Advanced Marksmanship Data Book and Charts - Dope - Wind Rose - Weaponized Math - MOA to Mil - Jack Master

#101
4dds said:
Let me make sure I'm understanding this right. In the second chart your 950 dope at home is 7.5 but at -2000 you would add .5 and your 6/10 wind values become 5/9?
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Yes. You are spot on with this.

1. Yes. Smaller DA increments will be useful after 1000 or 1100 yards. The jump from 2000 to 4000 at 1100 yards become large enough that refinement is needed but i would likley try to use a balistic calculator at this disdtance. Inside 1000 i would use the 2000 jumps as shown. At shorter ranges you can used the nearest DA (rounding) and interpolate if needed to use 1000 DA jumps.
2. General numbers. (I think) These temp and pressure combinations where used to get these DAs. They were entered into an online DA calculator to get each DA. I have not observed them in the field myself. If I did this chart again I would use 60deg rather than 70 because it is the standard temperature to measure station pressure.
3. This stuff is fun for me. Thanks for following along.
 
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#105
So here's a scenario from yesterday...

555yd target
Wind from 6:30 at 18mph

Obviously the 6:30 wind bracket on the wind rose doesn't go up that high. If I rotate the rose around where I have an option to use 17/19 mph brackets AND I then walk around the rose to the full value bracket I can get a very correct or very incorrect answer depending on where I start.

So how do you do that, consistently, without effin' it up?

It's a 7mph gun after adjusting for conditions. At 550 I'd be looking at about .55 for a 7mph full value wind, on the rose it's closer to 5, so a touch less than .55 and was making good hits with .4 mil hold.

I'm familiar with the mph gun side of it, just trying to reverse engineer the wind rose so it lines up and makes sense.

If I use the 9:30 bracket as my 6:00 and the 10:00 bracket as my 6:30 for 17mph when I walk around to full value at 12:30 it's correct, showing an equivalent 5mph full value wind.

But if I use the 7:30 and 8:00 brackets for my 6:00 & 6:30 wind angles when I walk around to 10:30 for my 9:00 full value bracket it's obviously wrong at 14mph.

Make sense?

So how do you do this the right way without the hindsight of after the fact results to tell you that you have the wrong bracket in use?
 
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#106
Wind rose.
Step 1. Find 18 mph in the 12, 3, 6, or 9 o'clock box of the rose. (Its between 15 and 20)
Step 2. Follow that ring around the circle to your wind direction of 6:30. (15mph =4, 20 mph = 5)
Step 3. Interpolate between 4 and 5 = 4.5mph. This is the cross wind you need to hold for. I would use 5 mph to make a bold wind call.

Gun mile per hour.
5 mph is a bit more than half of 7.
7 mph wind = 0.55 hold at 550 yrs
3.5 mph wind is half of 7 mph hold = 0.25ish hold.
5 mph wind =.4 hold.
[Real math is 5mph÷7mph=.714. -->(.714×.55=.392) --> round to .4 hold.]

Your .4 wind hold is spot on.

No need to reverse engineer. The wind rose only gives you the cross wind speed to apply to your Gum mph. Wind rose = wind SPEED only. The wind rose does not give you a reticle hold.


Here is a wind rose example.
HOW TO Wind Rose - Corrected wind speed for Angle (1).jpg
 
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#108
Ok, so it's winter and cold as a mother in-law's kiss here so I take the time to pour over all my notes and data from the class and the ranges I got to shoot at to redo my books. I figure it gives me something to do. I really like your page layout and have decided to steal most of it for my new book ;) a few questions if you don't mind.

1) What DA ranges do you use? I'm at sea level and tend to shoot even when its cold the lowest I've seen in -811 so I was figuring starting at -2000 to be on the safe side. Now at the class I think we were in the 7000's so I think 8000 to cover there.
2) Do you go every 1000 or 2000 ft?
 
#109
slayer 2c said:
Ok, so it's winter and cold as a mother in-law's kiss here so I take the time to pour over all my notes and data from the class and the ranges I got to shoot at to redo my books. I figure it gives me something to do. I really like your page layout and have decided to steal most of it for my new book ;) a few questions if you don't mind.

1) What DA ranges do you use? I'm at sea level and tend to shoot even when its cold the lowest I've seen in -811 so I was figuring starting at -2000 to be on the safe side. Now at the class I think we were in the 7000's so I think 8000 to cover there.
2) Do you go every 1000 or 2000 ft?
Click to expand...

This is an opinion based question, But here is my opinion.
  1. What DA Ranges do You use. - I choose to make my DA card from -2000 to 10000 for 2 reasons.
    1. -2000 is pretty hard to get to so my extreme low is covered and at 10,000 ft DA is a personal physical limit for me. (I don't do well in high elevation) Plus at 10,000 feet the temperate will start to drop which will let me go to a physical higher elevation and still use a 10,000 DA. The high extreme is covered.
    2. It Fit well on my page size.
  2. Do you go every 1000 or 2000? - I choose every 2000 because that is what Frank recommended and upon studying the results I agreed.
    1. Under 1000 Yards - at this range the 2000 DA changes are manageable. At 1000 yards each 2K jump is 0.3mil adjustment. I can easily adjust that value if it were only a 1K DA change and use .1 or .2 mil. (5k DA change is between 4K DA and 6K DA I can still interpolate)
    2. Over 1000 Yards - the DA jumps start to get more severe. At 1300yds each 2K DA jump is .8 mils adjustment. This gets harder to guess my adjustment if my DA was 1500 rather than the 2000, or 3500 rather then the 4000 shown. At this distance I would prefer a 1000DA card or even 500DA to get a more accurate shooting solution. But, its more likely I would get out my calculator at this distance to fine tune my DA
I hope that is not confusing. Here is the card I use. I presented this chart in 2 ways. 1st - straight data. 2nd is the plus or minus from the home range value. Doing the 2nd version can help us understand how much DA can really effect our dope. The 2nd if more for informational used and not necessarily something I would have in my data book.

Tikka 6.5 Creed HL 130ELD 2019-10-17 Density Altitude 1.jpg Tikka 6.5 Creed HL 130ELD 2019-10-17 Density Altitude 2.jpg
 
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#110
Here is how I do my pocket data cards. The yardage continues on the back of each, out to 1150. They're about the size of a DL. That way, I don't have to haul my complete data book in the field. Attached on the ring are DA's from -4K thru +10K. While there is a section for wind, I don't add it in, as I feel I have a good handle on what mph my rifle is.

Below is the PDF if anyone wants it. Or I can send an excel file, which I find easier to edit. Just shoot me an email: [email protected]

Pocket data cards pic.jpeg
 

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#111
Thanks guys, this is really a big help!!!!

@A&8's the excel would be really helpful.

For some reason I cannot get my cold bore to export my DA to an excel format so I'm having to write down the numbers and type them in from my pdf printout.
 
#113
Quest1000 said:
I’m using Hornady factory Ammo but my temp change from the previous card is over 30F difference.


Jack, at what temp change will you make a new dope card?
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I make all my cards in the 2000 DA increments for less then 1000 yards shooting. 2000 DA change is 30 degrees of ambient temperature change, but, don't forget to add the muzzle velocity change as well.

Each 15 degrees of change is 1000 feet of DA + 500 DA change for the Muzzle velocity change (1500 total DA change). 30 degrees is 2000 feet of DA + 1000 DA change for the Muzzle velocity change (3000 total DA change).
 
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#114
Jack Master said:
I make all my cards in the 2000 DA increments for less then 1000 yards shooting. 2000 DA change is 30 degrees of ambient temperature change, but, don't forget to add the muzzle velocity change as well.

Each 15 degrees of change is 1000 feet of DA + 500 DA change for the Muzzle velocity change (1500 total DA change). 30 degrees is 2000 feet of DA + 1000 DA change for the Muzzle velocity change (3000 total DA change).
Click to expand...
Got it, I need to start thinking in DA and playing around with calculating DA. You said you would keep humidity 50%, use 60degrees rather than 70, correct?
 
#119
I gotta say thank you once again to all you guys willing to help the community so much. I listened to the podcast a few weeks ago and went looking for the info. With all your help I have rebuilt my Data book hard copy data from -2000 DA out to 11000, all the wind rose info in there, the mil conversions, weaponized math, and some extras I got from Frank/Mike. I took inspiration from Jack Master, A&8's, Mike, Frank, Mark and built a better book than I have ever bought and I own a few.

Thanks all!!!
 
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#120
Face said:
Is there a fillable weaponized math sheet?
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Face - The weaponized math it a general chart that can be used by everyone with any caliber in its current configuration. Its Try-Dope for when you are out shooting your rifle the vary first time. (no reliable computer program or dope chart yet)

Have a look back at this thread and watch the video to understand it a bit better.

Jack Master said:
Also here
Click to expand...
 
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#122
Jack Master said:
Face - The weaponized math it a general chart that can be used by everyone with any caliber in its current configuration. Its Try-Dope for when you are out shooting your rifle the vary first time. (no reliable computer program or dope chart yet)

Have a look back at this thread and watch the video to understand it a bit better.
Click to expand...
I understand that. Just thought instead of writing down the actual dope on separate paper. it would be nice to write it in the actual dope column but i can get white out. Thanks
 
#129
Tree said:
Couldn't you write your
3xm1977 said:
What is the best calculator to use to fill out the data for the cards. Or is it supposed to auto fill when putting in my numbers?
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Shoot at 300 yards to see what your hold over is. After establishing your drop look at chart and find the line that matches up with your actual 300 yard dope. After that they give try dope for every 100 yards. That dope should get you in the ballpark. Write the numbers of what your dope actually was for next outing.
Click to expand...
 
#131
Jack Master and everyone else that has gave me suggestions on a calculator. I went ahead and paid the $14.99 for BallisticARC for my phone and tablet. I think it will do what I need it for.
 
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#132
3xm1977 said:
Jack Master and everyone else that has gave me suggestions on a calculator. I went ahead and paid the $14.99 for BallisticARC for my phone and tablet. I think it will do what I need it for.
Click to expand...


I have that as well. I find that I dope the rifles out on paper using the weaponized math from Mark first. Once I have Actual verified numbers and all the environmentals recorded from my kestrel I'll take all that data to cold bore and true the software to real world numbers. You can do the same with JBM for free if you don't want to buy cold bore. I find the computer programs much easier to true than the phone apps, and the ability to cut and paste my numbers into an excel spread sheet invaluable. Once I know what the computer numbers are I can build my own data cards how I like them. I find that building them cements the format in my mind so I can look at them much easier and not confuse all the numbers on the chart. Also once the numbers are trued I can take the numbers from the computer program to my apps and kestrel so all my stuff lines up together.

My goal for 2020 is to be as electronics free as possible. First step is established data on cards, then the harder part...….perfecting the wind call.
 
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#133
@Jack Master do you have a fillable DA pdf and mover pdf? Also for the weaponized math chart, should the true dope column be blank so we can fill in our actual drop values? I'm getting my data book ready for a class next weekend and all of these pages are awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to make these.
 
#134
kriller134 said:
@Jack Master do you have a fillable DA pdf and mover pdf? Also for the weaponized math chart, should the true dope column be blank so we can fill in our actual drop values? I'm getting my data book ready for a class next weekend and all of these pages are awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to make these.
Click to expand...
No, Sorry man, I have not gotten the DA PDF made yet, and the Mover has to have some Calculations capability so I am not sure that one can be a fill-able PDF. I'll work on the DA sheet in the coming weeks.

The weaponized math is not intended to be a sheet to fill in your data. Read post #117 to #124 above about this.
This sheet is straight formulas and math completed for you, you just pick the values and it gives you try-dope. You won't use this sheet again after you get your rifle doped out, No need to full it out. You should be writing your trues dial elevations down someplace else.
 
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#137
Chaseerickson12 said:
Is it possible to work the weaponized math backwards? I went to the range today to true my dope at 540,886,1055, and 1310. Would like to know if I can use the math to fill in my blank areas. Let me know
Click to expand...
The weaponized math is intended you help you find initial data, like you did today.

If you already have dope for those ranges you should use a ballistic program to fill in the blank areas. With dope at 540 and 1310 you can true your program and have more reliable values than the weaponized math.

Sure you could use the weaponized math... but it won't be as good as a trued ballistic program.
 
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#138
Jack Master said:
The weaponized math is intended you help you find initial data, like you did today.

If you already have dope for those ranges you should use a ballistic program to fill in the blank areas. With dope at 540 and 1310 you can true your program and have more reliable values than the weaponized math.

Sure you could use the weaponized math... but it won't be as good as a trued ballistic program.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply and that’s what I’ll ended up doing. Does anyone have experience with trying dope on strelok pro
 
#139
Jack Master said:
How do you have a paper chart for Density Altitude (DA) changes in your dope? Do any of you have a DA sheet in your Data Book?

I have read and been told to have drop charts for every 2000DA change. My home range is usually around 2000DA. This means I need a drop chart for -2000ft, 0ft, 2000ft, 4000ft, 6000ft, 8000ft, 10,000ft. That's 7 pages in a dope book for one rifle. I don't really want to have that many pages for one rifle (yes, I want ONE data Book for all my rifles). With 3 rifles is 21 pages to sift through. So... below is the chart I made for changing DA. Now I have 2 pages, my Home range dope chart with the wind information on the back and a DA dope chart.

Things to Note
  1. Data recorded - at the top of the chart is how I got the DA numbers. This way I can reference how temperature might change the DA as well as the station pressure. (note the comment in the margin about how temp change = DA change)
  2. All of these are at 50% humidity. To keep this simple I had to eliminate a variable, humidity was it. While I think it will effect things more after 1000yds I don't think it has enough variance inside 1000 to worry about.
  3. Wind - The wind row has 2 numbers in it. The 2 numbers are the wind speeds that are equivalent to the wind hold for 2000DA. Example - if I'm shooting at 6000DA, 800 yards - a 7mph hold is 0.9 mils (6mph from 2000DA) and a 12mph hold is 1.6mil (10mph hold for 2000DA) this allowed the chart to re-use 2 columns of information for each DA change and for me to know what my Rifle MPH is at each DA.
  4. After doing this I think the chart will work out to 1000 or 1100 yards. After that a more refined DA chart may be warranted. At 1100 yards jumping 2000DA is a 0.4 mil jump, that's about 16" of change. For an accurate shot I recommend consulting your Ballistic program on the longer shots with changing DA, but these values will at least give you a starting point if you don't have any other information. of you'll need to pin down your true DA and guess between numbers if needed.
  5. I presented this chart in 2 ways. 1st - straight data. 2nd is the plus or minus from the home range value. Doing the 2nd version can help us understand how much DA can really effect our dope. The 2nd if more for informational used and not necessarily something I would have in my data book.

Let me know what you think.

1st chart Raw DA values
View attachment 7172626

2nd chart - Difference in DA from my home range.
View attachment 7172627
Click to expand...

@Jack Master is there any way to have these shared as an editable document? I think they're awesome.
 
#140
captainmorgan460 said:
@Jack Master is there any way to have these shared as an editable document? I think they're awesome.
Click to expand...

I have updated the 1st post of the thread with a Google sheets link so you all can make your own and print your own or download them to Excel. The sheet includes the main Data book page (minus wind info), the movers charts and the DA charts.
 
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#143
drive.google.com

3x5 BLANK DOPE CARD.xlsx

drive.google.com drive.google.com

Annotation 2020-03-10 195632.png


There's been some amazing documents shared here and I appreciate the contributions. Here's my attempt to contribute. I made a sheet to fill in that prints a 3" x 5" card to fit in arm bands and what not. Shared link above.
 

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#144
Chaseerickson12 said:
Is it possible to work the weaponized math backwards? I went to the range today to true my dope at 540,886,1055, and 1310. Would like to know if I can use the math to fill in my blank areas. Let me know
Click to expand...
YES - Use the chart from Right to Left. Just skip the "Try" to the left of your curren yard line data.
 
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#145
I love the weaponized math, but now that you have real world dope why wouldn't you enter that into your ballistic calculator if choice and have a full curve?
 
#146
captainmorgan460 said:
drive.google.com

3x5 BLANK DOPE CARD.xlsx

drive.google.com drive.google.com

There's been some amazing documents shared here and I appreciate the contributions. Here's my attempt to contribute. I made a sheet to fill in that prints a 3" x 5" card to fit in arm bands and what not. Shared link above.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing @captainmorgan460 . Can you clarify what the "42.9" is in the top right? I can't figure it out for the life of me.

I assume the 270 is the wind direction? Is the 42.9 the DoF? Sorry if I'm being dense.
 
#148
rob.sfo said:
Thanks for sharing @captainmorgan460 . Can you clarify what the "42.9" is in the top right? I can't figure it out for the life of me.

I assume the 270 is the wind direction? Is the 42.9 the DoF? Sorry if I'm being dense.
Click to expand...

Probably just delete that. That was a note I had in there for latitude and shoot direction. But took all of that out of the data. Put whatever you want in there!
 
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#149
@Jack Master I used your Weaponized Math sheet today taking my shorty 308 out to 625 for the first time. It worked great!

16.5" 308, 175 SMK, 44.1 Varget, Lapua Palma
~700-800 DA / 63*F
2485 FPS
  • 1.6@300 said 2.8, ended up being 2.7
  • 2.7@400 said 3.7, was spot on
  • 3.7@500 said 5.1, ended up at 5.4
  • 5.4@600, 5.7@625.
Tomorrow I'll be taking it out as far as I can push it (range goes to ~2000). I'll report back on the 700-1000 results (although I've now got enough data to true my software so I'll compare the Weaponized math to that).

Thanks again for a great resource, it was awesome being on the line with just my rifle & my data book, instead of my nose being buried in software.
 
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#150
seansmd said:
I love the weaponized math, but now that you have real world dope why wouldn't you enter that into your ballistic calculator if choice and have a full curve?
Click to expand...

You would. The weaponized math is merely for new guns, loads, etc.It gives you a starting point. Once you have the true data, that is what you use to true your Ballistic calc. You’re just, essentially, reshaping the bell curve in your calc.
 
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