Gunsmithing Cutting fluid for flush reaming

[2156SMK]

I'm getting close to finishing up my flush system, but I don't know what cutting fluid I want to run.
I know more than a few here are running chamber flush setups so I figured I might ask for advice...
What says ye?

 

[LRI]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Bacon grease! Everything goes better w/bacon so why not!

Stinky sulpherized pipe threading oil works pretty good too.

ATF.

Marvel oil.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Re-li-on

Been using it for years. Low odor, flows great through the barrel and reamer.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Use a low viscosity oil as it flows much better. I run Shell Garia 623 now. I may go to 421 next time for the lower viscosity. I do add MolyDee in a ratio of 3-1 oil to moly. Most have fatty oils in them, in other words, lard oil. I chuckle everytime I see that and think about Ferris Pindell. Some of the old ways are still the best ways.
I wish I had spent more time with that man.
See link below to shell products.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_local_TDS_TDS_131.pdf

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

The new improved PT&G site has cutting fluid recomendations.

Well let's see some pictures of your flusher.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

3 gallons of Rigid Dark Threading Oil with 1 gallon of EP Tap Magic Ultra, 3:1. You'll need to use a 25 Micron Hydraulic Filter though ahead of your pump. The tighter micron filters don’t work too well.

Tried the ATF mixture with the same oil, hated the smell.

Bypass the water based coolants like Rust lick, stinks to high heaven a few weeks later.

 

[bohem]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Roscoe-

Where are you getting the Rigid Dark? I tried to get it at 3 area Home Depots back in April. Each time the story I got was "sorry, that product has been discontinued".

I ended up ordering a high sulfur content, dark cutting fluid from McMaster because I 'needed it now' and then mixed in some MolyD.

I don't need more of it for the foreseeable future but I'm only one clutzy accident away from an oil spill at any given time anyway....

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

You ought to see the mess you can make when you're waiting for the morning caffine fix to kick in and you open the value and you wait and you wait and you wait then that OH SHIT moment over comes you.

I agree the water soluble stuff just doesn't get it for me. I tried it as recommended by a friend and at the concentration he said to use it raised the PH high enough that it became paint remover. Anybody close to me that could use a pail of Rustlick? Buy me lunch and it's yours.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roscoe-

Where are you getting the Rigid Dark? I tried to get it at 3 area Home Depots back in April. Each time the story I got was "sorry, that product has been discontinued" </div></div>

I got mine at a local Industrial Oilfield Supplier. Prior to the Rigid Oil I was using a high sulpher content threading oil that’s sold at Electrical Distributors for electricians that thread rigid conduit.

As long as it's the dark threading oil with sulpher in it I think you'll be fine. If you have a plumbing supply distributor near you, they may have it as well. Other than the color, I cant tell much difference between what I was using and what I'm using now.

The Shell product that Dave Tooley uses is also quite popular mixed with Moly D

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree the water soluble stuff just doesn't get it for me. I tried it as recommended by a friend and at the concentration he said to use it raised the PH high enough that it became paint remover. </div></div>

I have a large electrical client that runs two very large machine shops and a hard faceing operation, surface grinders, CNC lathes and mils from one end of the building to the other. Several of his machines use a water based coolant that have removed the paint to bare metal. His hard face grinders use a green water based coolant thats much worse. It actually etchs certain metal..........

Oil products are the only way to fly IMHO. Nat Lambeth does like the Rustlick though.

 

[Marriedman1]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Roscoe

Are you running the Sulphar oil through your lathe coolant system with no problems?

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GLOWWORM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roscoe

Are you running the Sulphar oil through your lathe coolant system with no problems? </div></div>

No, I built mine to use with the last lathe I had. Basically, it's a carburetor pump I purchased from MSC with an externally mounted hydraulic filtration system with a 25 micron hydraulic filter. The reservoir is an 8 gallon plastic tote I purchased at Lowes and the manifold is something I put together with a bypass valve, gauge and ball valve. The switch is to turn the flush on or off while running the lathe just incase it wants to have a run away, and it has before

The flush system can squirt like a porn star if you let it.

I re-plumbed my coolant system on the new lathe to use the same flush system as a coolant system with twin ball valves on the carriage. One for the flush system and one for the coolant system. I run the flush at 55psi when it's in use.

The tank and pump on the new lathe has never been used.

 

[bohem]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roscoe-

Where are you getting the Rigid Dark? I tried to get it at 3 area Home Depots back in April. Each time the story I got was "sorry, that product has been discontinued" </div></div>

I got mine at a local Industrial Oilfield Supplier. Prior to the Rigid Oil I was using a high sulpher content threading oil that’s sold at Electrical Distributors for electricians that thread rigid conduit.

As long as it's the dark threading oil with sulpher in it I think you'll be fine. If you have a plumbing supply distributor near you, they may have it as well. Other than the color, I cant tell much difference between what I was using and what I'm using now.

The Shell product that Dave Tooley uses is also quite popular mixed with Moly D

</div></div>

Cool, thanks. I'll take a look for an electrical supplier if/when I need more.

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

I run 50% ATF and 50% diesel. NON water based obviously. I toss in some high sulphur Marvel oil and life is good. YMMV

 

[Marriedman1]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

ROSCOE you are my hero...That is a great idea.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The flush system can squirt like a porn star if you let it. </div></div>

.......hmmmmmmmm,.....and Mr Roscoe....you would know this how????? My bet is your response will be...."Oh, a friend of a friend told me the contents of them movies...I, I, I would never watch something like that

 

[STR]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Thank you for sharing your ideas William. I truly appreciate it.

 

[bigngreen]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

I've been using Bob Pastors Vipers Venom oil, seems to work real good and easy to get a hold of.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The flush system can squirt like a porn star if you let it. </div></div>

.......hmmmmmmmm,.....and Mr Roscoe....you would know this how????? My bet is your response will be...."Oh, a friend of a friend told me the contents of them movies...I, I, I would never watch something like that

</div></div>

Thats just what I've heard, I dont have time for porn since I live such a straight and narrow life

 

[apache308]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

I went through several discussions and 3-4 combinations before I settled on Re-li-on. I tried the Rigid oil but it seem quite thick to me and did not offer the flow I was looking for with my particular system components. The Relion flows nicely and flushes out the chips sufficiently as long as your feed rate is reasonable. I think that different set ups may utilize a given oil better than the others. I did not even consider the water based solutions like Rustlick as I wanted to avoid the chance of rancid coolant smelling up the shop, getting the oil and water based mixed ,etc.

Here are a few pics of the system I use.

I made the "system" all inclusive to the lathe itself as I did not want stand alone stands, buckets, etc. I mounted the plumbing on the lathe itself without drilling it full of holes with the use of a 6061 bar and a couple brackets I made on the mill. The complete system is integral to the lathe and "streamlined" for simplicity.

I use a manifold block to serve as a both a pressure regulator and for usage to split the flow for use when threading, etc. I mounted a push button switch at easy reach for easy on-off pump operation.

I used the existing coolant tank on the lathe for the Relion and use a lathe mounted FloJet pump for the supply. It will push 95 lbs but I usually chamber at 65lbs or so.

For a filter, I use a series of magnets in the chip pan and a screen on the drain for the big stuff and then a Baldwin filter head and B5134 filter.

After the filter and manifold the oil makes it way to a Duff Norton rotary union I mounted in an adjustable aluminum bracket. I can reposition it for different length barrels. The bracket is attached to the lathe via a collet closer eye stud attached to the lathe.

Before the barrel goes into the 4 jaw for indicating, I turn a nipple on the muzzle end to secure the supply. I know, another step yes, but it only takes 5 minutes and is a solid leak free connection.

Barrel indicated in, hooked up, and ready to go.

Tenon turned, threaded, pre-bored, pump is "on" and ready for reaming.

SR

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Good lord I feel like a hillbilly now. Nice setup.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

that's some fine looking machine work on your flush system, apache.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that's some fine looking machine work on your flush system, apache. </div></div>

^^...you got that right, very neat and well put together.

 

[colchester]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Apache very nice set up I have been thinking about doing a flush system for some time now, but wasn't sure how to go about it. Hope you dont mind if I imitate your design. Is there a good source for the rotary coupler. BTW your lathe is pretty nice too.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

That is a damn nice flusher right there.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Dumore makes them.

Same idea, different way to skin this cat:

At nesika I designed/built a setup that mounted right off the backside of the spindle. The spoke camlock setup I built from scratch. Was good to 1800 rpm.

Oil was delivered at the muzzle via a drilled out tip/dead center.

I used a remcool 2300 pump. We used over 400lbs of oil pressure. We had 2300lbs on tap.

No leaks, no danger.

Use braided hose! Lol

Here's a pic or two of the old setup:

Having up to 2300lbs of coolant pressure required some additional work to the filters. I was using System One race engine filters till one blew up one day (Christmas day, 2004 actually) as I was chambering my Palma Rifle. So, that led to me completely rebuilding/designing new enclosures. these are 3/8" thick wall AL tubes with 4140 caps. I pressure tested them to 1000psi and they lived. Used them for another 2 years without incident. We'd pull the cap off once a week and wash out the System One screen element.

OP:
Nice setup on your lathe! Very well thought out!

C.

 

[apache308]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

73': Imitate away....Any questions just let me know. MSC, Grainger, drillspot, etc are all good sources for the Duff Norton rotary union. There may be other brands but these guys have a great selection and the quality is second to none. It will run you $200 or so depending where you find it. SR

 

[Marriedman1]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Anyone have any ideas on the size of the Duff Norton rotary union? As in what size hole is needed for the oil to feed through?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Here's what I used. $75 on Ebay
I mounted it on a $12.50 mirophone stand. I need to get pics and a schematic of my system up here. I have air tied into the system to blow out the coolant out of the barrel.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUFF-NORTON-R100...=item3cb30e0c0b

 

[apache308]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Several have asked so here it is.....the Duff Norton union is their 5000 Series Stainless Steel union, part #750110. Thanks, SR

 

[apache308]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

I have to give credit where credit is due......Some time back I visited with Mr. Tooley and smoked over his flush system - then picked his brain for a while regarding its usage. I then emulated some of his ideas into my system. Thanks Dave for your time and patience - it is appreciated.

hmmmmm....air "injection" huh? I feel a modification coming on....

Thanks again,
Steve Roe

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Hi Steve

I'll lay this out then follow up with a schematic if needed. When I bought my Haas TL-1 it was to be dedicated to chambering barrels. I knew I had to have more than just a flush coolant system. It took me about 6 months before I started putting it all together. I took a piece of 8" channel and mounted it on the outboard side of the headstock to give me a work surface. It extends out both sides and below the spindle. Just happened to line up with screws for the Haas cover plate.
I built a manifold on the front side of the channel that holds the coolant and air controls. I ran the coolant from the Haas tank through a valve followed by a check valve, then on to the rotary union and finally out to a 1/8 NPT nipple. Now here's the cool part. I ran an air line through a foot valve up to a needle valve on the manifold, followed by another check valve and I tee'd that in down stream of coolant check valve. That gives me two seperate isolated systems that come together in the feed line. I get close on the chamber depth I turn off the coolant, cover the barrel tenon with a cup ( <span style="font-weight: bold">very important</span> ) and with the needle valve closed I step on the foot valve and it starts to push all the coolant out of the lines. When I start to get air I open the needle valve to increase the air flow. I blow out the chamber, wipe it dry and check headspace. The use of the needle value is important so you can control the volume of air coming out.
The two pictures don't give you the best view but you can see the setup. After indicating in the muzzle I normally drill and tap the end of the barrel for a 1/8NPT and just screw the hydralic hose directly into the barrel. The bread loaf pan catches the chips and stray coolant when the hose is not attached. Pretty damn slick even if I say so myself.


http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab144/tooleyrifles/Barrelflushcoolantsystem.jpg
http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab144/tooleyrifles/HaasTL-1.jpg

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Here are your pictures without the links.

Very nice. Looks like your are getting some filings leaking out of your fittings there.

I really like the tapped barrel and the air flush. That is very cool.

 

[apache308]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Hey Dave - Work of art. Man I love that TL-1.

Thanks for sharing the pics and describing the layout of the air flush. The mouse is on the wheel......I am thinking of teeing in a port just ahead of the manifold and ball valve for an air flush.

Cool. Really cool.

SR

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

i've seen the pressures posted but what flow rate are most running? what size tank and how much fluid are you using?

i'm designing my system now and am curious how fast the fluid migrates back to the reservoir vs. how fast i can pump it through the barrel. i'll build my reservoir out of sheet metal so it can be any volume i need. i'm a broke dick so i don't want to make it so big that i can't afford to fill it though.

edit: actual flow rates, not what your pump spec say with water

 

[apache308]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

300: I cannot attest to the actual flow rate of the Flowjet as I have never actually checked it manually. I use the original Nardini chip pan and coolant tank with the tank holding a little under 3 gallons of Relion. It is not cheap so I have no desire to fill a huge tank. I have yet to run the tank dry while chambering so I never bothered to check. The original pan drainage system seems to work pretty good.

When I stated 65 lbs that is with the reamer inserted. Small short cartridges like the 6BR flush out easily, the 308 size stuff takes a little more pressure as does the larger stuff. With the reamer out there is very little pressure naturally. You will develop a feel for what it takes to flush the chips from the reamer flutes and adjust the pressure accordingly. You can actually feel some slight resistance from the flow when the pilot enters the bore.

When I first started planning the system I read all the discussions on various boards about 100's of lbs of pressure that would shoot coolant accross the shop and through the wall, complicated mazes of plumbing, etc. etc. and was a bit concerned. I discovered it is not needed. Tank, pump, filter, gauge, valve, coupling, return. As noted above I talked to Dave and went ahead with my parts and plumbing and it turned out just fine. It does its job and flushes the chips out. SR

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Hired gun

Those are chips from when I drill and tap the barrel. To the left of the indicator is a drill and extended tap. Everything laid out close to the work area.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Just a side note here. For anyone that's looking for a lathe. That Nardini 10x30 is the best I've ever seen for what we do. I've been running mine at least 18 years now. They are hard to find but worth every penny if you can find one. They were made in Brazil and not made for long. I think cost accounts got involved and figered out they were losing money on each one. They are good.

 

[colchester]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a side note here. For anyone that's looking for a lathe. That Nardini 10x30 is the best I've ever seen for what we do. I've been running mine at least 18 years now. They are hard to find but worth every penny if you can find one. They were made in Brazil and not made for long. I think cost accounts got involved and figered out they were losing money on each one. They are good. </div></div>

Dave what is the chuck mount on the 10x 30 Nardini. I may have a chance to pick up one and I hoped it interchange with the tooling for my existing lathe D1-4

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Mine is a D1-3.

 

[danpd]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Hi Dave,

thanks for sharing,


just a couple of Qs on the TL1, i picked one up a month ago, and i just wondered what your MO for chambering with one is, i noticed you dont seem to have a spider on the rear of the spindle, are you running a spindle bushing of some sort? also are you still chambering from the tailstock or are you mounting the reamer on the toolpost?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

I have a spider on both ends. The lathe is running in the other picture. I got a tailstock for a 6" Emco lathe off of Ebay and machined it down to fit a toolholder. Got the heigth right and the X offset and it's like a minature tailstock. I push it in my usual manner. I have some bushing that I use when needed for shorter barrels.

 

[m1k3]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Now that is cool!

 

[danpd]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Thanks for sharing that also, thats an idea i hadn't thought of, thanks a lot.

 

[Marriedman1]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

Ok found me a good Union....Now what pump do i need?

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

If you had to wrestle that damn tailstock you would come up with something. What a piece of crap. I hear they have a new model now. I started thinking about that setup before I ever bought my lathe. I missed a TL-1 on Ebay for $15K because I lost power 15 minutes before the auction ended and it didn't have a tailstock with it so I had already figured out a workaround. Enjoy yours they are a great machine.

 

[angelballer]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

What's wrong with the older tailstocks? Weight? If so, you could try upgrading the tailstock to a hover system.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_lathes/132072-gadget_ideas_move_tl-3_tailstock.html

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GLOWWORM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok found me a good Union....Now what pump do i need? </div></div>

i have something that i'm working on that should be replaceable even at 7:45 pm on a sunday night. i need some free time to put it all together. if it all goes together as i plan, i'll post up. if not, well...the carbonator style gear pumps people are using seem to work, just a bit out of my price range for hobby use.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

what size reservoir are most running? how many gallons of fluid are sitting in it at idle? i'm trying to get an idea of what i need to make for this. i don't want to make something too small that i have to shut down the op while waiting for the fluid to migrate back to the tank. then again, i don't want to buy 20 gallons of oil when 5 will work.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Cutting fluid for flush reaming

The systems I have seen have been between 3 and 5 gallons. Maybe less depending on how quickly you can get the oil back to the reservoir.