Coyote AR

[mensajd]

How are you liking that 20 practical? I have a 20 practical barrel that I’ve yet to put on a lower as I am using my 17 rem now. What necking dies do you have?

The 20p is a great cartridge. Near 204r ballistics but better feed and function in an ar (204r doesn’t work well with pmags, for example).

Using redding 223 type s full length bushing die with redding competition shell holders to control amount of shoulder bump (.003 - .005 for an ar). And two appropriate 20p bushings. I size down the 223 brass in two steps instead of all at once.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I have killed coyotes in everything from .243 ai in a bolt gun to a .223 in a 16" ar to a .204 in a bolt gun. I had good luck with very few runners in a 22/250 bolt gun running 53-55 gr with plastic tipped varmint bullets to 350 yds. The best has been the 243 ai with 105 AMAX. If they are hit in the body they go down. Very rare to have one spin or run. None have made it out of sight. That said, most of my shots are inside of 200 yds. A well placed shot from a .223 almost always gets it done. The problems come when you push the distance on those very few that hang up past 200 yds. In my experience, the best way to put them down without running is a very fast moving, big, 6mm, frangible bullet. In an ar15 platform at distance I would be looking at the 243 wssm or the 223 wssm. If you can be patient, a .223 with 50 or 53 gr vmax will get the job done.

 

[kingzero]

I live in AZ and can shoot almost as far as I want on coyotes and have settled on 3 different platforms. One is a Tikka 22-250, which doesn't apply to your question but is an absolute hammer on dogs. The others are a 10.5" 5.56 SBR and a 16" 6.5 Grendel.....both suppressed of course. If you're not interested in saving the pelts, then I would suggest something bigger than 5.56/ 223. For off the shelf ammo I would stick with something like 6.5 Grendel or 224 Valkyrie. All in I would go for a Proof barreled 22 Creedmoor.

 

[AZgeek]

I know 49F is not even close to freezing, but it sure felt that way today in AZ with 18mph winds and a cold front! Crying over, except for my poor marksmanship. Tested some Nosler 90gr Varmageddon & 129 ABLR in my Grendel. The 90gr were within the sticky target. Not what I was hoping for. Current load averages 2831 fps. Too slow for an effective Coyote load out to a max of 500yds?

 

[Dayandnight]

Are we talking calling guns or coyote shooting guns? There’s a difference. Everyone has a different perspective of what what is. Throw away bc and go with speed, lightweight, and low zoom on calling rifle. Reverse for road hunting or spot and snipe. I don’t want to dope shit under +-300 yards. If it’s windy(10-15mph+)I’m not going calling anyway for countless reasons. Gotta see the big picture and wasted moves

 

[AZgeek]

That's a question for the OP. In my case, I want as fast a light weight bullet as I can push out of a 20" Grendel. Already upped this load by .3 grains and will test in a few days. Don't think I can safely reach 2900 fps with this powder (IMR 8208 XBR) so maybe a max 300 yards point and shoot is where it will end up. In addition, maybe a 200 instead of 100 yard zero.

 

[mensajd]

Are we talking calling guns or coyote shooting guns? There’s a difference. Everyone has a different perspective of what what is. Throw away bc and go with speed, lightweight, and low zoom on calling rifle. Reverse for road hunting or spot and snipe. I don’t want to dope shit under +-300 yards. If it’s windy(10-15mph+)I’m not going calling anyway for countless reasons. Gotta see the big picture and wasted moves

Some cartridges can do both. 243 wssm with 55gr nosler at 4100+ will shoot point blank to 350 yds. With a 20 moa cantilevered base/mount and 95gr sierra tmk, you can reach out and touch something out to 1000 yds. I am using the latter with a 36x target scope and use a 20p for near stuff.

 

[treillw]

Dtech 243 wssm upper with a shilen select match barrel. Will shoot sierra 95gr MK and TMK bullets out to 1000 yds despite having been loaded to mag length. You can shoot heavier bullets but probably will have to single load.

Do you think the 103 eldx will mag feed?

Is the 55 gn bullet your shooting the varmagedon, or what are you using? Is the varmagedon a good bullet?

I'm just curious to know what bullet range will be capable of mag feeding.

I assume you reload for the WSSM? Was it tough to find an accurate load? What kind of accuracy are you seeing with lightweight and heavyweight bullets?

What is the weight penalty in going to an AR10 with a 22 Creedmoor do you think?

Thanks for answering my questions! You have been very helpful!

 

[Dayandnight]

Define what your max point blank range is. Is it plus and minus 2.5”? How does stretching it that much help for the all important 150 yard shots you when you are 2.5” high at that point. Isn’t the idea of mpbr just to pull up and shoot? Not exactly pull up and shoot to me. Now you have to remember to aim lower and hopefully you know the distance as things are happening quickly. i can think of probably 10 reasons most people including myself tend to shoot high. I don’t know very many reasons for low impacts. I use a zero that doesn’t cause more than 1” rise at any point in trajectory.

 

[mensajd]

Define what your max point blank range is. Is it plus and minus 2.5”? How does stretching it that much help for the all important 150 yard shots you when you are 2.5” high at that point. Isn’t the idea of mpbr just to pull up and shoot? Not exactly pull up and shoot to me. Now you have to remember to aim lower and hopefully you know the distance as things are happening quickly. i can think of probably 10 reasons most people including myself tend to shoot high. I don’t know very many reasons for low impacts. I use a zero that doesn’t cause more than 1” rise at any point in trajectory.

+2.2” at 200 and -2.6” at 350 yds. If you don’t consider that within minute of yote then you can always zero closer and problem solved. Regardless, it can shoot very flat at short ranges.

 

[treillw]

Any thoughts on the ultralight rifles from V seven?

Looking at things quickly, they have an AR10 coming in at around 6 pounds and an AR15 around 4.5 pounds.

I'd be happy putting a heavier accurate barrel on that AR10......

 

[blackblue]

I did a little more research and heard that the 243 WSSM can have feeding problems because the case is so fat. Also heard that the bolt is too large in diameter for an AR15.

Is the 243 wssm a proprietary cartridge that is only allowed to be manufactured by certain people?

Email or call mike a dtech, the guy is beyond helpful and great to deal with and builds one hell of a rifle. End all be all person to talk to for WSSM stuff IMO, he's been doing them for a lot of years, 243 HP on the smaller lighter platform.

Added note the 103 eld out of the wssm would be stuffing alot of bullet in the case, if you go wssm route stick to light-medium weight bullets with speed.

 

[treillw]

Dtech 243 wssm upper with a shilen select match barrel. Will shoot sierra 95gr MK and TMK bullets out to 1000 yds

The SMK and TMK seem to have a pretty high BC for the class of bullet that will fit into the AR mag. Would you know of any that are better that can mag feed?

 

[Tex_ponch]

after reading all this I am now thinking about getting a 243 WSSM upper to use again.....currently running a 6mm creed, 22nosler, 224 val, 22-250, and 556.....I like options.

 

[treillw]

What is the barrel life like on the 243 wssm? There seems to be some misinformation out there on the internet about it if you search around - different sides of the story. Somebody has to be wrong.

 

[SWgeezer]

Anybody besides Dtech make 243 WSSM uppers? Haven't been able to get calls through to builders with the holiday.

I did a little comparing and the 243 WSSM seems to be a pretty high horsepower cartridge in the AR platform. Is there any round out there that is hotter?

There used to be another company that actually started the wssm, I don't recall what it is though. Be patient and call Dtech on the days he has listed as office days, he runs a one man shop and doesn't answer the phone any other day. His accuracy record is very good.

 

[SWgeezer]

Mike usually keeps brass and magazines for the wssm, there is a waiting time as he stays busy, Olympic arms is the one I couldn't think of at first, you don't hear the success stories from them that you hear from DTech. I have had one for quite some time, it was used when I bought it. I don't have a reliable number count on rounds fired. Mike told me that he expects 2500 is a fair estimate. They do build up carbon and have to be cleaned good after about 50 rounds. He will also instruct you on proper reloading techniques for the extremely heavy brass. They can be a pain if you don't really resize them fully.

Get a case minimum gauge and use it after resizing.

Also get the barrel twist for the anticipated bullet weight, mine is a slower twist that shoots the 55-70gr bullets as good as any other rifle. It will amaze you at how good it will shoot, also either buy the lower from him or send him yours to make sure the magazines line up for feeding. Some lowers are sloppy enough that you can have some issues there. The magazine needs to fit tight near the bolt.

If you want a deal on a used one with brass and dies, send me a message. I need to thin my ar mania down somewhat.

 

[MakeSawdust]

What is the barrel life like on the 243 wssm? There seems to be some misinformation out there on the internet about it if you search around - different sides of the story. Somebody has to be wrong.

If only used as a hunting rifle you might get the 2500 rds as stated from the slow rate of fire. If you plan to practice with the gun much or you want best long range accuracy it will probably be much shorter. I shoot a 243ai with 105-115 gr bullets at pedestrian speeds with H1000 for PRS type shooting Criterion button rifled barrels have been lasting between 2400 and 2800 rounds. A cut rifled barrel might get better life, but with hotter powders the barrel life is going to be shortened significantly. The capacity, shoulder angle, and neck length are similar to 6 creedmoor and I would expect similar barrel life. 2500 rounds seems possible, but is probably on the high side of what you will get. If you run hotter powders you will likely have issues much sooner. It's hard to say for sure as there are so many variables that affect barrel life.

In a calling gun, even at 100 dogs per year, that barrel is going to last many years. If you plan to shoot PDs or matches with it you might as well keep a fresh barrel ready to screw on, but I do think a 243 wssm would make an ideal open country calling gun in an ar15 platform.

 

[SWgeezer]

If only used as a hunting rifle you might get the 2500 rds as stated from the slow rate of fire. If you plan to practice with the gun much or you want best long range accuracy it will probably be much shorter. I shoot a 243ai with 105-115 gr bullets at pedestrian speeds with H1000 for PRS type shooting Criterion button rifled barrels have been lasting between 2400 and 2800 rounds. A cut rifled barrel might get better life, but with hotter powders the barrel life is going to be shortened significantly. The capacity, shoulder angle, and neck length are similar to 6 creedmoor and I would expect similar barrel life. 2500 rounds seems possible, but is probably on the high side of what you will get. If you run hotter powders you will likely have issues much sooner. It's hard to say for sure as there are so many variables that affect barrel life.

In a calling gun, even at 100 dogs per year, that barrel is going to last many years. If you plan to shoot PDs or matches with it you might as well keep a fresh barrel ready to screw on, but I do think a 243 wssm would make an ideal open country calling gun in an ar15 platform.

Fully agree, if you are going to empty the magazine and get it hot, you can lower that number considerably, your mileage may vary with use.

 

[mensajd]

The SMK and TMK seem to have a pretty high BC for the class of bullet that will fit into the AR mag. Would you know of any that are better that can mag feed?

These will fit into the 4-rnd stainless mags which will let you load to just under 2.30” coal. I’m getting 3067fps (measured with a labradar) using varget. ~1400fps retained velocity at 1000yds. These require at least a 1:9” twist. I chose a 1:8” twist so I could optionally shoot berger 105gr hybrids (single loaded). Note that these are all target bullets.

Varmint shooters seem to like the 87gr v-max bullets which can be safely loaded to 3100+ fps and which only require a 1:10” twist. So you might consider a 1:9” twist to keep the option to shoot the 95gr sierras.

 

[SWgeezer]

These will fit into the 4-rnd stainless mags which will let you load to just under 2.30” coal. I’m getting 3067fps (measured with a labradar) using varget. ~1400fps retained velocity at 1000yds. These require at least a 1:9” twist. I chose a 1:8” twist so I could optionally shoot berger 105gr hybrids (single loaded). Note that these are all target bullets.

Varmint shooters seem to like the 87gr v-max bullets which can be safely loaded to 3100+ fps and which only require a 1:10” twist. So you might consider a 1:9” twist to keep the option to shoot the 95gr sierras.

I like your thinking, Mike at DTech is still my builder of choice on it, I have 2 of his uppers, the 243 WSSM and a 6DTI, both are shooters.

 

[MuleyTime]

Just found this thread with good timing. I ordered a DTech 6DTI and received a voice mail yesterday stating it is completed and ready for shipping. I'm excited as this seems to be an awesome recipe for a coyote AR (+- 70 grain bullets). Would love to hear from others shooting the 6DTI.

 

[b2lee]

This season I've killed coyotes in KY and GA using different guns:

Remington 870 12ga at ~20yds
Winchester Model 1894 30-30 at ~40yds
AR-15 in 5.56 at 50-200yds
AR-15 in 300BO at 50-100yds
Norinco SKS at ~50yds
Remington 700 in 308 at 50-500yds

I prefer the 700 in 308....too much bullet? They are cheap and the coyotes have yet to complain.

I do prefer to bring them in close to the Lucky Duck Revolt....just don't shoot my caller! That's what happened to the FoxPro last year....stupid friend.

 

[Clownbuster]

22 Creedmoor. Does everything exceptionally well from little critters to mule deer.

 

[Sendit6.5]

What caliber would you go with for a Coyote AR to use out west? Wide open - can shoot as far as you can see. Windy. Probably want to stick to the AR15 platform and avoid the heavy AR10. Would also like to be able to slap a 5.56 upper on it for defense.

6.5 Grendel has been on my radar for some years. 224 valk and 22 creedmoor are interesting as well.

Can a quality built AR have accuracy on par with a bolt gun?

What are some manufacturers you would suggest? Don't want to spend $3k, but would consider some more boutique manufacturers.

If I'm investing a good bit of money into the rifle, it might be nice to take it on a deer or antelope hunt, but I have plenty of guns that can fill that role as well if the caliber is not ideal.

Thanks!

Am I wrong in guessing that you're getting into, or wanting to get into, coyote hunting in the vast wide open spaces? I'm asking because it seems like some things haver been overlooked in this discussion - like the feasibility of making really long shoots on coyotes, or any predator. I'm not doubting anyone's shooting ability but, as someone that hunts predators as part of my job, I can tell you that coyotes don't like to stand around waiting to be ranged and calculated and dialed for. Usually, in the time it takes you to range a coyote and get onto your rifle he's already 50-75 yards closer to you; assuming you're calling him. I'm not saying you can't kill some coyotes at pretty extended ranges (I absolutely know you can and have done it myself) but those opportunities are few and far between. Usually, your shots are going to be inside 250yds, in my experience. Particularly if you've called in multiple dogs because you'll want them to come in as close as possible, to give yourself as much time to chase the 2nd and 3rd coyote. Also, if you start shooting at distance and you miss or have to chase another dog, they're increasing that distance (making the followup shots even more difficult) at a high rate of speed. My point is... Designing a "coyote AR" with the specific purpose of shooting them at distance is sort of backwards. It makes more sense to build around the bulk of your shots and then figure out how adapt that setup for those occasional longer shots. Besides, if you feel like calling a coyote with the specific intention of shooting him 'way out there,' just so you can you've done it, you'd be better off with a bolt gun; so just grab whatever (caliber) bolt gun you have that's already set up for LR shooting. If you're into calling predators, build a semi-auto that's terrific to 300yds (then it'll at least be 'good' to 500) and kill a LOT of coyotes. Personally, it's the "calling" that I like the best - getting them to come to me; and the closer I get them, the more fun it is! There's nothing like having a coyote come to a skidding stop 8-10yds in front of you, with a look of pure shock on their faces! Lol!

Personally, I like the .223 just because its CHEAP and available in SO many different configurations. I have very few "runners" with .223; although I do have more than with my Win SX3 shotgun and some "Dead Coyote" loads! I use a 69gr or a 77gr most of the time but, honestly, I've had essentially the same success with 55gr v-max. I get.223 ammo when I find a deal and I'm not overly picky. I use a lot of guns, though - predators are a way for me to play with (and justify to the wife) the guns I've collected over there years. I use a .204 quite a bit and I really like my CZ 527 for both coyotes and bobcats. Another day I may be using my mother's first rifle that's a Sako-Anschutz .222 or my custom 6.5 Creedmoor. More often than not, though, I'm caring a suppressed SBR that I built with a Noveske barrel along with my 12ga. There hasn't been a caliber mentioned in this thread that I wouldn't use; but I just don't see the practical advantage to building a predator gun on a more expensive caliber. .223 is cheap enough to allow most folks to buy a lot of it, which means you can shoot a lot - a bigger factor in your success rate than one calibers 4.86184% improvement over an affordable and widely available caliber. Now, if you are looking to justify building a new rifle in a particular caliber just to 'do something different' (and you need an excuse for the wife), that's a different story. <---I totally 'get' that. Just not sure what your personal objectives are

WSSM calibers. I have a Win 25wssm bolt rifle I bought when the caliber first came out and I love both the rifle and the caliber -it's a terrific deer cartridge and is devastating on coyotes. Winchester did the shooting world a real disservice by failing to properly promote and then dropping support of the cartridge series THEY introduced before it was able to garner the attention is deserved. BUT.... finding any wssm caliber ammo is usually a tough prospect and so is locating brass. If I didn't own this rifle already, there's NO way I buy anything wssm today. I'd love to turn it into something else but the overly short action that Winchester used isn't well suited for many calibers and nothing I'm interested. The WSSM is just too much hassle for too little return, IMO. It's almost a wildcat these days so, if you're going to hand load anyway, why not build a true wildcat with blazing speed and accuracy and true novelty, without any possible feeding issues? Do you reload? If you don't, or are thinking about getting into it, I don't think I'd build anything you HAVE to reload.

Generally speaking, a bolt gun tends to be more accurate than an AR; but that doesn't mean you can't get terrific accuracy out of a semi auto. Plenty of accuracy for the task you laid out and any normal predator hunting.

Your budget... If you're willing to spend $2k-ish on a rifle, what's your optic budget? Honestly, optics are WAY more important to me than the particular caliber. I usually spend far more on optics than on my rifles. If I built a $2k semi-auto I'd be spending around the same on my glass plus an offset micro red dot for close in fast-movers, when I don't have a shotgun. However, that's a crazy amount to spend on a "coyote gun." Hunting predator is a significant portion of my income and there's just NO way I would blow that kind of money on a rifle just for predators. Not when I kill as many as I do with cheaper setups or pretty much whatever I felt like pulling out of the safe . Again, if coyotes are just the excuse to build a fancy, best-of-the-best rifle, then that's a different story. I totally understand that justification and have used similar ones myself. I just didn't want you to think you HAD to build a $2k AR just to 'get it done' at some pretty good distance. You can put together a darn nice AR yourself, capable of shooting Sub MOA groups out to 500-600yds, for $1200 or even less- with the help of some of the armorers here in SH.

Sorry for the long post. Hope it helps in some way.

 

[223Pete]

Excellent post above and I agree. Get them close if at all possible.

 

[SWgeezer]

Just found this thread with good timing. I ordered a DTech 6DTI and received a voice mail yesterday stating it is completed and ready for shipping. I'm excited as this seems to be an awesome recipe for a coyote AR (+- 70 grain bullets). Would love to hear from others shooting the 6DTI.

Go to predatormasters.com and look in either the ar section or in the reloading section for a section devoted to 6DTI. 8208 powder is the go to powder.

 

[SWgeezer]

Got Some 22DTi/6mmDTi/25DTi/6.5DTI Data Post Here

I have had several requests from members to start a sticky post so folks can quickly access reloading data for the various DTI calibers that Mike Milli/AKA DTech of Dedicated Technology custom builds. Please Read: Note that while this data was hopefully safe in the gun that it was developed it...

www.predatormastersforums.com

6DTI data