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Advanced Marksmanship Data Book and Charts - Dope - Wind Rose - Weaponized Math - MOA to Mil - Jack Master
- Thread starter Jack Master
- Start date
Weaponized math is for every caliber. That is the beauty of it.
I'k glad its working for you. Credit goes to @Enough Said for the system. I just put it on a paper chart.
Huge props to the creator or course, but it's no small thing to turn a good idea into a usable product. So credit to both of you.
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Storm Tactical took good care of me recently, and they are honest people. Order a book, you won't be disappointed.
I've converted the weaponized math to MOA. I know there is a conversion table next to it but this is just more convenient in my dope book.
I used the lay-out and data from the Original weaponized math, all credits go to @Enough Said and @Jack Master. If someone is offended by it or if it is not allowed then please remove my post.
I used the lay-out and data from the Original weaponized math, all credits go to @Enough Said and @Jack Master. If someone is offended by it or if it is not allowed then please remove my post.
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As an exercise I filled out a table of random distances from 65yd to 1035yd last night with my best guess as both drop and wind. The sheet said to use a 10 mph, full value wind. Afterward you check your guess against your ballistic calculator.
My guesses on my drop weren’t very good so I need to work on memorizing those. But my wind “calls” were extremely good because I used this method. My guesses were all within 0.2 mil of what the calculator confirmed.
My guesses on my drop weren’t very good so I need to work on memorizing those. But my wind “calls” were extremely good because I used this method. My guesses were all within 0.2 mil of what the calculator confirmed.
Update 5/13/2020 - I have updated the Google Document.
- On the Density Altitude sheet the - Station pressure is now calculated for you once you enter the temperature and desire density altitude. This way you can simply fill the DA sheet in for what you want and input that into your ballistic calculator. You no longer need to calculate DAs. Give it the desired DA and temp and it will tell you the station pressure to put in your calculator.
- I have added more sheets to the wrist coach. You can now print out Dope sheets for each of the columns on the DA sheet.
Check this info....15 degrees is a 1000 foot change from standard at the given elevation.
For example. If I'm on the beach in standard conditions, My DA is 0. But if the temp goes up and pressure stays the same (not likely, just illustrating an example) whats my DA now? 1000 even though pressure didn't change.
On a personal note, I'm not convinced this is the best way to tackle this. the DA should be derived not the pressure. IMO, its better to make one of these charts for every say .5" if Hg and every 10 degrees. this would give a more accurate solution, especially since the formula is already 120 feet off in standard conditions (wont cause a miss, but errors could compound). The answer should be 29.92 ( it will actually be a touch higher since we are assuming a 50% RH) not 30.04
View attachment 7325289
This is how the header on my Field cards is set up:
The 3 rows of numbers are MV, DA, Temp respectively. The DA is calcultaed based on the Pressure setting in the header and temp with 50% RH.
Attachments
This is not for standard DA changes due to temperature change. This is for change in muzzle velocity due to temperature change.
Think of this from A "filling out the spreedsheet" direction. As a user. When we make a DA sheet we want to have good round #s. We don't want 2038da we want 2000. So I wrote the equation to give us the station pressure that we then put in our ballistic program, then fill out the drop data on the sheet. It's helping the user know what pressure to use in thier program. On the main drop sheet (first one) I used the temp and pressure to get the da since this could be what you recorded in the field while gathering dope. That DA could be anything, but on a DA sheet, I want the round numbers.
Agreed. Your chart is likely more accurate. But, to do 0.5 hg from 32.00 to 24.00 you will have 16 pages of data. Or, you can have 4 pages (30 to 28) and you'll have to use barometric pressure rather than station pressure plus know your elevation. With 16 charts... or even 4 charts you've repeated most of your data 3 times because they become the same DA. Plus, if you are looking up a pressure and temperature YOU ARE NOT USING DA. When shooting, if its hot, and I have a low station pressure I get 3000ft DA then have cold and a high station pressure I have the same 3000DA. Both of these have nearly the same shooting solution. When I'm useing the card in the field i calulate my DA and use that column. I don't use the temp or station pressure on the chart unless I need to make the muzzle velocity correction, this is why temp is listed.
And let's make sure we are looking at this in context. Changing 2000 DA and shooting under 500 yards is not going to effect our bullet flight enough to matter. Changing 2000 DA and shooting 500 to 1000yds is going to have some effect. Inside 1000yds i have found rounding up or down 500da and interpolating on the sheet has worked well for me. Over 1000 we'll need to consult a ballistic calculator to get a refined solution, my chart is a bit too course for that, but it gives you a starting place if you can't get out a calculator. Understand the context of how much change will really happen. Change in temp, change in DA, change in data.
Yes, the equation is not perfect because I had to manually apply a correction factor for the humidity. I have found this to be 27 feet off. Here is the website that i have found to be most accurate. https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm. If you'd like to come up with a more accurate formula I'd be happy to have a look at it. Remember the context, rounding 500 feet is not out of the ordinary unless you are shooting ELR. This chart is mostly for inside 1000 as I stated in the original post.
Most of this is a fundamental disagreement about how to use DA, we're both correct, we're just using the data differently.
Agreed. Nothing you did was incorrect. Just adding to the convo.
I will say this though, the part about the temp change and the DA every 15 degrees doesn’t jive with what your chart says. Can you explain it to my thick head
Sure. So the +-15 degrees = +-500 DA is for muzzle velocity change due to temperature change. This adjustment is a rule of thumb. Warmer ambient temperatures will ignite gun powder faster and cause faster bullet speeds. The easiest might be an example.
Example.
One the range you find your temp and station pressure then convert this to DA. Say it was 4000feet DA for that day. If my 4000 da data was computed on a 60 degree temperature but today it is 90 degrees, a 30 degree difference, i need to add 1000 feet of DA to the 4000 already figured. My bullet if going to fly closer to a 5000 DA data because it will exit the rifle faster.
Make sense?
Similar if it's colder, my bullet will exit the rifle slower And I need to subtract DA.
With more modern powders this rule of thumb has become less and less but it still plays an effect. 4dof for example has a temerature/velocity correction if you actually In put what powder you are using.
Excellent explanation... thanks a bunch. I was having the same question and needed the context on how you developed the sheet. Copied and definitely going into the data book. Actually, residing on the HD so I can make the data book pages! Thanks again.
Thanks ROW. I decided to update mine as well.
I posted an MOA version of the weapoized math in the first post of this thread. I also re-vamped the MOA to mil conversion so MOA is the base number.
Your DA is your altitude if the temperature is 60 degrees F. I use that as my base here in AK because we NEVER see a temp above 80 degrees at most of the places I shoot. In the summer, it's either 45, 60 or 75 degrees. Easy to pull out a Kestrel, but conditioning your shooting mind to temperature and altitude will provide a DA to within 1000 feet.
Excellent thought, research and graphing. -- Taylor
Excellent thought, research and graphing. -- Taylor
Since Jack Master and I took Frank's class last fall, I have went nearly 100% away from ballistic calcs, using hard dope instead. Also, this year I started shooting more and more movers. Movers require TOF (Time of Flight.) Below is a card I use on page 2 of my wrist coach (page 1 is plain blank index cards with stage data.) Fold these in 1/2 length wise, laminate and stick in window closest to your arm. Laminating prevents sweat from soaking your top index card and making it bleed.
I have this in excel format, too. If anyone wants it, shoot me a message.
Hope this helps.
I have this in excel format, too. If anyone wants it, shoot me a message.
Hope this helps.
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Thank you very much for all of the excel sheets! I was struggling hard to make a dope card print out to 3x5 last weekend.
Is it possible to get an Meters per second windclock for us ? Of an editeble file o that u can change the numbers ?
Great work!
Great work!
This modified wind rose will work for any form or measurement. Miles/hour. Km/hr. meters/sec. or light years/day. Its only a trigonometric solutions of angles for given values. No units of measurements are really given. This chart works in Meters/second as shown. (although 25 meters per second might be a bit windy)
If I made a meters/second wind rose what speeds would you want to see? 2,4,6,8,10?
Thanks
How does his look? Its tough to get the decimals to look right with text size and spacing. Feed back is welcome.
It is 22.4 miles per hour...I have shot in wind like that a few times
The second rose is cool too. You said it can be any velocity measurement, right?
So this could essentially be a finer look at the slower winds in mph as well.
Between the two charts you have basically covered all of the mph gun ratings as well.
Really cool way to reference this information.
So this could essentially be a finer look at the slower winds in mph as well.
Between the two charts you have basically covered all of the mph gun ratings as well.
Really cool way to reference this information.
Document everything! It’s better to throw out what you don’t need, than try to remember what happened.
Maybe someone has already done this and I missed it but playing with formulas to quickly get wind from chart , that will work for multiple mph guns and wind speeds quickly instead of referencing app to make hard copies. If this proves out just print this data for hard copies to reference with wind wheel. Past 800 my numbers may need tweaked (or all of them for that matter). You can change the values in Yellow (the mph of gun and actual wind mph and it will update the wind holds. You can make your own copy from google and play with #'s. I played with my 6.5x47 and 224 valk numbers. I've always said my x47 seemed to be about 7mph gun and the numbers worked for it there to match my ballistic calculator. My valkyrie I always thought was 5-6 mph, well making it a 5.2 mph gun lines it up about perfect with ballistic calculator. Just hoping this will save time, I know i can write all this from ballistic calculator. Tear it apart and let me know how it lines up for you guys.
Sorry MOA shooters, this is for Mils.
docs.google.com
Sorry MOA shooters, this is for Mils.
wind sheet
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I just have to say thanks again @Jack Master !
I hope that you don't get burnt out by all of the requests for more....Its easy for everybody to take from the generous.
I really appreciate the work you have done, as I personally do NOT know how to manipulate excel sheets or have the ability to take that math and present it in such an organized manner.
I hope that you don't get burnt out by all of the requests for more....Its easy for everybody to take from the generous.
I really appreciate the work you have done, as I personally do NOT know how to manipulate excel sheets or have the ability to take that math and present it in such an organized manner.
This is absolute fire. I've always found it difficult to explain to friends getting into shooting how a 10mph wind becomes a 5 mph wind because of direction. This visual will help a ton with that.
Am I correct in my understanding of the tool, that these charts are something where you confirm data and input all of it at a set atmospherics, and the output is essentially a multiple atmospheric condition data set based on the single input set? Aka you've made your own ballistic calculator here?
I've tried to do something similar in the past by using the JBM outputs. It would take the multi day band output, and eventually spit it out into 3x5 card formats at specified DA bands. I found getting the output 100% dialed to be frustrating at times because of printers...
I've since made some 3x5 PDF cards that are blank range cards, checklists, TOF reference, hard data backups for bc and MV, that type of stuff. Obviously putting the hard dope on the cards takes longer than if it were automatic, but it still works. Happy to share here as well.
I'm trying to understand if this is a calculator you built, or a place to reorganize data that you input into a more useful output.
Great stuff here. Will be using elements of it in my own DIY references!
No, this is not a Ballistic Calculator. All of this is a place to write down on paper what your ballistic calculator tells you. About the only thing this will calculate for you is DA once you input the Station pressure and Temperature.
These sheets are meant to only get the information out of your kestrel, Hornady, AB app, or other system onto paper. Its Organizing your data on to Paper that you can carry in you pocket or up the mountain or at a match.
Thanks for the clarification here. Excited to jump in and play around with it all. Having built a tool that pulls data and condenses/displays in various outputs, I can appreciate the time spent on these formulas.
@Jack Master you inspired me to put some effort into the tool I had tried building in the past. Specifically, this tool is to take the JBM ballistics multi DA chart builder, and turn it into a single chart, as well as 3x5 cards.
To use this, start at JBM ballitics. You use their trajectory card tab to get the Multiple DA output tool. You take their output, scrub the data a bit, and you immediately have 3x5 card outputs that you can then print out.
For me, this isn't my primary calculator. I run AB mobile on my phone, and I do this once I have validated data. I then try to recreate my curve in JBM, and most of the time, it's within 1/10th of a mil for all distances, even out to ELR(confirmed data in a few cases). I find this much quicker to use than creating and inputting one DA at a time worth of data. I'll then print out each 3x5 card to run for match data, and print out the single chart on rite in rain paper to have as a hard backup.
Check it out, holler with improvements. And, thanks for the conversation surrounding this. There's so many good tools at our disposal to make life easier.
To use this, start at JBM ballitics. You use their trajectory card tab to get the Multiple DA output tool. You take their output, scrub the data a bit, and you immediately have 3x5 card outputs that you can then print out.
For me, this isn't my primary calculator. I run AB mobile on my phone, and I do this once I have validated data. I then try to recreate my curve in JBM, and most of the time, it's within 1/10th of a mil for all distances, even out to ELR(confirmed data in a few cases). I find this much quicker to use than creating and inputting one DA at a time worth of data. I'll then print out each 3x5 card to run for match data, and print out the single chart on rite in rain paper to have as a hard backup.
Check it out, holler with improvements. And, thanks for the conversation surrounding this. There's so many good tools at our disposal to make life easier.
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This is beyond helpful! Thank you to everyone who has contributed.
Forgive me if I missed it, but is there a fillable mover sheet in here somewhere. I saw the one specific for a 6.5 Tikka. But Im looking for one to input my own data. I do understand that it is specific to time of flight/velocity, and I understand the principal that one would use to find the numbers. I just dont know where to begin with the formula. If anyone would be willing to share the formula they used, or the form they have the formula in, I would greatly appreciate some help.
Again I cant express how helpful this has been in helping me build a useable, readable, accurate book. Thanks again
Forgive me if I missed it, but is there a fillable mover sheet in here somewhere. I saw the one specific for a 6.5 Tikka. But Im looking for one to input my own data. I do understand that it is specific to time of flight/velocity, and I understand the principal that one would use to find the numbers. I just dont know where to begin with the formula. If anyone would be willing to share the formula they used, or the form they have the formula in, I would greatly appreciate some help.
Again I cant express how helpful this has been in helping me build a useable, readable, accurate book. Thanks again
If you go to the Google sheet linked in the first post you can fill in your data and time of flight. The spreadsheet will do the rest for you.
I’m pretty new to the world of dope books, charts, etc. Would someone mind telling me how to use this weaponized math chart. Link below.
MOA Weaponized Math Chart
MOA Weaponized Math Chart
In the first column find the elevation your round needs to hit at 300. The second column is a suggested starting point to hit at 400. The third column is what it actually took to hit at 400 etc. At the top of the columns it shows the multiplier used to come up with the elevation adjustments.
You can start at 200, it's usually 2 MOA +/- a bit, then you can move out with the chart doing the simple math you are progress out
Use the math number to get on the plate, then fine tune your scope up or down to hit waterline then record that data and move out with pre-trued data as you march downrange
Thank you sir, I understand better now. In Weaponized Math Chart, why do most of the boxes have values in them and
Why does the 300 yd column have
Why does the 300 yd column in the first chart have 6 empty rows while there are no empty rows in the 1000 yd column?
Because of the chance your shot from 300 needs to be corrected with less come up. So if the calculated estimate was too much your true come up will be less. This will accumulate across the chart to 1000 yards .
Oh maybe because we have a “try dope” and then and actual, which is our way of saying you can adjust from the math plus or minus to hit water line ?
But I didn’t understand the question?
But I didn’t understand the question?
