Custom barrels and copper questions

[dreever]

I've had a lot of custom Barrels. Shilen, Kreiger, Bartlein. Usually after a minimum break-in copper isn't much of a problem. I clean after every range session regardless of number of rounds fired. I use Bore tech Eliminator or CU2 copper, and Carbon remover, patching and bronze brushing till clean. Easy, little effort.
I have a Benchmark barrel on my 6.5 Creedmoor and even after 500 rounds down the tube it still coppers like crazy. A thirty round range session will yield patches that are completely dark blue. It takes two or three times the patches and brushing, even letting the barrel soak for hours to get all the copper out.
Does anybody have any ideas to why?

 

[308pirate]

Its internal surfaces are still too rough and stripping copper from the bullet or its internal diameters a little too large and the bullet isn't sealing (obturating) properly. Most likely it's the former.

Three fixes:
1. Throw it away and replace it
2. Have someone who knows what he's doing lap it
3. Run a box of Tubb Final Finish through it, strictly following its instructions.

I vote for #3.

 

[Supersubes]

You could also contact benchmark and see if they’ll replace it. Sounds like a defect to me. No reason it should do that.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Or...you could just shoot it. Does it somehow shoot worse than your other barrels? Would you even notice if you didn't have blue patches telling you that there is copper there. Copper fouling isn't really a boogeyman. I am not a part of the "shoot it until it breaks" cult, but I also wouldn't be too concerned if the barrel shoots well. We are after the end result of accuracy, and we shouldn't be too concerned with how we got there.

 

[Winny94]

you clean after every range session?! that is crazy

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I've had a lot of custom Barrels. Shilen, Kreiger, Bartlein. Usually after a minimum break-in copper isn't much of a problem. I clean after every range session regardless of number of rounds fired. I use Bore tech Eliminator or CU2 copper, and Carbon remover, patching and bronze brushing till clean. Easy, little effort.
I have a Benchmark barrel on my 6.5 Creedmoor and even after 500 rounds down the tube it still coppers like crazy. A thirty round range session will yield patches that are completely dark blue. It takes two or three times the patches and brushing, even letting the barrel soak for hours to get all the copper out.
Does anybody have any ideas to why?

I've never had a custom barrel copper unless the chamber was cut with a POS reamer.
Just because it coppers is no reason to trash it. Just quit cleaning it that deep. If it take you 10-20 rds before it starts shooting good, don't clean it at all after your next range trip, then see how it shoot the first rds on the next trip. A barrel that coppers then cleaned to perfection each time is a catch 22
Don't clean it until the groups open up. I've had many a barrel copper before buying customs an they all would shoot 1/2 moa with copper in them as it's filling the void's if it's truly the barrel.

 

[308pirate]

you clean after every range session?! that is crazy

Nothing the matter with it.

 

[Winny94]

Nothing the matter with it.

other than the risk of damage goes up, accuracy is rarely at its peak, and its time consuming.

 

[dreever]

Or...you could just shoot it. Does it somehow shoot worse than your other barrels? Would you even notice if you didn't have blue patches telling you that there is copper there. Copper fouling isn't really a boogeyman. I am not a part of the "shoot it until it breaks" cult, but I also wouldn't be too concerned if the barrel shoots well. We are after the end result of accuracy, and we shouldn't be too concerned with how we got there.

It groups fine. It's not a Bench Rest rifle so 3/8-1/2 inch at 100 yards off the bipod I figure is acceptable. Perhaps I'm just being to critical in comparing to my other barrels and rifles.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Cleaning after every range trip is a hold over from the days of corrosive primers. Snake the bore after an before the next session an drive on.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

It groups fine. It's not a Bench Rest rifle so 3/8-1/2 inch at 100 yards off the bipod I figure is acceptable. Perhaps I'm just being to critical in comparing to my other barrels and rifles.

I would say most of my rifles group 3/8ths to 1/2...but I think that's more reflective of me being a 3/8 MOA shooter off of the bench with a bipod. I've had a few days recently that I can shoot consistent 1/3 or 1/4 MOA groups...but I think that's because I was shit hot on the gun. Same ammo as I normally use.

 

[308pirate]

other than the risk of damage goes up, accuracy is rarely at its peak, and its time consuming.

The first two are gun forum BS that gets repeated until people think it's the truth, particularly the BS about risk of damage. The third is a matter of opinion.

 

[308pirate]

Cleaning after every range trip is a hold over from the days of corrosive primers. Snake the bore after an before the next session an drive on.

Unless your barrel steel is 18% chromium or more, the anodic index voltage difference between it and copper is more than enough to cause galvanic corrosion under normal atmospheric conditions.

Where do you think barrel pitting comes from?

 

[Nik H]

I've had a lot of custom Barrels. Shilen, Kreiger, Bartlein. Usually after a minimum break-in copper isn't much of a problem. I clean after every range session regardless of number of rounds fired. I use Bore tech Eliminator or CU2 copper, and Carbon remover, patching and bronze brushing till clean. Easy, little effort.
I have a Benchmark barrel on my 6.5 Creedmoor and even after 500 rounds down the tube it still coppers like crazy. A thirty round range session will yield patches that are completely dark blue. It takes two or three times the patches and brushing, even letting the barrel soak for hours to get all the copper out.
Does anybody have any ideas to why?

Not every "copper solvent" produces the same results. Some are pretty poor at removing copper from the bore. There was a test done a while ago to validate the effectiveness of many of solvents being sold.

Have a read...you did not specify what solvent you used so maybe that has something to do with your issue.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Unless your barrel steel is 18% chromium or more, the anodic index voltage difference between it and copper is more than enough to cause galvanic corrosion under normal atmospheric conditions.

Where do you think barrel pitting comes from?

I had a 300wm Rock creek barrel that had 5440 rds threw it an still shooting 1/2moa. The barrel was sent back to R/C for inspection, The report was the first 1.5" of rifling was gone, past that the barrel had heat cracks for another 1/2" from the point forward it look perfect. I do not clean a barrel until the groups open up. That barrel was only cleaned 5-6 times in it's life. That same info was posted on the Hide with R/C's report in 2008, do the math.

 

[308pirate]

I had a 300wm Rock creek barrel that had 5440 rds threw it an still shooting 1/2moa. The barrel was sent back to R/C for inspection, The report was the first 1.5" of rifling was gone, past that the barrel had heat cracks for another 1/2" from the point forward it look perfect. I do not clean a barrel until the groups open up. That barrel was only cleaned 5-6 times in it's life. That same info was posted on the Hide with R/C's report in 2008, do the math.

None of your anecdotal stories disprove the fact that galvanic corrosion happens when you leave copper in contact with steel in an environment that has sufficient moisture.

Try to keep up

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It’s probably pissed off at you for cleaning it every time you shoot it.

If it shoots well then I don’t see the copper being a problem aside from cleaning it out. Simple solution... don’t clean the barrel until it needs to be cleaned and you won’t be having to scrub so much copper out.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

None of your anecdotal stories disprove the fact that galvanic corrosion happens when you leave copper in contact with steel in an environment that has sufficient moisture.

Try to keep up

All that meant what to the barrel life? Seems to me if I had left it a safe queen it never would have never been shot out. That barrel was 3 years old. Barrels are cheap compaired to the ammo that trashes them. The one on my 16" .308 is 15 years old an still shoots 1/2moa, so please enlighten me why I should care?

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

Correct me if im wrong, this is only an opinion: While its technically possible for galvanic corrosion to occur, i think at that point we're talking about a scientific level of corrosion, not a practical one. Definately not on a level that can be noticed by even the best shooters. How many top level PRS/NRL shooter clear copper from their barrels after every range trip? My bet is none, and theyre better than i'll ever be.
Benchrest is a different story but galvanic corrosion isnt the reason why they tend to clean their barrels more often, and as stated, the rifle in question isnt a benchrest gun.

Now, the fact that its coppering more than usual is a different matter. That is odd, and I would be curious to see what the manufacturer thinks of it.

 

[supercorndogs]

None of your anecdotal stories disprove the fact that galvanic corrosion happens when you leave copper in contact with steel in an environment that has sufficient moisture.

Try to keep up

"Try to keep up." That's a great line from someone trying to support cleaning regimens that are a hold over from 50 years ago. There is not need to clean that often and exactly what Winny94 said is true.

 

[supercorndogs]

Correct me if im wrong, this is only an opinion: While its technically possible for galvanic corrosion to occur, i think at that point we're talking about a scientific level of corrosion, not a practical one. Definately not on a level that can be noticed by even the best shooters. How many top level PRS/NRL shooter clear copper from their barrels after every range trip? My bet is none, and theyre better than i'll ever be.
Benchrest is a different story but galvanic corrosion isnt the reason why they tend to clean their barrels more often, and as stated, the rifle in question isnt a benchrest gun.

Now, the fact that its coppering more than usual is a different matter. That is odd, and I would be curious to see what the manufacturer thinks of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a rough throat from a bad reamer as gunfighter said. I have seen the same thing a few times. I could usually feel it with a patch.

 

[hlee]

Ask yourself “why am I cleaning this rifle?” If you are cleaning to remove the copper, “why am I removing the copper?” Is it accuracy issues? If not, why are you removing it? Is the copper damaging the barrel? If not, why are you removing it?

Cleaning is maintenance, so what are you fixing by removing all of the copper?

For me, if I do anything, I run a wet patch or 2 down the barrel before putting it away, and a dry patch down the barrel before shooting. Most of the time I just put the gun away. I have no evidence that the humidity of Houston tx has caused any “galvanic pitting” to any of the barrels.

It’s yOur time so spend it how you like, but I prefer to spend my time shooting. That is not to say that I don’t clean my firearms, just that I clean them when they need it, not because I am “supposed to...”

 

[Winny94]

The first two are gun forum BS that gets repeated until people think it's the truth, particularly the BS about risk of damage. The third is a matter of opinion.

They are absolutely true.

 

[dreever]

You could also contact benchmark and see if they’ll replace it. Sounds like a defect to me. No reason it should do that.

I thought about doing that, but even if they replaced it I 'd have to pay to have it chambered, threaded for the brake, and Cerakoted. I think better to just keep shooting it since it groups fine.

 

[dreever]

I would say most of my rifles group 3/8ths to 1/2...but I think that's more reflective of me being a 3/8 MOA shooter off of the bench with a bipod. I've had a few days recently that I can shoot consistent 1/3 or 1/4 MOA groups...but I think that's because I was shit hot on the gun. Same ammo as I normally use.

Yes, I've had some of those under 3/8 groups, but that's not the norm for me with this rifle. Perfect conditions, no wind, etc.

 

[BurnOut]

Run a bore mop soaked with KG2 a few times to polish the bore? Its supposed to be equivalent to 1200-1400 grit, so it'd take quite a bit of rubbing to do much damage.

 

[Scotts556]

Dont forget bronze is primarily made of copper and will give false positives. Could be your brush