Dedicated subsonic bolt gun

[axpilot]

So I am fully prepared to be flamed for this, but here I go..... I'm wanting to build a bolt gun, subsonic only- with suppressor, for use out to 150-200 yds. Eventually this will get topped with a thermal optic and used for "critter" control around the house (10ac). I had been planning on ruger ranch in 300 blk, but the 8.6 has my attention. I already have a silencerco Hybrid. Idealy this would bring down whitetail sized game, but I know thats a stretch. What other calibers should I be looking at? Anybody with real world 8.6 performance? It almost seems too good to be true.

Thanks
Jake

 

[7mmShooter]

450 Bushmaster would be another option if your hybrid would work with it

 

[axpilot]

should be fine....I shoot it on my 45/70 lol

 

[7mmShooter]

should be fine....I shoot it on my 45/70 lol

Yeah you’ll be fine then

 

[zeroz]

In my opinion those distances are pushing it for ethical subsonic kills on deer. I keep subsonic kills sub 100 but that's just me. Ive had good luck with the 300 blk shooting 190 sub-x on pigs under 100.

 

[dirtybores]

I'm awaiting a barrel to do the same. Just going with 308, 1:8, 14.5" and pin/weld a suppressor adapter. Cheap reloading components and potent enough for hogs, which I can walk right up on at night. I think its justified enough to warrant a whole dedicated setup.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Subs and game are not a good mixture, especially in 300BLK. I never lost animals until I shot them with 300BLK subs. There's just nothing that can be done to make a 30 cal bullet expand reliably at those speeds. I've even had groundhogs make it back to the holes with multiple hits from the hornady and lehigh "expanding" subs. Simply put they all suck.

22LR is where it's at for fun quiet shooting. Buy an Anschutz, CZ, RimX, Voodoo, etc and have fun. With hollow points it will take down varmints no problem, bigger than that use an appropriate high velocity centerfire rifle.

 

[zeroz]

Subs and game are not a good mixture, especially in 300BLK. I never lost animals until I shot them with 300BLK subs. There's just nothing that can be done to make a 30 cal bullet expand reliably at those speeds. I've even had groundhogs make it back to the holes with multiple hits from the hornady and lehigh "expanding" subs. Simply put they all suck.

22LR is where it's at for fun quiet shooting. Buy an Anschutz, CZ, RimX, Voodoo, etc and have fun. With hollow points it will take down varmints no problem, bigger than that use an appropriate high velocity centerfire rifle.

He's not wrong. The 190 sub x in the brainpan of piggies works fine but it gets dicey the further out you push it and you really arent counting on the expansion. Plenty of .22LR did the same work, though it became more consistent with the 190's.

 

[cas6969]

There's just nothing that can be done to make a 30 cal bullet expand reliably at those speeds.

I didn't think you were supposed to, I thought the idea was tumbling?

I'm sure no expert, I've only see two deer shot with them as "finishers", they were already on the ground, but uncertain if they'd stay there. 220gr SMK, icepick looking hole going in, then went sideways making a wound channel that looked like someone stabbed them with a broad sword.
How consistent/reliable that result is I couldn't say.

This of course was in the late 90's, early 00's before "fracturing" copper bullets were readily available.

 

[7mmShooter]

Something like a Maker Rex sub or Discreet Ballistics would work better but they’re not cheap

 

[Crossbow Hunter]

Something like a Maker Rex sub or Discreet Ballistics would work better but they’re not cheap

You beat me to suggesting the Maker bullets.

 

[axpilot]

I agree on the range and 300blk....honestly 99% of shots would be well under 100yds. My hesitation with the 300 is what got me so interested in the 8.6.....I started "planning" this project over a year ago and just cant pull the trigger. I know I mentioned deer, but its most likely to be used on coyotes in my chickens, armadillos, ect.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Probably because you already know it’s not going to work well and will be a waste of time and money. 9mm with 147gr HST’s or gold dots would be far more effective since they’ll actually expand. Still not what I’d shoot deer with if I had the choice but they do work.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I didn't think you were supposed to, I thought the idea was tumbling?

I'm sure no expert, I've only see two deer shot with them as "finishers", they were already on the ground, but uncertain if they'd stay there. 220gr SMK, icepick looking hole going in, then went sideways making a wound channel that looked like someone stabbed them with a broad sword.
How consistent/reliable that result is I couldn't say.

This of course was in the late 90's, early 00's before "fracturing" copper bullets were readily available.

Tumbling bullets do not kill ethically.

 

[FuhQ]

So I am fully prepared to be flamed for this, but here I go..... I'm wanting to build a bolt gun, subsonic only- with suppressor, for use out to 150-200 yds. Eventually this will get topped with a thermal optic and used for "critter" control around the house (10ac). I had been planning on ruger ranch in 300 blk, but the 8.6 has my attention. I already have a silencerco Hybrid. Idealy this would bring down whitetail sized game, but I know thats a stretch. What other calibers should I be looking at? Anybody with real world 8.6 performance? It almost seems too good to be true.

Thanks
Jake

For inside of 200 yards, the Ruger Ranch .300 BLK will do just fine with Berger/Nosler 210 handloads.

 

[cas6969]

Tumbling bullets do not kill ethically.

Interesting.

Did you make that up yourself?

Wouldn’t want a coyote filing a formal grievance with PETA.

 

[spife7980]

Interesting.

Did you make that up yourself?

Wouldn’t want a coyote filing a formal grievance with PETA.

If it can tumble it means it’s not going fast enough to do real damage.

Hunting with subsonic sucks dick.

 

[axpilot]

I think I'm going to end up trying the 8.6. I can always throw a side charge selectable gas block ar upper on a rifle and give that a try too.

 

[Potsy]

Big flat nosed bullets (think .45 coated hard cast, in a suppressor) will hurt things, break stuff, and dig a straight line deeeep, turning bone into shrapnel along the way. It will do all this at WELL under the speed of sound.

The concept is only 150 years old, and as sexy as a 75 year old Amish woman, but anyone who tries it is shocked by the reliability. Pointy .30 jacketed stuff subsonic….not so much…..

 

[REDfletching]

So I am fully prepared to be flamed for this, but here I go..... I'm wanting to build a bolt gun, subsonic only- with suppressor, for use out to 150-200 yds. Eventually this will get topped with a thermal optic and used for "critter" control around the house (10ac). I had been planning on ruger ranch in 300 blk, but the 8.6 has my attention. I already have a silencerco Hybrid. Idealy this would bring down whitetail sized game, but I know thats a stretch. What other calibers should I be looking at? Anybody with real world 8.6 performance? It almost seems too good to be true.

Thanks
Jake

I am currently getting 0.8 MOA groups out of my REM 700 SPS Tactical chambered in 300BLK, using Federal American Eagle Suppressor, 220gr subsonic. Extremely satisfied considering all the shit reviews that rifle got. Glad I didn't listen to the self professed experts. Using an SWFA scope 10x42 fixed power old school mil dot reticle. In my neck of the woods in the Blue Ridge Mountains 300 yards would be a very long shot. And theres plenty of terminal energy ft-lbs in that round to penetrate a “pumpkin” for instance.

 

[Just Macca]

I’m about to pick up a Henry Big Boy X in .44 RM. next plan will be to get a NOE 400gr bullet cast. The 1-20” twist of the Henry will stablise them and a hard cast 390-400gr hollow point will do well at 1000FPS.

 

[SmileMaker]

Not quite what you were looking for but viable option.

 

[AMMOWASTER]

450 Bushmaster would be another option if your hybrid would work with it

Seems like a pretty good option if he already has the 45 rifle rated can. Hornady Sub X ammo available and not expensive.

 

[Potsy]

If I had a .45 suppressor, a Ruger .450 Bushmaster would seem to be the easy button.
There’s even sub data on Hogdon’s website for sub-x jacketed (I’d take a little poetic license and run cast).

 

[CMP70306]

should be fine....I shoot it on my 45/70 lol

If you already have a .45-70 with muzzle threads then pick up some 410gr Sub X and call it a day. They are already 45 cal and the 410 is designed for max expansion compared to the 190gr sub X which is designed to meet the FBI barrier requirements.

 

[45-90]

I have the 8.6 and was not happy with it after shooting it over a year, the 3 twist is more of a problem then helpful, and has serious limitations with lead bullets. Plus bad torn rifling in my early 3 twist. I have ordered a 6.5 twist and a reamer to make a better more versatile cartridge. Also building a 510 whisper on the 338 Lapua Mag case, a 10 twist .510 barrel will stablize 1002 gr bullets on a Remington 700 LA, just purchased yesterday.
The 16 twist 450 bushmaster will stablize 500 gr bullets in sub mode out of AR 15 or the 390 gr Hornaday sub bullet, and functions great.
The 3 twist 8.6 Blk functions subs pretty out of the AR 10 with 300 gr Sierra or Berger once tuned, and has very soft recoil, but the twist is too fast for best accuracy, and is limited to 900 to 1000 fps max for muzzle devices, on the lead 300 gr match bullets, as the bullets can and will blow up inside the muzzle device destroying it, sending metal shrapnel everywhere. So I haven't given up on it yet and ordered a 6.5 twist barrel.
The 510 whisper brings alot of energy at sub speeds and barely slows with down over longer ranged with the 750 Amax, and copper bullets 800 to over 1000 grs. Or even a bit of armor penetration with the APITs in the barrel.

 

[264win]

Building a dedicated sub rifle has been on my to list for a while as well.

Im curious if anyone has explored the idea of running muzzle loader bullets out of a dedicated barrel.
below is a picture of a .45 cal Barnes from my bull elk this year. Impact velocity was around 1200 fps and the terminal performance was impressive.

 

[AMMOWASTER]

Building a dedicated sub rifle has been on my to list for a while as well.

Im curious if anyone has explored the idea of running muzzle loader bullets out of a dedicated barrel.
below is a picture of a .45 cal Barnes from my bull elk this year. Impact velocity was around 1200 fps and the terminal performance was impressive.

It's been done but it's not common. A lot of them are pretty spendy.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Interesting.

Did you make that up yourself?

Wouldn’t want a coyote filing a formal grievance with PETA.

You’re an idiot.

 

[45-90]

R to L here is the 8.6 Blackout, 450 Bushmaster with 500 gr jacketed S P, and two .510 cartridges on 300 RUM and 338 Lapua...I decided on the 338 Lapua brass with the 750 Amax, everything is ordered including chamber reamers and two barrels, one is just a replacement for the 8.6, 3 twist, going to a 6.5 twist.

 

[steve101610]

350 legend is a great option. Get a 10 twist barrel and shoot the maker 280gr sub bullets. The 10 twist also shoots supers very good too.

 

[XP1K]

If I already had a 45-70 and a 45cal hybrid I would load 400gr hard cast and call it a day.

I've actually been thinking about the venerable 30-30 for a dedicated sub gun. If I can ever find a decent used rifle for sane money. Damn tactical lever gun craze. Lever gun would be just as quite as a bolt gun, quicker follow ups for multiple targets. Shoot the old ugly 200gr round nose bullets.

I know a guy from Mississippi that hunts with a ruger ranch in 300blk. Dedicated sub gun. Shoots the Lehigh bullets. Keeping shots at 50-80 yards he gets complete pass through and 1½-2" exit holes. Hasn't lost a deer yet, swears they are either drt (neck shots) or they never make it more than 50 yards.

He sent me pics of the entries/exits but that's been a while back. Doubt I still have them.

 

[Potsy]

I’ve thought (though I’ll never spend the money), that a Henry single shot cut to 16” would be SHORT and HANDY even with a can. Slow to reload, and not tactically sexy, but still short and handy.

Even thought about a Henry in .308 (super) to work with my current can.

Ruger #1’s would be even better, but you’re into quite a bit more money (and I’m not chopping mine!)

Henry 450BM’s and .45-70’s are slower twisted than Ruger Americans.

 

[CMP70306]

So turns out that 12.5gr of trailboss sends a 208gr BTHP out around 1000 fps in a 30-06. I would provide exact speeds but with the Nomad L it is quiet enough that it doesn’t trigger the Labradar even with the external microphone.

 

[45-90]

I’ve thought (though I’ll never spend the money), that a Henry single shot cut to 16” would be SHORT and HANDY even with a can. Slow to reload, and not tactically sexy, but still short and handy.

Even thought about a Henry in .308 (super) to work with my current can.

Ruger #1’s would be even better, but you’re into quite a bit more money (and I’m not chopping mine!)

Henry 450BM’s and .45-70’s are slower twisted than Ruger Americans.

The Faxon 450 Bushmaster barrel has a 1-16 twist which is the same as the Ruger and handles "resized" .458 bullets in the 500 gr jacketed and 502 gr cast, and cycles well with either light .452 pistol bullets supers or heavy resized subs.

 

[JDBhunting365]

 

[JDBhunting365]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/761450699011112/?ref=share&mibextid=S66gvF

 

[tekmann2377]

Bigger is better. You need frontal area and a blunt/flat (or hollow) point and good sectional density. This worked well enough for buffalo hunters shooting 500 gr 45 cal bullets out of a Sharps at 1200 fps. This also means that there is a decent sized hole for a blood trail as well as enough penetration to always achieve a pass through.

Even something like this doesn't have anywhere near the emphatic killing power of a modern expanding bullet at good velocity.

Fancy expanding bullets and smaller calibers just aren't going to be as reliable no matter what.

 

[JDBhunting365]

Meh. I contacted Ron a couple of months ago about getting a bolt action barrel chambered. We emailed back and forth a couple times but he was never really able to clarify or confirm if he had the ability to chamber barrels, could provide a reamer, knew anybody that could do it, etc. I ended up just doing a 338 Spectre and buying Spectre brass from SBR Munitions. The Razorback is a neat idea but it's barely a wildcat. If the guy that invented it can't assist someone with finding a reamer or chambering a barrel, good luck.

 

[RTH1800]

I get these inquires often. Many come from folks just like the OP. "I have 10 acres and want a dedicated SS rifle for 'critters' and possibly deer....." "Planning on moving to thermal.."
The first thing I think is that most people who have 10 acres have a lot of 10 acre neighbors. So, you want to launch 200-350 grain projectiles around at night among your neighbors houses, kids, livestock..?

I do not think many are getting permits to shoot deer with SS at night. I know a few are but not nearly so many as want or get these set ups.

 

[FuhQ]

I do not think many are getting permits to shoot deer with SS at night. I know a few are but not nearly so many as want or get these set ups.

 

[JDBhunting365]

 

[RTH1800]

View attachment 8288382

No, not at all thought your response is completely predictable. A person does not need to be in law enforcement to not think people should not be launching heavy bullets around in the dark in a populated areas. Nor to think that wildlife laws should be followed.

I am fairly certain that this will be an unpopular here but facts are facts. SS bullets are notoriously unstable in most rifles and often change direction to a high degree.

I am also fairly certain that every 10 acre yard owner will claim to be the only person within miles of where he lives. That is not were I see 10 acre yards. The ones I see are stacked one upon the other with each having a sewage lagoon as close to his neighbors house as possible. Yet his neighbor on the other side has his sewage lagoon next to his house so it all equals out.

 

[st1650]

I get these inquires often. Many come from folks just like the OP. "I have 10 acres and want a dedicated SS rifle for 'critters' and possibly deer....." "Planning on moving to thermal.."
The first thing I think is that most people who have 10 acres have a lot of 10 acre neighbors. So, you want to launch 200-350 grain projectiles around at night among your neighbors houses, kids, livestock..?

I do not think many are getting permits to shoot deer with SS at night. I know a few are but not nearly so many as want or get these set ups.

I've shot a coyote with 395gr subx out my 450bm.

 

[FuhQ]

No, not at all thought your response is completely predictable. A person does not need to be in law enforcement to not think people should not be launching heavy bullets around in the dark in a populated areas. Nor to think that wildlife laws should be followed.

I am fairly certain that this will be an unpopular here but facts are facts. SS bullets are notoriously unstable in most rifles and often change direction to a high degree.

I am also fairly certain that every 10 acre yard owner will claim to be the only person within miles of where he lives. That is not were I see 10 acre yards. The ones I see are stacked one upon the other with each having a sewage lagoon as close to his neighbors house as possible. Yet his neighbor on the other side has his sewage lagoon next to his house so it all equals out.

Christ, it was a joke. I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties.

 

[RTH1800]

I've shot a coyote with 395gr subx out my 450bm.

Very cool. I am all for it so long as safe.

 

[JDBhunting365]

 

[JDBhunting365]

Good for him. Guess someone was able to get a barrel from Ron. Meanwhile Spectre reamers, dies, and brass can be bought or rented today. Essentially the same cartridge. 8gr of Lil Gun fills up the Spectre case capacity.

You don't have to paste a bunch of FB screenshots. I'm a member of that group

Just starting to do some load development with the 338 Spectre. All data is with new brass & CCI primers, neck tension sort of felt like it was all over the place so that might explain a few of the odd numbers. Velocities match quickload when I increase case capacity to 29.4gr H2O.

Not enough data for a consensus on anything yet, I'm just posting posting raw data so that anyone else who starts working on load can have it to reference. This first run was just a spread of powder weights to give me something to compare to QL and have a starting point.

9" barrel w/ 9mm suppressor
Hornady 200gr SST
Reloader 17
2.088 COAL
82*, 850' ASL.


13.5gr - 1023fps
13.5gr - 1032fps
13.5gr - 1020fps
14.0gr - 1061fps
14.0gr - 1090fps
14.0gr - 1079fps
14.5gr - 1102fps
14.5gr - 1105fps
14.5gr - 1130fps
15.0gr - 1162fps
15.0gr - 1167fps
15.0gr - 1173fps
15.5gr - 1225fps
15.5gr - 1218fps
15.5gr - 1206fps
16.0gr - 1250fps
16.0gr - 1242fps
16.0gr - 1268fps
16.5gr - 1303fps
16.5gr - 1297fps
16.5gr - 1311fps

Comparing to QL, it looks like I could go as high as 17.5gr before I start getting close to 35kpsi pressures that I want to limit thing to as a max. QL claims just over 100% fill at 17.5 but it always seems to overestimate so we'll see how much I can cram in there next time.

 

[st1650]

I'd do a 338BR before I'd do a 338 razor back if I was building a dedicated sub bolt gun.

 

[st1650]

Why?

Standard 308win bolt face.
Easier (for me) to make brass
Better case fill, can use a faster burning powder such as N32c for a full case which means tigher SD/ES and quieter, cleaner burn. (This is debatable but in my experience I've had better luck with long range subs with Trailboss, Tinstar than with H110)
Most likely would feed better.
That's just my opinion, with what works for me.