Insite is a great choice for a dealer.
DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
Not a dumb question at all and someone else asked the same question last night. DeLane is my middle name and has a family history.
MB
Jamaican bossman to Mike B:
“Stay in de lane, DeLane.“
that is an achingly bad dad joke
initiate hari-kari now for atonement
Yessir, for bread and butter parts, but not likely for small parts unless the cost accounting says it makes sense.
MB
Dude, you gotta lay off the day drinking….we talked about this.Jamaican bossman to Mike B:
“Stay in de lane, DeLane.“
that is an achingly bad dad joke
initiate hari-kari now for atonement
MB
Yessir, there's a plan, and it looks different than what has become the conventional approach.
MB
@RAVAGE88 would it be possible to keep the first post updated with current and recommended contact / shopping methods? Ie email, PM, eventual FB page or merchant site, etc?
And of course a heart felt thank you for carrying the torch, and for whatever you're working on next. I just got my first Vudoo, so entering this space at this time ended up being a bit anxious for a minute.
And of course a heart felt thank you for carrying the torch, and for whatever you're working on next. I just got my first Vudoo, so entering this space at this time ended up being a bit anxious for a minute.
Absolutely. I'll do regular update posts here and the more that's happening the more updates there will be. I'll be available to answer questions on FB, but I don't want to deal with the blue state personalities if the jargon borders on doing business, so no detailed info over there. The best way for me to keep everything organized is via email since I can create files. I thought PMs may be a good tool, but the response to my announcement has been far greater than I thought, which I have you guys to thank for that.
Initially, when inventory is spooled up, ordering will be via the newest of the old school methods. Send me an email with what you're looking for (I have lots of these already), I'll generate an invoice via QuickBooks which will automatically be spit out via email. Open your email, view the invoice for accuracy, click the link to pay, I'll ship and you stand by the mailbox....rinse and repeat. As I continue, there will be a website with a cart and the process will be streamlined, but this will be later down the road. I'll be a one-man op for quite a while, which is just fine with me.
Today has been an administrative day to generate a new NDA, create a logo, finalize some remaining email structure, early coordination with getting a clearing house set up for the Aussie's (I owe them a parts list/other info) and I'll be talking to Insite as soon as I know the answers to the questions I know that Andy will ask. So, I'm moving faster than Trump, managing comms, and parts will be flowing soon. Then, it's back in SolidWorks to work on the new stuff.
As always, any questions, reach out via PM if it doesn't pertain to an order, or email me.
MB
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I agree with keeping them seperate. Two actions designed for completely different purposes.
@RAVAGE88
This was asked by a member over on Rimfire Central.
"Just to be clear, the parts supply will include the V22s? I love my single shot Vudoo, it is my metallic silhouette rifle, and I am hoping to pick up spare parts like extractors/ejectors/ bolt release/ firing pin and springs. I understand that Mike just announced this so I will give it a couple of weeks but I wanted to ask about V22s parts being included."
This was asked by a member over on Rimfire Central.
"Just to be clear, the parts supply will include the V22s? I love my single shot Vudoo, it is my metallic silhouette rifle, and I am hoping to pick up spare parts like extractors/ejectors/ bolt release/ firing pin and springs. I understand that Mike just announced this so I will give it a couple of weeks but I wanted to ask about V22s parts being included."
I finally decided how to handle the V-22S thread and renamed it so everyone knows I'm supporting the single shot actions as well.
MB
Glad you are bringing the info to the guys who are too scared to come to the Hide. lol
Haha. That thread has had the title changed and a bunch of posts deleted.
In all of my work with designing magazines (a task I would not wish upon my own enemy), I have come to realize that many of the problems often associated with the magazine are actually an issue with the geometry and tension of the extractor and tensioner. The magazine has to have enough spring force to overcome the tensioner and extractor to place the cartridge into the bolt face faster than the bolt can pass it by. I have found a lot variation from action to action in the amount of magazine spring pressure needed to accomplish the task.
Last thing first: What issue(s) are you having?
The 15-round mags amplify "sensitivities" found in the 10-rounders:
- The magazine MUST!! be held at the correct height in your chassis or stock.
My 2019-vintage rifle is in an MPA BA Comp chassis. When it first came from Vudoo, the non-adjustable mag latch allowed about 3/16" or so of vertical play. This was enough to cause feed failures, especially with the last round or two in my 10-round polymer mags. @RAVAGE88 identified the issue immediately upon seeing it. The end result was my receiving an adjustable latch from MPA; as I understand it, that latch is now standard on the BA Comp chassis.
More broadly, consider the gigantic challenge of stripping a rimmed cartridge with a butter soft bullet off an under-tension stack of cartridges and feeding it into a chamber only a few thousandths of an inch larger in diameter than the bullet, without that bullet suffering scrapes or dents on the way in. Then add the manufacturing tolerances of the plethora of R700 stocks and chassis. It's actually pretty incredible that Vudoos work as well as they do.
- The mags, ESPECIALLY the 15-rounders, MUST be loaded correctly.
Look at the cartridge column in my post's photo (included again here) - notice the alternating pattern of the stack. This is accomplished by pressing the follower button down just enough to slide a round under the feed lips, then release the button. The bullet nose should orient itself just above the front of the mag as shown. If the round is "flat" - not angled as shown and the bullet nose points straight at the front wall of the mag - it's wrong; fix it by tapping the base of the mag gently and/or use a fingernail to pull back and down on the cartridge rim; it should pop into position.
Even if each round is loaded correctly, you may notice two bullet noses on the same side of the mag - no alternation. If you leave that uncorrected, a stoppage is almost guaranteed when the bolt tries to feed that slightly misaligned round.
The 10-round mags have the same requirement; it's just that the column doesn't show the pattern as clearly.
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Another too early request and I am sure all will be made clear later. But if you are taking requests, please make the action and trigger Remington 700 form factor compatible If at all possibly. Lots and lots of chassis and triggers out there that a barreled action would be ready to fit into. If not, that’s life.
Reason I even ask is because you were talking about special triggers and such earlier in the thread. While exciting, it also means we can not pre buy or clear out anything we have in anticipation. “Ooh a sale on X triggers that I really was hoping to use is on. I can buy it now and wait”. Or chassis, or, or. We just have to sit on our hands till Christmas comes. Oh well.
I can 100% agree with must be loaded correctly. My Gen1 Vudoo feeds from the metal magazines like butter. I have 2- 10's, 3- 12's and a 15. The 15 is the only one that gives me a little issue from time to time on round 14 & 15. I have ordered a couple of longer mag springs from Hoz n' Shield. This should solve that 100%.
@RAVAGE88 I appreciate all the updates and you diving in head first to the rabbit hole you probably never left!! I can not wait to see what comes out in the end. I am a sucker for a QUALITY 22lr repeater action 700 Footprint. 40X Mafia Flash Backs!!
@RAVAGE88 I appreciate all the updates and you diving in head first to the rabbit hole you probably never left!! I can not wait to see what comes out in the end. I am a sucker for a QUALITY 22lr repeater action 700 Footprint. 40X Mafia Flash Backs!!
This is a good topic and there's some things to share that I believe everyone can get something out of.
First, back in the 2008 to 2010 timeframe as the original thoughts and initial designs were coming together for an AICS form factor rimfire magazine, THE chassis standard for centerfire was the Accuracy International AICS chassis (for the Rem700 platform) that, of course, used the AICS magazine. There were no other considerable chassis systems or magazines.
So, the original Accuracy International prints were used for the proper physical dimensioning of the magazine receptacle and the physical envelope of the magazine. Of course there was no adjustable latch in the chassis or adjustable catch on the magazine housing. So, it goes without say that because a standard was used, none of these things were used in my magazine housing design or my DBM and there were no feed issues, shaving lead and so forth.
Things move along and the "system" was happy. Then, XLR enters the scene and guess what? Feed issues. Why? Because there was no common "standard" employed and the mag latch was a different dimension than the Accuracy International mag latch. And this problem manifested from there every time another chassis or DBM hit the market.
So, with the permission of Accuracy International, I started contacting the other chassis makers and offering up the actual information that would eliminate the ripple of issues that propagated further across the community each time a new chassis (or DBM) was introduced. The DBM I benchmarked was the Badger Ordnance M5 because Marty hit it out of the park, but he also had a relationship with Accuracy International and has been at this game longer than most.
Sadly, not all the makers were receptive, which is fine, but I'll say that Phil Cashin was the best at having the conversation and responding with a solution that set the stage. I love his chassis systems.
So, when one wonders why there's a need for an adjustable catch or latch, now you know. As I've said before, the mindset associated with copying is different than the mindset used to create (Phil creates). And I want to be clear, there's A LOT of good product out there from A LOT of good sources and I'm not poo pooing anything. Just sharing a perspective that may turn on a few light bulbs....
MB
I'd rather a design with no compromises. 700 triggers and chassis are plentiful but it hasn't stopped people from buying Annies, CZs, AIs, etc. If he's going for innovation don't hamstring it by shoving it into a limiting box right off the bat. The 700 platform was not originally designed as a .22lr and the 40x was only made as a "1:1" trainer for their centerfire rifles. There are other companies that produce and will be releasing 700 based actions.
Thanks for saying this, as it lays in perfectly with the vision going forward. Believe me, I get the Rem700 compatibility stuff for rimfire, and I won't abandon it, but the form factor is incredibly constraining to what it means to doing something much better.
The Rem700 was designed to be a cheaper alternative to the far superior Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 and was intro'd with the 7mm Rem Mag to create a diminutive appearance to the 264 Winchester Magnum. It wasn't designed and intro'd because it was better, but cheaper.
MB
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Understand the need to innovate and agree. Just means that we really do sit on our hands and wallet until everything is real. My wallet approves. My build money can earn interest while I fidget. Now if I can only keep it properly separate from the wife’s shoe budget.
Ok how about a request to make it as ammo agnostic as possible?
Cheaper, meaning it was easier to manufacture is quantity?
There’s three lesson’s in this statement.
First, though not really related, it’s never good to bring an old person into the conversation who lived the times when the event discussed was actually happening. You should be saying to ole Dead Eye, Shut up and sit down
Second, don’t sell what you like or you think is best, sell what the customer wants. In 1962 the perfect storm (for Remington) occurred. It’s the early 1960’s. Roy Weatherby has taken the world of firearms by storm. People wanted glitz, pretty, fancy. And here comes Winchester, plain wood, plain finish, simple action, construction that whether it occurred or not excluded Cheapness. They abandoned their core customers and went inexpensive but it looked cheap. Remington, put high gloss finish, butter smooth actions, really decent wood for the cost of the rifle and coated that wood for a 1960’s appreciative crowd with a finish that shined so brightly it blinded game. People flocked to the new 7mm with the shinny finish that emphasized nicely grained wood and actions whether inexpensive to make or not, flowed like melted butter. (Don’t belive me, come try Brenda’s 1975, old style BDL in 243. And that rifle can’t even compare to the first year XP100 we once owned.).
Third. This is my question. Despite its ease of manufacture, why has the 700 style action become the standard of accurate rifles? Why people shun the Mauser/Winchester CRF action when wanting a very accurate rifle? Yet I know that a CRF action can be accurate. My Ruger Model 77MKII in .35 Whelen can put all three shots in a cloverleaf with every shot touching. It’s nothing more than a hunting rifle. But still, throw out a question about using any of the big three CRF actions, (Mauser 98, Pre 64 Winchester, or late model Ruger) for Precision rifle or F Class and one will be kindly guided to a more common (R700 footprint) action.
So, for better or worse, despite its faults, the customer base is built on round bottom R700 style actions. Easy to make and as we all found out in the late 1990’s early 2000’s easy for the core company (remington) to muck up.
Call it cherry picked but who really wants to spend all day behind a full house .35 Whelen shooting ought-to-get-em powered loads trying to prove a point.
So, it’s the easy button for R700 footprint. The Master, figures out how to make something really better that fits an established pattern. And at least one master has accomplished this, and I am proud to own one. (His initials MB)
Yes, the Rem700 has always been a price point rifle, meaning that cost to manufacture was really low. I used to buy stripped short action receivers for $53 and bolt bodies for slightly more; all in to start a build on the action was around $120 or so.
The retail price of rifles from Remington was considerably lower than all the competition, which is what led to the popularity, not the quality, features, and so on. Based on shear numbers out there, just like the Rem 870, Ruger 10/22, AR15's, Glock's, is what has led to mass adoption by consumers. They're cheap, parts are cheap and plentiful and one can buy the stuff anywhere.
Editing to add, the Rem700 is also easy to copy
.And, @carbonbased, so help me, if you bring up the LS vs Coyote debate....don't even....Coyote all the way.
MB
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I'm aware of what all the marketing said (gun companies are really marketing companies that sell guns), but diving into the actual designs is a different story. And one can't deny, as has been demonstrated more than we can speak to, properly dealt with, a Rem700 will truly shoot.
MB
True, but even the Corvette guys are doing Coyote swaps now to outrun the Coyote guys.
MB
*In my best fudd voice*...Coyote!?...this new action is going to have dual overhead safeties, be as big as a magnum action and require special triggers.
*In my best fudd voice*...Coyote!?...this new action is going to have dual overhead safeties, be as big as a magnum action and require special triggers.
Mine goes really fast.
MB
My thoughts exactly as I was reading, growing up it was chevy chevy chevy, I went Ford just because and low and behold a better mousetrap is born, Sure the 700SA is great but only because it was cheap and everybody had one not necessarily because it was better.Yes, the Rem700 has always been a price point rifle, meaning that cost to manufacture was really low. I used to buy stripped short action receivers for $53 and bolt bodies for slightly more; all in to start a build on the action was around $120 or so.
The retail price of rifles from Remington was considerably lower than all the competition, which is what led to the popularity, not the quality, features, and so on. Based on shear numbers out there, just like the Rem 870, Ruger 10/22, AR15's, Glock's, is what has led to mass adoption by consumers. They're cheap, parts are cheap and plentiful and one can buy the stuff anywhere.
Editing to add, the Rem700 is also easy to copy
And, @carbonbased, so help me, if you bring up the LS vs Coyote debate....don't even....Coyote all the way.
MB
Y'all shoulda heard the comments the first time I brought a 1.250 strait barrel to a match, now look at what is popular.
This is very odd..
VGW supposedly shits the bed and closes shop then ALL of a sudden MB starts another company.
If this wasn’t a set up and not in the works for awhile I’d be very surprised.
Go ahead and add this to the list of conspiracies.
VGW supposedly shits the bed and closes shop then ALL of a sudden MB starts another company.
If this wasn’t a set up and not in the works for awhile I’d be very surprised.
Go ahead and add this to the list of conspiracies.
And Epstein didn't kill himself.
Actually, I'm quiet and very patient....and timing is everything.
MB
So now, to focus on some key areas that appeared to be off-topic (Rem700, pre-64 Win, LS vs Coyote), but were dropped in to serve a larger conversation. Now it's time to add the next part.
The reason I used @carbonbased as a launch pad isn't only because he's a funny Dude and I knew he'd get it, but instead, because someone used the most over used word in the gun industry: INNOVATE.
If anything is done under the guise of innovation that doesn't properly serve this equation:
Accuracy and precision are two measures of observational error.
Accuracy is how close a given set of observations are to their true value.
Precision is how close the observations are to each other.
Is it really innovation?
MB
The reason I used @carbonbased as a launch pad isn't only because he's a funny Dude and I knew he'd get it, but instead, because someone used the most over used word in the gun industry: INNOVATE.
If anything is done under the guise of innovation that doesn't properly serve this equation:
Accuracy and precision are two measures of observational error.
Accuracy is how close a given set of observations are to their true value.
Precision is how close the observations are to each other.
Is it really innovation?
MB
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Having spent my career building complex software, many many times the answer is obvious after having spent many many many hours/days/months doing it the wrong way. But getting to that obvious answer required detailed knowledge of the system and a lot of work. I had a saying, simple is not easy, it is very very hard. But it is obvious once it is found.
Innovation to me is like that. Understanding the system in depth and being able to apply the right answer to the problem. Not bandaids, but understanding root cause and fixing the real problems. Sometimes that is just the obvious answer once found.
Shower thoughts: i wonder if there is any measurable benefit to striking the whole rim of a case vs the 1 or 2 FP solutions we've had.
Also something flat bottomed and a trigger hanger system so the action can be bonded would be nice. Despite the results unbonded centerfire can produce I still believe a flat bottomed bonded action has much less chance of shifting. No data to back that up, just my personal feelings.
Also something flat bottomed and a trigger hanger system so the action can be bonded would be nice. Despite the results unbonded centerfire can produce I still believe a flat bottomed bonded action has much less chance of shifting. No data to back that up, just my personal feelings.
There is also a "usability" component to the solution: if it's too hard to use, what effect does that have on marketability / market uptake?
I have met... too many... Vudoo buyers who loudly proclaimed the rifle was Garbage because it wouldn't feed. Damn near every time, the complainer was pushing the follower button all the way down and dumping in rounds, with the expected result of rim lock and misfeeds. This is not to discount real issues associated with some R700 stocks/chassis that simply would not hold magazines in the REQUIRED position; my original MPA chassis was one of those - and Phil Cashin fixed it, as Mike has described.
So, one of Mike's challenges is to "innovate" a feeding solution that's innovative/accurate/precise AND as idiot-proof as possible, while still being marketable. The reality is, while the R700 footprint may not be the optimal accuracy/precision solution, it has damn sure sold a crap ton of Vudoos, Rim-Xs, and Bergaras.
Usability of a product, regardless of the vertical, (guns, software, furniture, anything ) HAS to be a primary focus for long term success. It also has to work. Get both.
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