Coup De Grâce, New Action from American Rifle Company, $899 WOW!

[padfoot 37]

I actually read all of it... and it sounds like some fellow engineers that I know and a lot of lab rats and people in academics. Data and numbers is their entire life. Sometimes that translate to real world and other times it's only useful in a controlled lab.

But I'm just not sure why he thinks the price is outrageous?

Stock used R700 actions are going for $500-$600. Stock used Tikka actions are going for $600-$700.

This is a full custom with additional options going for not much more. I guess if you add in the trigger cost, then it's a significant difference, but if you're looking at this action, then you'd be looking at better triggers anyway. Price wise, the only other options are an Origin or Mack Bros, and this has features which aren't available in those.

Yup. Now to just get mine. Im drolling and have blue balls.

 

[HemiPowrd]

Sounds like someone applied Critical Theory to an action.

 

[msgriff]

Any TLDR?

 

[357Max]

You guys think he typed that? Totally a copy pasta from ChatGPT.

Well AI is in it’s infancy. If your theory is true, then AI just shit it’s diaper.

 

[30338]

Thoughts on a chance for the lighter weight hunter action in 2024? Optimistic perhaps?

 

[spife7980]

Forest accomplished too much for that comparison.
This is more accurate.

 

[Supersubes]

Not going to be pretty! That said even though I have not had my hands on one of your actions I like a lot of what I am reading about your design. Even if I won Powerball tomorrow I could not allow myself to spend $899 on your action on principal alone, I think you and everyone else that sells an overly expensive action does a terrible job making a compelling argument as to why your action is worth $899 out of of "because". Here is your chance! Cheer's!

So it is not accurate enough to deliver the killing blow with the first shot it needs an extra shot to finish off the wounded that rules out military sniper use? Might re-think that as a not so great marketing idea.

"It’s Rem700 footprint receiver is machined with an integral recoil lug and integral 20 MOA rail." So if you did not target the softest market since the small block chevy you could not sell your action?

"The three-lug, 70-degree bolt uses interchangeable floating bolt heads and accommodates everything from 223 Rem on up to 338 Lapua." So the floating bolt head that everyone has made fun of on the Savage 110 since the 1950's as a cost saving measure and a means to make up for precision machining is not hot and trendy? So why should I not purchase actions like Savage and Thompson Center that use a floating bolt head for far less money?

"The three-lug, 70-degree bolt uses interchangeable floating bolt heads and accommodates everything from 223 Rem on up to 338 Lapua." The three lug bolt has been done many times by many companies factory actions why did you wait this long to do this when you could have done it long ago!

"Receiver and bolt work well with AICS mags but are optimized for incredibly smooth and reliable feeding using AIAW mags and conical breech barrels." Many companies have done three lug bolts and conical bolts and breeches in both 2 lug and 3 lug and trapezoidal designs. Why did you wait this long to do this?

"Receiver-mounted passive (aka mechanical) ejector sends cases out at three o’clock through a large ejection port." Mauser did this as did Winchester and 1903 Springfield enerital ejector along with many other's. Why did you wait this long and why should anyone care?

"

Controlled-round feed extractor grips a large portion of the case rim taking full advantage of the patented pivoting bolt handle that easily pulls even the most stubborn cartridges from the chamber." Why should anyone in the precision shooting game care about this since this is often frowned upon by all but serious dangerous game hunters.? I can get the same from a cheap Mauser Action or Savage action I think the 11 and 111 are CRF?

"The pivoting bolt handle can be swapped out for a fixed handle thus converting the action to one with conventional cam extraction better tolerated by highly sensitive triggers." So why go with this design other than to cheapen manufacturing by having a bolt built up from cheap sub components like a Savage or Browning A-Bolt? Everything about this bolt design says "Cheap to manufacture" no matter if one goes with the pivoting bolt handle or non-pivoting handle!

"The entire bolt assembly is composed of only sixteen parts, but can function with as few as twelve, of which two are springs and one is a ball." Again your bolt handle screams cheap and weak design! A Mauser 98, CZ550, Howa 1500, Winchester Model 70 and 1903 Springfield and many other riles have far fewer components that make up the bolt and they are stronger forged one piece designs! Oh and they cost far less than your action costs! So why should I see your design as anything but a cheap to produce design?

"Dual cocking cams reduce friction within the bolt for easier bolt lift." I love this and most of what you have done but explain to people why this is fantastic! I can not even pretend not to like this! LOL

"The entire bolt, even the striker assembly, can be disassembled in the field without the use of tools" I can not pretend to have issues with this but Mauser, Winchester, Howa also do this for far less. Explain why this is huge not so much for competitor but for hunters in the field like say in Africa compared to say a Remington!

"Patented toroidal bolt-lug bearing surfaces reduce stress." This is nothing new other OEM mass produced and custom actions have done toroidal 2 and 3 lug bolts. Explain what this is for those on this site that are not 50 years old and students of history? Why is it a good thing? How does your design differ? What makes it a worth paying for???

What the hell makes you think $899 is a low price that is about as stupid of a statement as someone thinking the 60 count of egg's I bought 3 years ago at Walmart for $2.87 is a barging at $20 or no the lower price of $11.99 recently! How clueless are you as to think $899 is a barging? As much as I like 90% of this design on this point alone I think you are either retarded or suffering dementia!

So now that I have given you a fantastic opportunity for you to actually market the design elements you think everyone should think are great let me ask you some serious questions!

1) What are the levels of concentricity, squareness, tolerance stacking I should expect if I purchase your action?

2)What can I measure your product against so insure that I am getting every dime of my moneys worth?

3)How do I check that you are delivering to me the product I am paying for other than your word?

4)What do I get by purchasing your product that I can not get by sending off my Remington, Savage, Commercial Mauser, Rugger, Winchester Pre-64 M70 etc.... to Gre-Tan?

5) How do I guarantee that if I do not think I have gotten my moneys worth I get a full refund?

6) What barrel and gunsmith do I need to use to guarantee sub 1/4 or 1/8 MOA?

7) What is your guarantee and it had better not be something lame like a 1/4 MOA and definitely not 1/2 MOA? At $899 I had better get one heck of a guarantee!

So while I like the design elements mostly for your action I am looking for some fantastic answer's better than your less than average marketing! If I can not hold you do dimensions and machining standards and engineering standards that you have already lost and your are not worth my time or my money! If your answers are not founded in solid engineering and can not be measured empirically you are not doing well! I gave you some huge softball pitches for you to hit out of the park! This is not an attack!

Would you be willing to put your work up against a factory mass produced action that has been Machined by Greg at Gre-Tan? What about other's precision 'smiths? Maybe have a 3rd party measure the actions? Maybe let a 3rd party test the actions. Clearly it would not be me or you since I am not good enough and you and I both have bias! It would have to be someone that is not paid by either party and is a regional or national champion. I am at my best now at 50 years of age a 1/4 MOA shooter so I am not at all good enough. It would be fantastic if we could involve other's and have a BBQ, Bon Fire, shooting for fun and cheap prizes get together.

My premise is that for anything other than BR $899 to $2500 actions are a waste. That said I am not against them rather I am against the push that makes people think they need this level of gear to have fun and have any hope of doing well in non-BR competition.

My wife was a manchinest and prior to going to work in Engineering, Material Science, Business I was an apprentice in Automotive and Tool and Die. While I am not from Missouri I am definitely a " Show Me" type of guy!

I would love to be proven wrong on this. Why? Because then science, engineering and true learning would reign supreme!!! Maybe having a precision gunsmith handy and a variety of barrels handy would be a good idea. Shoot various actions and barrels with factory premium match grade ammo and also allow pet loads. Maybe have Silhouette, F-Class, PRS, NRA High Power Shooters handy to test all actions.

Lots of cigars, bourbon, beef, pig and chicken handy???? Maybe have different custom actions handy and OEM mass produced actions and the same blue printed handy?

Maybe being able to test rigidity, lock time, harmonics, bolt bounce. I do have a 200Mhz digital oscilloscope so we could with the right sensors measure a lot of variables!

I understand why no manufacture would want to do this though since everyone has nothing to gain and everything to lose!

I sincerely look forward to any answer's you give. I repeat this is not an attack on your product but I do understand why it could be seen as that. I truly like a lot of the design elements you have worked into your design. No one will alloy themselves to be pinned down or backed into a corner with anything like empirical evidence and hard standards. I understand if you chose to ignore me!

Some of the dumbest shit ive read on the hide, ever. Im sorry for the people who read that to the end.

 

[fmorelli]

Would you be willing to put your work up against a factory mass produced action that has been Machined by Greg at Gre-Tan?

 

[fmorelli]

Some of the dumbest shit ive read on the hide, ever. Im sorry for the people who read that to the end.

Oh c'mon ... you had to read that with popcorn. The frenetic "I love your work, Jane You Ignorant Slut, this is not meant to be insulting, But You Are Retarded" was special, especially with all the autistic 4chan touches.

 

[Rex_Allen]

Is there an award for most autistic post and he’s competing with himself?

 

[Supersubes]

Oh c'mon ... you had to read that with popcorn. The frenetic "I love your work, Jane You Ignorant Slut, this is not meant to be insulting, But You Are Retarded" was special, especially with all the autistic 4chan touches.

The “pivoting bolt is just cheap manufacturing” line was enough for me. Just too stupid to be funny, or even interesting.

 

[Baron23]

Not going to be pretty! That said even though I have not had my hands on one of your actions I like a lot of what I am reading about your design. Even if I won Powerball tomorrow I could not allow myself to spend $899 on your action on principal alone, I think you and everyone else that sells an overly expensive action does a terrible job making a compelling argument as to why your action is worth $899 out of of "because". Here is your chance! Cheer's!

So it is not accurate enough to deliver the killing blow with the first shot it needs an extra shot to finish off the wounded that rules out military sniper use? Might re-think that as a not so great marketing idea.

"It’s Rem700 footprint receiver is machined with an integral recoil lug and integral 20 MOA rail." So if you did not target the softest market since the small block chevy you could not sell your action?

"The three-lug, 70-degree bolt uses interchangeable floating bolt heads and accommodates everything from 223 Rem on up to 338 Lapua." So the floating bolt head that everyone has made fun of on the Savage 110 since the 1950's as a cost saving measure and a means to make up for precision machining is not hot and trendy? So why should I not purchase actions like Savage and Thompson Center that use a floating bolt head for far less money?

"The three-lug, 70-degree bolt uses interchangeable floating bolt heads and accommodates everything from 223 Rem on up to 338 Lapua." The three lug bolt has been done many times by many companies factory actions why did you wait this long to do this when you could have done it long ago!

"Receiver and bolt work well with AICS mags but are optimized for incredibly smooth and reliable feeding using AIAW mags and conical breech barrels." Many companies have done three lug bolts and conical bolts and breeches in both 2 lug and 3 lug and trapezoidal designs. Why did you wait this long to do this?

"Receiver-mounted passive (aka mechanical) ejector sends cases out at three o’clock through a large ejection port." Mauser did this as did Winchester and 1903 Springfield enerital ejector along with many other's. Why did you wait this long and why should anyone care?

"

Controlled-round feed extractor grips a large portion of the case rim taking full advantage of the patented pivoting bolt handle that easily pulls even the most stubborn cartridges from the chamber." Why should anyone in the precision shooting game care about this since this is often frowned upon by all but serious dangerous game hunters.? I can get the same from a cheap Mauser Action or Savage action I think the 11 and 111 are CRF?

"The pivoting bolt handle can be swapped out for a fixed handle thus converting the action to one with conventional cam extraction better tolerated by highly sensitive triggers." So why go with this design other than to cheapen manufacturing by having a bolt built up from cheap sub components like a Savage or Browning A-Bolt? Everything about this bolt design says "Cheap to manufacture" no matter if one goes with the pivoting bolt handle or non-pivoting handle!

"The entire bolt assembly is composed of only sixteen parts, but can function with as few as twelve, of which two are springs and one is a ball." Again your bolt handle screams cheap and weak design! A Mauser 98, CZ550, Howa 1500, Winchester Model 70 and 1903 Springfield and many other riles have far fewer components that make up the bolt and they are stronger forged one piece designs! Oh and they cost far less than your action costs! So why should I see your design as anything but a cheap to produce design?

"Dual cocking cams reduce friction within the bolt for easier bolt lift." I love this and most of what you have done but explain to people why this is fantastic! I can not even pretend not to like this! LOL

"The entire bolt, even the striker assembly, can be disassembled in the field without the use of tools" I can not pretend to have issues with this but Mauser, Winchester, Howa also do this for far less. Explain why this is huge not so much for competitor but for hunters in the field like say in Africa compared to say a Remington!

"Patented toroidal bolt-lug bearing surfaces reduce stress." This is nothing new other OEM mass produced and custom actions have done toroidal 2 and 3 lug bolts. Explain what this is for those on this site that are not 50 years old and students of history? Why is it a good thing? How does your design differ? What makes it a worth paying for???

What the hell makes you think $899 is a low price that is about as stupid of a statement as someone thinking the 60 count of egg's I bought 3 years ago at Walmart for $2.87 is a barging at $20 or no the lower price of $11.99 recently! How clueless are you as to think $899 is a barging? As much as I like 90% of this design on this point alone I think you are either retarded or suffering dementia!

So now that I have given you a fantastic opportunity for you to actually market the design elements you think everyone should think are great let me ask you some serious questions!

1) What are the levels of concentricity, squareness, tolerance stacking I should expect if I purchase your action?

2)What can I measure your product against so insure that I am getting every dime of my moneys worth?

3)How do I check that you are delivering to me the product I am paying for other than your word?

4)What do I get by purchasing your product that I can not get by sending off my Remington, Savage, Commercial Mauser, Rugger, Winchester Pre-64 M70 etc.... to Gre-Tan?

5) How do I guarantee that if I do not think I have gotten my moneys worth I get a full refund?

6) What barrel and gunsmith do I need to use to guarantee sub 1/4 or 1/8 MOA?

7) What is your guarantee and it had better not be something lame like a 1/4 MOA and definitely not 1/2 MOA? At $899 I had better get one heck of a guarantee!

So while I like the design elements mostly for your action I am looking for some fantastic answer's better than your less than average marketing! If I can not hold you do dimensions and machining standards and engineering standards that you have already lost and your are not worth my time or my money! If your answers are not founded in solid engineering and can not be measured empirically you are not doing well! I gave you some huge softball pitches for you to hit out of the park! This is not an attack!

Would you be willing to put your work up against a factory mass produced action that has been Machined by Greg at Gre-Tan? What about other's precision 'smiths? Maybe have a 3rd party measure the actions? Maybe let a 3rd party test the actions. Clearly it would not be me or you since I am not good enough and you and I both have bias! It would have to be someone that is not paid by either party and is a regional or national champion. I am at my best now at 50 years of age a 1/4 MOA shooter so I am not at all good enough. It would be fantastic if we could involve other's and have a BBQ, Bon Fire, shooting for fun and cheap prizes get together.

My premise is that for anything other than BR $899 to $2500 actions are a waste. That said I am not against them rather I am against the push that makes people think they need this level of gear to have fun and have any hope of doing well in non-BR competition.

My wife was a manchinest and prior to going to work in Engineering, Material Science, Business I was an apprentice in Automotive and Tool and Die. While I am not from Missouri I am definitely a " Show Me" type of guy!

I would love to be proven wrong on this. Why? Because then science, engineering and true learning would reign supreme!!! Maybe having a precision gunsmith handy and a variety of barrels handy would be a good idea. Shoot various actions and barrels with factory premium match grade ammo and also allow pet loads. Maybe have Silhouette, F-Class, PRS, NRA High Power Shooters handy to test all actions.

Lots of cigars, bourbon, beef, pig and chicken handy???? Maybe have different custom actions handy and OEM mass produced actions and the same blue printed handy?

Maybe being able to test rigidity, lock time, harmonics, bolt bounce. I do have a 200Mhz digital oscilloscope so we could with the right sensors measure a lot of variables!

I understand why no manufacture would want to do this though since everyone has nothing to gain and everything to lose!

I sincerely look forward to any answer's you give. I repeat this is not an attack on your product but I do understand why it could be seen as that. I truly like a lot of the design elements you have worked into your design. No one will alloy themselves to be pinned down or backed into a corner with anything like empirical evidence and hard standards. I understand if you chose to ignore me!

You are truly a pox on this board.

And you are demanding answers from Ted? If I were he, I wouldn’t sell you a single screw if you were the last customer on earth.

I actually think there may be some psychotropic meds that can help you.

 

[LeftyJason]

Considering adding a certain poster to a certain thread that I started. Not quite sure how to do it yet. Anybody have thought on how to do it?

Edit: poster is now gone.

 

[357Max]

Considering adding a certain poster to a certain thread that I started. Not quite sure how to do it yet. Anybody have thought on how to do it?

Waite til the inevitable flame out.

 

[CobraCharmer]

It all tracks with the stereotypical boomer/early Gen X mentality

That is a rather wide window. At 43, I don't fall in there. My wife? sure. Me? FUCK NO.
Edit: Can you shoot F-Class and still be a poor? I don't shoot any class and have come to the realization that long range shooting isint a poor man's game.

 

[Awag1000]

That is a rather wide window. At 43, I don't fall in there. My wife? sure. Me? FUCK NO.
Edit: Can you shoot F-Class and still be a poor? I don't shoot any class and have come to the realization that long range shooting isint a poor man's game.

Its just a stereotype. Doesn't apply to everyone.

 

[bohem]

I thought we didn’t allow open sodomites outside of the bear pit ?

Nah, we just "elect" them to public office now.

OK back to my cave to make more chips...

 

[FredHammer]

Nah, we just "elect" them to public office now.

OK back to my cave to make more chips...

Roll pins, Brah!

 

[Awag1000]

I normally don't at people but @bohem Can you post some pictures of some more of the wonderful barrel fluting you make. I need more hype for my barrel. Thanks -Austin

 

[FredHammer]

I normally don't at people but @bohem Can you post some pictures of some more of the wonderful barrel fluting you make. I need more hype for my barrel. Thanks -Austin

Yes, I would like to see some too!

 

[NWnewguy]

If fclassparasite thinks the CDG doesn’t meet his value criteria; I can’t wait until he reads about the new Definace ownership. That post will be epic.

 

[Supersubes]

Back on track

 

[Awag1000]

Got my shipping notification for the PVA barrel today! CDG is currently being shipped to my FFL. I'm so PUMPED UP! LETS GOOOOOO!!!

 

[browning442]

I hated my Coup so much after 1 time out to the range, I ordered another yesterday. Luckily I don’t mind getting absolutely raked over the coals on action pricing. Especially with an action that really doesn’t do anything new or innovative compared to other R700, 90 degree, two lug actions. Guess I’m just too easy to please!

Either that, or the Coup is fucking baller, so I ordered another.

Edit: jokes aside, crazy nice action for the money. Can’t be beat at the preorder price, and even if it goes up to $1,100, it’s still one of the best in the game.

 

[Rex_Allen]

Back on trackView attachment 8140108

I hated my Coup so much after 1 time out to the range, I ordered another yesterday. Luckily I don’t mind getting absolutely raked over the coals on action pricing. Especially with an action that really doesn’t do anything new or innovative compared to other R700, 90 degree, two lug actions. Guess I’m just too easy to please!

Either that, or the Coup is fucking baller, so I ordered another.

Range reports!

 

[browning442]

Range reports!

Soon soon. I was just doing some break in for now. I did shoot some low charge loads with 140 ELDM, 40.0 grains of H4350. Fed like butter from AW mag out of the Xylo. Put 5 of 6 into a maybe 3-4” group at 800 on steel. The other one went about 3” lower. Again that was an arbitrary load with no tuning, it’s gonna hammer.

Triggertech Diamond single stage was easy to time, just make sure you slam the bolt shut, as you can make the firing pin drop at a certain point. I made sure mine was safe with the least cock on close possible, and it’s been running flawlessly.

 

[Supersubes]

Range reports!

I already did one.


From today dont know wtf is up with the sound.

 

[Rex_Allen]

So for fun and cause I’m too excited about the CdG. I decided to put a flat face barrel from my sa mausingfield on it. 308 win. Feeds flawlessly.

 

[Supersubes]

So for fun and cause I’m too excited about the CdG. I decided to put a flat face barrel from my sa mausingfield on it. 308 win. Feeds flawlessly.

View attachment 8140146

I dont doubt this at all. My 6cm just barely touches the edge of the chamber (i coned the breech). The larger diameter bullet of the 308 is lifting the meplat enough to clear.

Does it headspace?

 

[Rex_Allen]

I dont doubt this at all. My 6cm just barely touches the edge of the chamber (i coned the breech). The larger diameter bullet of the 308 is lifting the meplat enough to clear.

Does it headspace?

I don’t have gauges. But I don’t see why it wouldn’t. It’s a barrel nut barrel.

 

[mauserfan]

So for fun and cause I’m too excited about the CdG. I decided to put a flat face barrel from my sa mausingfield on it. 308 win. Feeds flawlessly.

View attachment 8140146

Which mag were you using?

 

[Rex_Allen]

Which mag were you using?

AW

 

[Awag1000]

So for fun and cause I’m too excited about the CdG. I decided to put a flat face barrel from my sa mausingfield on it. 308 win. Feeds flawlessly.

View attachment 8140146

post it in the CDG Build thread. that looks awesome!

 

[Tokay444]

I already did one.


From today dont know wtf is up with the sound.

Must be a microwaved potato.

 

[Supersubes]

Must be a microwaved potato.

Youtube “short” turns it into a potato.

 

[FredHammer]

So for fun and cause I’m too excited about the CdG. I decided to put a flat face barrel from my sa mausingfield on it. 308 win. Feeds flawlessly.

View attachment 8140146

So, this is a bit of extremely interesting discovery. I'd love to bust a nut on the CDG action!

 

[TheOE800]

I'd love to bust a nut on the CDG action!

I mean if you’re into that…

 

[evilsemaj]

So for fun and cause I’m too excited about the CdG. I decided to put a flat face barrel from my sa mausingfield on it. 308 win. Feeds flawlessly.

View attachment 8140146

Haha, darn, I wanted to be the first! I've got a flat face .308 savage takeoff barrel on mine but haven't gotten it into a chassis yet to see if it will feed.

 

[TACC]

Long Actions roll out sometime in June from what ARC was telling me.

Can't wait, thats what I'm waiting on

 

[LeftyJason]

If fclassparasite thinks the CDG doesn’t meet his value criteria; I can’t wait until he reads about the new Definace ownership. That post will be epic.

@fclassparadise is gone. No posts. No history. Nothing. Poof.

 

[TheOE800]

@fclassparadise is gone. No posts. No history. Nothing. Poof.

There is a God.

 

[Im2bent]

Yep looks like the kitty got him

 

[Boatninja]

@fclassparadise is gone. No posts. No history. Nothing. Poof.

Dang, just when it was starting to get entertaining....

 

[missed]

Hmm I think I'm going to have to get one of the lefty long action 588 BF for a 300NM and another one in right hand short for a 223 or 6x47 build for the kiddo.

 

[Awag1000]

So I have a bit of a thought bouncing around in my head now. I know that it has been discussed here a little bit but I didn't get a complete answer. I may buy a long action in the future and have it chambered in 338LM. However I'm a little concerned that with a savage small shank the material around the chamber may be too thin. Is this cause for concern or am I just over thinking this?

 

[GBMaryland]

So, anyone put one of these actions into an MDT chasis of any kind? Did it fit? Require fitting?

 

[FredHammer]

So I have a bit of a thought bouncing around in my head now. I know that it has been discussed here a little bit but I didn't get a complete answer. I may buy a long action in the future and have it chambered in 338LM. However I'm a little concerned that with a savage small shank the material around the chamber may be too thin. Is this cause for concern or am I just over thinking this?

I think you have a valid concern. Savage even makes large shank. I would research the dimensions of popular 338LM rigs.

 

[Awag1000]

I think you have a valid concern. Savage even makes large shank. I would research the dimensions of popular 338LM rigs.

I know 300wm is fine, I've been absolutely abusing my Savage 110 with some hot hanloads for the past 3 years.

 

[7mmShooter]

So I have a bit of a thought bouncing around in my head now. I know that it has been discussed here a little bit but I didn't get a complete answer. I may buy a long action in the future and have it chambered in 338LM. However I'm a little concerned that with a savage small shank the material around the chamber may be too thin. Is this cause for concern or am I just over thinking this?

I emailed ARC and asked the same thing, they said it should be fine but they hadn’t specifically tested it yet, and I was inquiring about running a 37XC which would be even more stress than the normal Lapua.

Remington made a factory Lapua on the same tenon as this CDG, and I’ve even seen the 33/37XC done on them as well. As long as you keep the pressures sane and use a good sized barrel shank you should be fine is the consensus I’ve gotten from those I’ve talked to

 

[RushT]

Sort of on-topic: For anyone buying accessories for a new build around a CDG, Optics Planet has the Warne Skyline in Arca @ $295. Free shipping too. Most everywhere else is still $350+.