can see it in his face sometimes. Hahaha. I know it gets old sometimes. But at least he gets to choke the bastards as part of the process!!
 
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A friend spent a weekend showing me how to chamber a barrel. I had no idea how ignorant I was about rifle chambers and running machine tools. We spent an hour indicating the barrel. The work turned out very nice and it shoots really well - way better than I can drive it.

Used to be, Tony Boyer bought a dozen or so barrels at the end of the season, chambered them all and then shot them to see which ones came out good. Those he kept and he sold the rest. At the level of the best benchrest shooter in the world, it isn't about the quality of the work. They were all chambered correctly.

My $0.02, if putting steel on target is the goal, precision is a question but there are a lot of other questions that matter as much - most of them having to do with the nut behind the wheel and the effort put into training, practice, fundamentals and wind reading. A really good shooter can make any gun look good and a really great gun won't protect an average shooter from himself.
 
Around 10 years ago I started building my own rifles. You can read all the info you want on how to do it but until you fire that lathe up and start making chips, thats how you learn. I built quite a few rifles and they all shot well. I had a 7 Mag that wouldnt go bang very often and I couldnt figure it out. I noticed that if the brass was fireformed it would go bang everytime. The fireformed brass shot extremely well. I finally figured out that "floating reamer holder" didnt float and the ass end of the chamber was way over sized. Barrel was cut down and fixed and it still shot well. I bought a borescope and have seen some really shit chambers and barrels but they still shot.

Like Chad said, the bullet will tell ya what you need to know.

Casey
 
There is no way that a chamber that threads onto the barrel has better concentricity or true position to the bore of the rifle than one that is drilled/bored/reamed in the same setup indicated true to the bore. Thread fit clearance alone will introduce an unwanted variation.

NFW
How much better than .0002 can it get?
 
I see quite a few of the big name Smith's claim .0001 concentricity. I know when my first machine was new I had a fee Chambers close to .0002 run-out and it started inching up and settled around .0005 as best I could measure. Fact of the matter is, the latter barrels would still win benchrest matches if I drove them well. As Chad said, tiny tolerances stack multiple times in the building process and I think to claim .0001 or anything close is absurd. I bet those early barrels that showed such little run-out we're flukes in either the measurement process or the chambering process itself. I had cut several Chambers with close to .001 run-out one time and...........they shot just fine! All of this said, I have a hard time believing your question was serious and would bet you most likely just want to stir shit up.
 
Anybody that thinks its ridiculous here, go take a stumble around the world of Hi-Fi. People would start fistfights over inflated performance specifications and marketing fluff, if only they could physically reach through their computer screens.

At least here, it doesn't take very long to tune in to who is knowledgeable and who is mostly full of shit. They usually get called pretty quick too.

It's already been said, but the proof is in the results, doesn't matter how you got there.
 
I wanna see the what the op can do. I’ve recently hand cut a chamber and am soon to see how accurate it is. I’ve been in machine shops literally across the street and subcontractor for nasa and I’m not sure they could meet the standards the op expects
 
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@Bluetroop

I’m in the same boat. I just snapped an inch of flute off of a brand new reamer. After some choice language was uttered and I settled down, I thought of this thread and decided to roll with it, just to see what happens. I’m willing to bet this shiny new $325 barrel this rifle is going to shoot just fine. Brass might be short lived in this gun.

Who knows.

We’ll find out later this week.