Deciding on a robust AR10

[bantaman2]

About the only thing missing from my gun stable is a large frame semi auto. I have been kicking around the idea of picking up an AR10 in 308 that I can shoot out to 800m with. I want this thing to be able to take abuse of being carried around the woods for hunting, and riding around in the truck with me. I plan I’m using a suppressor with this thing. My short list is a 16” PredatOBR, a gap 10, and maybe a JP.

Should the PredatAR be on my list? Or should I say fuck it and get a suppressed 10/22 backpacker and get drunk while killing squirrels? What are your thoughts or opinions on a robust AR10?

 

[TangoSierra916]

Not sure what your budget is but I recommend the LMT MWS. With the ability to change calibers you can roll with .308 or 6.5cm in various barrel lengths. Its a very proven platform and very smooth shooting. Many good options including the ones you listed.

 

[_Windrider_]

My thoughts on the OBR..........Fuck LaRue.

 

[bantaman2]

My thoughts on the OBR..........Fuck LaRue.

Is this due to warranty issues, quality control, or just a personal dislike for the company?

 

[bantaman2]

Not sure what your budget is but I recommend the LMT MWS. With the ability to change calibers you can roll with .308 or 6.5cm in various barrel lengths. Its a very proven platform and very smooth shooting. Many good options including the ones you listed.

My only reason for not including it is the weight. I hear it is a pig of a rifle

 

[_Windrider_]

Is this due to warranty issues, quality control, or just a personal dislike for the company?

All of the above. Once they have your money they don’t give 2 shits about you.

 

[knuckleballz]

I have 2 jp lrp07 rifles that I run supressed. They are seriously accurate rifles that I have hunted with in the mountains. I am a big fan of the side charger for running a suppressor.

 

[TangoSierra916]

My only reason for not including it is the weight. I hear it is a pig of a rifle

Ive owned the lrp-07, lmt mws and dd5v2 and honestly love the lmt. I don’t think it’s “heavy” but it is an ar10s so they’ll carry some weight with them. With today’s options you can mess with configurations to get the weight and feel where you want it. The LMT offers quad rail, mlok and slick side one piece uppers for the hand guards. It’s extremely well balanced in my opinion and shoots great. I don’t recall the JP weight but I felt like the JP felt heavier due to its components. With this level of rifle you’re looking at you can configure for years to get the feel you want. I’ll try to find specs but I feel like my lmt is lighter than the JP I had. But as always it’s a lot of preference too.

 

[M8541Reaper]

LaRue OBR, KAC, or LMT MWS (slickside not the quad rail) would be how I’d go and all are pretty much the definition of robust. Gun to head, I’d go LMT MWS because of the accuracy (their SS barrels are lasers), one piece upper/monolithic rail, ability to easily swap calibers, and ambi controls. Don’t get me wrong, I really liked my OBR, but the LMT is where it’s at. Between those two and the KACs, I’d still personally go LMT. Nothing against KAC and they’ve served me well, but the one piece rail and barrel swap puts LMT over KAC. Accuracy wise, there isn’t a difference between KAC and LMT.

When it comes to weight, they are all proven battle rifles that are designed for exactly that, so weight is something that is a given.

That being said, I’ve never used the JP but a lot of dudes swear by them. Never having handled it, or the GAP, I can’t give an educated opinion on em.

 

[RyanScott]

KAC or LMT are the only two companies with major military contracts. There are other companies with important, unique or high prestige military and LE contracts (LaRue, Seekins) but you asked about robust and those two have fielded guns to militaries in the five digits and learned lessons from doing so.

 

[theLBC]

Scar 20S

 

[loveha]

Another option is a Sig 716. It's heavy piece as well, at least the first Gen is. Haven't held a G2.

 

[AIAW]

 

[bantaman2]

I think the only reason why a PredatOBR is on my short list is because it brakes down into a small package. I’ll have to read more about the MWS, it seems to be a little rough with a suppressor.

Is an 18” barrel the most optimal? Or would a 16” or even a 14.5” give just about the same performance but make it easier to move around with a can on the end?

 

[ForgeValley]

LMT. Hit the gym.

 

[nn8734]

About the only thing missing from my gun stable is a large frame semi auto. I have been kicking around the idea of picking up an AR10 in 308 that I can shoot out to 800m with. I want this thing to be able to take abuse of being carried around the woods for hunting, and riding around in the truck with me. I plan I’m using a suppressor with this thing. My short list is a 16” PredatOBR, a gap 10, and maybe a JP.

Should the PredatAR be on my list? Or should I say fuck it and get a suppressed 10/22 backpacker and get drunk while killing squirrels? What are your thoughts or opinions on a robust AR10?

How much do you have to spend on the rifle, not counting optics and accessories?

KAC ACC (URX4 keymod/MLOK) - typical “PX” price 4-5k
KAC EMC - typical “PX” price 5-6k
LMT MWS - typical “PX” price 2-3k dep on legacy or Slickside (many parts are common between KAC and LMT as they have a close working relationship)
LaRue OBR - typical”PX” price 3-3.5k

All three are considered robust, accurate and reliable and would meet your needs. MWS has quick end-user barrel/caliber change capabilities, monolithic rail for increased stability in the upper, excellent customer support. KAC retains its retail value, runs great and had the MAMS break-suppressor Mount system which IMO is best on the market (others may disagree). OBR is accurate and looks cool, esp if paired with suppressor. Though the cylindrical hand guard may or may not be for you). Factory triggers are solid for all three.

I have owned an MWS for 4 years and currently own an SR25 (1.5+ years). Never owned an OBR but have shot them.

MWS drawbacks as I see them: Weight, Challenges with suppressors (Socom RC2 would be a good choice given it’s low backpressure)

KAC drawbacks as I see them: Price, weight if running old URX/URX2 like mine with no dimpled barrel

OBR drawbacks: Post purchase customer support and potential QC issues (search the web for more details)

Honorable mention:
-JP (very accurate)
-Smith Wesson MP10 (inexpensive, decent accuracy based on my own experience with a friend’s)
- AR10T/SASS - reasonable relative cost, decent accuracy, factory adjustable gas system (Super SASS) (had a Super SASS for a couple years back 2010-2012.)
- GAP - prob the most customizable from the get go and highly accurate (it’s GA precision after all)

Just my .02

 

[MPDS13]

I would not count out the new Remington R10. It is a little lighter and smaller than most AR10s but accurate as hell and just as durable. Or you could even pick up a DPMS G2 and have it completely rebuilt with new parts. It is kind of annoying having to completely take off most of the factory G2 parts, but afterwards you have a very accurate rifle that is slightly lighter and shorter most AR10s.

 

[RyanScott]

It has a lot to do yet to prove itself. But it’s promising.
The Colt 901 would have been a contender with more support and some changes. Like not being so modular.

 

[sea2summit]

I’m right at about 4,500 rounds in the tOBR heavy. The platform is my go to for everything, the heavy has killed hundreds of pigs including a heli hunt but these are all I have on the phone. It’s hunted in four states to include Alaska and put hundreds of pounds of food on the table.

 

[M8541Reaper]

LMT. Hit the gym.

^Makes weight a non-issue. Plus 99% of peeps are only physically carrying them to and from the car at the range.

Note: Weight non-issue aside, I can’t comment to running the LMT suppressed.

 

[RyanScott]

Guns are heavy enough already without having to make them heavier. The extra 1.5 pounds of an MWS could have been another magazine.

How well does the Predatobr return to zero?

 

[nn8734]

@RyanScott Agree, esp if hiking into camp with the rifle in a pack. I know my LMT felt noticeably heavier than my SR25 in my Eberlestock (I had them both for a while).

Am kicking around buying an OBR in 6.5 so will add any relevant/potentially helpful info to this thread as I continue in my research...

 

[ForgeValley]

Well, it's not a debate we will solve, there are entire books written about the topic, here is a good one:

Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation: Marshall, Colonel S. L. A.: 9780940328402: Amazon.com: Books

Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation [Marshall, Colonel S. L. A.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation

www.amazon.com

I'll take the extra pound or so, knowing I can beat someone's head in with my LMT without worrying about it breaking. 'Robust' was the OP's primary concern, and it doesn't get much more robust than the MWS.

Just as an aside, in my younger days I went about a buck sixty and was the M60 and later the SAW gunner for my scout squad. Motivation is important.

 

[RyanScott]

That book is excellent and the recommendations consistent with those of every other worthwhile study on the topic.

At a basic level the weight should justify itself. That’s why most people use 5.56 over 7.62 and it’s why organizations with more generous budgets are seen more often with the SR-25 over the MWS. Does the barrel change feature justify the weight? Maybe, maybe not. I have an MWS because the entire rifle was $1000 cheaper than my SR-25 upper. For that kind of savings I’m ok with the weight, for a hunting gun.

 

[sea2summit]

Well, it's not a debate we will solve, there are entire books written about the topic, here is a good one:

Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation: Marshall, Colonel S. L. A.: 9780940328402: Amazon.com: Books

Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation [Marshall, Colonel S. L. A.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation

www.amazon.com

I'll take the extra pound or so, knowing I can beat someone's head in with my LMT without worrying about it breaking. 'Robust' was the OP's primary concern, and it doesn't get much more robust than the MWS.

Just as an aside, in my younger days I went about a buck sixty and was the M60 and later the SAW gunner for my scout squad. Motivation is important.

You're going to reference a historian who's talking about Soldiers carrying an M1 Garand in your argument for carrying more weight? Hard pass.

 

[ForgeValley]

You're going to reference a historian who's talking about Soldiers carrying an M1 Garand in your argument for carrying more weight? Hard pass.

You missed the point entirely. You will NEVER carry the loadout of one of those soldiers, so quite crying about another pound on your weapon, even if you are currently active.

ETA:

And, it wasn't an argument for carrying more weight. It is an argument for carrying SMART weight.

 

[nn8734]

@sea2summit - what is the total weight of your POBR as shown without the can on it (see last pic in your above post)?

 

[sea2summit]

You missed the point entirely. You will NEVER carry the loadout of one of those soldiers, so quite crying about another pound on your weapon, even if you are currently active.

ETA:

And, it wasn't an argument for carrying more weight. It is an argument for carrying SMART weight.

I have carried their loadout (by weight and volume), as a matter of fact I've carried more than their load out just in base weight when the army went full retard on armor in '07-08, I've read more than a few of Marshall's books/papers and I'm usually pretty good at seeing some points. I would think "smart weight" is very often equivalent to less weight but that's just me.

 

[sea2summit]

@sea2summit - what is the total weight of your POBR as shown without the can on it (see last pic in your above post)?

I don't have a weight in that configuration but with atlas and 20rnd mag it's 13.5# on the bathroom scale as I recall from when I got it. So probably 11.25-11.75# in the picture? Don't hold me to that.

 

[sea2summit]

How well does the Predatobr return to zero?

I think Mark says within 1/2 MOA, I've never noticed any shift but I've also never tested it. I'll tell you what I'll try and run a test before Saturday, say a three shot group then disassemble/reassemble between each shot for a second three shot group work?

 

[RyanScott]

Sounds good.

 

[ForgeValley]

Well, the OPs primary requirement was robustness, and as far as I know, that comes with some weight penalty right now. So in the context of his post, 'smart' weight = 'more' weight. And apologies if I came across as an ass, I just got so tired of listening to the weight thing. As an NCO I heard it constantly, but would could I do? Everyone had to hump it.

 

[RyanScott]

I don’t believe the MWS is more robust than the SR-25, and the others on the market trail them in robustness due to the small parts.

 

[sea2summit]

Well, the OPs primary requirement was robustness, and as far as I know, that comes with some weight penalty right now. So in the context of his post, 'smart' weight = 'more' weight. And apologies if I came across as an ass, I just got so tired of listening to the weight thing. As an NCO I heard it constantly, but would could I do? Everyone had to hump it.

In fairness he didn't throw up light guns as choices, someone else brought up the S&W which is probably the lightest. I don't know what the difference between the tOBR and MWS is weight wise but if it is truly 1.5# that's roughly 15% more weight so is it 15% more robust? Not sure how to quantify that within the limits of a rifle that has an aluminum tube supporting the but stock connected by two push pins to a separate piece of aluminum holding the barrel. I wouldn't hesitate to buttstroke someone or use it as an improvised ladder...once, beyond that I think you start to accept risk in the platform.

ETA: My OBR is absolutely more robust than the tOBR but it's sitting right at 20#s with PRS stock etc, it's been to the woods but it's not pleasant to take far from the truck...and I try not to be a wussy.

 

[nn8734]

I brought up the SW MP10 as a throw in...

there are a lot of these threads (ie the best z,y,z) but a vast majority of the time, the OP doesn’t define requirements sufficiently so we often go off of incomplete info when responding...Information pertaining to specific usage pattern, budgetary constraints, specific, measurable empirical requirements pertaining to weight, portability, level of precision, desired max effective range, resale value retention, aftermarket support, etc. for example...

Not specifically calling out the OP of this thread but instead wondering if there is an opportunity for us standardize the framing of these inquiries with a set of guidelines get promote the best quality of advice....Keep it as a sticky so anyone contemplating a similar decision knows what to provide, can copy/paste and fill in the blanks so responders can provide the most relevant, valuable info quickly and efficiently.

Just an idea as I’m sure this won’t be the last question along these lines.

 

[Docsherm]

All of the above. Once they have your money they don’t give 2 shits about you.

Funny, never had an issue. Maybe they just don't like you. ......

 

[ForgeValley]

I don’t believe the MWS is more robust than the SR-25, and the others on the market trail them in robustness due to the small parts.

I don't think you can go wrong with KAC or LMT if you are looking for robust. I've never owned a KAC (it's on the short list) but I can tell you the MWS with the monolithic rail gives me the warm fuzzies everytime pick it up.

 

[bantaman2]

I brought up the SW MP10 as a throw in...

there are a lot of these threads (ie the best z,y,z) but a vast majority of the time, the OP doesn’t define requirements sufficiently so we often go off of incomplete info when responding...Information pertaining to specific usage pattern, budgetary constraints, specific, measurable empirical requirements pertaining to weight, portability, level of precision, desired max effective range, resale value retention, aftermarket support, etc. for example...

Not specifically calling out the OP of this thread but instead wondering if there is an opportunity for us standardize the framing of these inquiries with a set of guidelines get promote the best quality of advice....Keep it as a sticky so anyone contemplating a similar decision knows what to provide, can copy/paste and fill in the blanks so responders can provide the most relevant, valuable info quickly and efficiently.

Just an idea as I’m sure this won’t be the last question along these lines.

Good Point, let me try to refine some details:

-PRICE: around 2500
-max estimated range: 800
-accuracy requirement: sub MOA
-Weight: would prefer lighter, but I understand that sometimes shit is just heavy
-Primary use: Shooting steel, with double duty as a coyote gun. Will be hiked around the woods/ mountains
-Caliber: .308 because I already have about 1000 match grade rounds and 8 SR25 mags
-Random shit: I don't baby my rifles, and I don't clean them nearly as much as I should. They will get beat up and scuffed up with use. I want the gun to deal with a reasonable amount of abuse and not have any issues with being dirty. I would also like an adjustable gas block (if that is a thing on these factory rifles) because it will be ran suppressed. I also want it to look sweet... The predatOBR looks amazing, and of course JPs look great too. IDK how sold I am on the MWS looks wise, but for the right price, anything looks pretty.

I know this may just confuse people, or just make them frustrated, but I would like to see what peoples opinions are on the subject.

 

[_Windrider_]

Funny, never had an issue. Maybe they just don't like you. ......

Well it’s mutual.

 

[ForgeValley]

Well, if we are talking sweet looks:

LMT
KAC
OBR
JP

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so no help there.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Good Point, let me try to refine some details:

-PRICE: around 2500
-max estimated range: 800
-accuracy requirement: sub MOA
-Weight: would prefer lighter, but I understand that sometimes shit is just heavy
-Primary use: Shooting steel, with double duty as a coyote gun. Will be hiked around the woods/ mountains
-Caliber: .308 because I already have about 1000 match grade rounds and 8 SR25 mags
-Random shit: I don't baby my rifles, and I don't clean them nearly as much as I should. They will get beat up and scuffed up with use. I want the gun to deal with a reasonable amount of abuse and not have any issues with being dirty. I would also like an adjustable gas block (if that is a thing on these factory rifles) because it will be ran suppressed. I also want it to look sweet... The predatOBR looks amazing, and of course JPs look great too. IDK how sold I am on the MWS looks wise, but for the right price, anything looks pretty.

I know this may just confuse people, or just make them frustrated, but I would like to see what peoples opinions are on the subject.

You can snag an OBR, POBR, or LMT MWS around that price in the PX. As the below poster stated, it doesn't have the ADJ block but I did want to just mention that they can be found under what was previously posted above.

 

[RyanScott]

Neither the MWS nor the SR-25 will have adjustable blocks. The difference is the MWS is over gassed. Easy fix just buy a longer barrel and cut it back. The SR-25 will be set up to run suppressed and unsuppressed with their suppressors, which are designed for low backpressure.

 

[TangoSierra916]

Good Point, let me try to refine some details:

-PRICE: around 2500
-max estimated range: 800
-accuracy requirement: sub MOA
-Weight: would prefer lighter, but I understand that sometimes shit is just heavy
-Primary use: Shooting steel, with double duty as a coyote gun. Will be hiked around the woods/ mountains
-Caliber: .308 because I already have about 1000 match grade rounds and 8 SR25 mags
-Random shit: I don't baby my rifles, and I don't clean them nearly as much as I should. They will get beat up and scuffed up with use. I want the gun to deal with a reasonable amount of abuse and not have any issues with being dirty. I would also like an adjustable gas block (if that is a thing on these factory rifles) because it will be ran suppressed. I also want it to look sweet... The predatOBR looks amazing, and of course JPs look great too. IDK how sold I am on the MWS looks wise, but for the right price, anything looks pretty.

I know this may just confuse people, or just make them frustrated, but I would like to see what peoples opinions are on the subject.

Uh Looks wise Im pretty sure the LMT with quad rails is the best thing since sliced bread.

My experience with LMT has been sub-moa, no issues running 16-20" 7.62 barrels suppressed (with all factory LMT parts) and I love the quad rail look. May be just me but I love the cheese grater look and feel.

with the $2500 budget you've got a good amount of options. One note on the weight if you go "lighter" are you okay with potentially more felt recoil? You probably thought about that already but just one consideration as you drop weight.

 

[shax2lex]

Seekins. I like that it’s Ambi.

 

[Jsp556]

I went with LMT over KAC solely due to the fact that it is end user serviceable. I had an OBR when Larue used LW barrels. It lived up to the accuracy hype but reliability was shit and so was Larue’s customer service.

 

[nn8734]

KAC rifles are no fun when trying to self serve. Had to spend prob over 1k over the years buying all the tooling to work on mine myself.

For $2500, an LMT MWS would be a good choice, excepting for possibly the weight penalty you pay with them...other than that, they check all the right boxes.

 

[Zorrosdens]

Here is a PDF of some of the part’s weight differences for this year I believe, hope it helps.

https://lmtdefense.com/media/2018/11/MWS-Spec-Sheet.pdf

Here’s mine (still no glass yet??? so sad) quad w/heavy chrome 16” fwiw.

It was ordered as their Combat Rifle usually supplied with light weight chrome 16”, I spec’d the heavy instead.

 

[Darqusoull13]

@bantaman2 based on the criteria of wanting to shoot suppressed and not, wanting the adjustable gas block to the the rifle and needing something as robust as it is accurate I'd go with the JP 308 in the Large Frame Top Charge (LTC Series) format. 308's are super easy to tune to run with or without a can and with the right buffer you can really drop the recoil impulse down.

If you're ok with waiting a couple weeks on or around a holiday involving turkey and football I think you will find something that also fits your budget.

 

[mrtoyz]

Surprised Seekins SP10 wasn’t mentioned more. Fits all your needs and is as accurate as it gets in that platform.

 

[pmclaine]

MWS is awesome.

My only issue with it is losing the "plug and play" feature of being an AR.

Sure barrel changes/maintenance are as easy as can be as long as you have the proprietary MWS extension.

So you are limited to LMT barrels - which tend to be spendy - or scrapping a barrel and having one of the few smiths that do it fit your choice of barrel with the MWS extension.

My 16 inch CL shoots fine but I want to someday fit a premium barrel and it wont be an easy change such as I could do on my own with a DPMS pattern rifle.