Do high powered optics create a larger margin of error?

[VIrtualWatts]

Greetings, I am an experienced shooter, mostly pistols and carbines, and am exploring out beyond 600yds. My optics experience is in low power lpvo and mids.
I have a simple optics question as I'm trying to dial in a Rem700 300wm and having a heck of time. This question is not about equipment, just theory and practice of high powered optics like a 4.5-27x56 scope. Assume a sufficient platform and caliber, properly zeroed scope and ranged for distance

Does a 27x power scope create any more margin of error between what you see and what you shoot? Meaning if I am slightly off as I see it in the scope does that hold true (what you see is what you get) or is the error magnified along with the optics?

Here is a simple example to illustrate my question. I'm an MOA guy so bear with me.
- If I have a target that is 6MOA across, and on the target have a 1MOA circle, I can sight in that target and keep the crosshairs completely within that 1MOA circle. At no point does the crosshairs leave the 1MOA circle. When the shot breaks I know where the reticle was on the target and expect to see a POI at that place. Should the POI be at the crosshairs (all other variables removed) or if there was movement is the error magnified?
That is, if I have a pulse or pull a shot at 2'oclock on the edge of that 1MOA circle, does the optic magnify that to to be 2 or 3 MOA POI or should I expect the POI to be at the edge of that 1MOA circle?

I know this is simple, but I'm not experiencing this effect and want to dismiss the high-powered optic. Before I go out and buy a lead sled.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The quick answer is that it's not like you think it is.
I usually shoot groups at 100 yards at 25x to see the bullet holes clearly.

More than likely you have an issue where either your scope is setup incorrectly and your parallax or eye position is shifting slightly when you zoom in, or being more zoomed in is making you chase the shots more instead of keeping your same exact point of aim.

The exit pupil diameter of a scope gets less forgiving as you go to higher magnification.
You might need to spend some time with your scope at max magnification, getting it setup so you can see it naturally without any changes to your position or straining.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

You should be able to see better, so a potential exists to allow a tighter/more consistent hold on-target. However, mirage is also enlarged, which can contribute unfavorably to error.

If one develops good tolerance for sorting out the mirage from reality, more magnification can be a big help. As one learns to correlate image distortion due to mirage and wind fluctuation, it can actually aid in estimating wind compensation.

I would worry less about movement once the shot breaks, because most often, the bullet is long gone before recoil can cause a large sight picture deflection.

Consider that a bullet starting out a zero fps, and emerging 24" down the barrel at 3000 fps, has an average velocity of 1500 fps. So it travels down a barrel in roughly two fifteen hundredths of a second. The human eye can only resolve motion picture frames at a rate of about 1/25 of a second. It's all over (long gone) way before you can catch it with the human eye.

But the scope itself can generate issues, especially when zooming in and out. This is one area were the price of premium optics can have a valuable impact on one's shooting.

Something to consider is that much of that upper end of the magnification range can be made unreliable by mirage. I spent years using a 6-24x scope, and seldom used much above 18x because the mirage dance just made the target too indistinct. My current scopes go up to 42x, but I have the same issues, and sometimes, 18x-20x is still my limit. Also understand that mirage is not a product of a hot day, but rather a product of heat variations of the atmosphere segments in the distance between target and shooter. Mirage can still plague you on a cold day.

Light can be bent by air density variations just the same as it can by transitioning between one lens and the next in a stack.

For instance, if you can see a hawk or buzzard circling above a particular point on the ground, you have found a warm column of rising air. That column has less density, and as the light travels through it and the next, a more or less dense segment will cause it to bend at the transition, and so on along the trajectory. What this does is to move the aiming point in the scope's picture, without a corresponding movement of the target itself. So you're actually aiming at a spot somewhat different from the actual part of the target you're trying for. As distances increase, so does the number of transitions. So while you're remaining perfectly still, the target appears to dance around in the mirage.

This is my main reason for my not hunting at extreme distances. The scope may be pointing at a perfect kill zone, but at 800yd, the barrel may be pointing at the elk's rump. That could maim a beautiful animal. One could blame mirage, but who's the one who accepted the sight picture and fired?

Consider what you see when you put a stick into the water and look at it. The stick appears bent at the transition between air and water, but we know it's not. Same thing. If the water is running, the image will dance, just like the mirage. This rippling effect comes from turbulence, which is what wind does to mirage.

Two things come from this. The first is that higher magnifications tend to be more truthful (and therefore more useful) at nearer distance than at vast ones. The second is that the mirage dance can be exhausting to watch, and is one reason why some experienced shooters will throw in the towel and reduce the magnification before their nerves get totally frazzled.

In days of simpler optics, sniper scopes tended to be limited to a 10x fixed power. This took away most of the frazzled nerves, and the non-zoom eliminated zoom-associated image wiggles. We all thought Uncle Sugar really need to catch up with modern optics, but Unc was actually right about holding off until the optics folks got their gear more rugged and reliable.

I'm not completely ignorant on the subject; I worked for Razdow Labs on the Apollo Project (yes, that one), and was responsible for the fabrication and delivery of the Command Module Docking Windows, including reticles; as well as the NASA Solar Optical Tracking Network, a ring of $20K+ea refractors encircling the Equator.

A (perhaps) bonus here is that observing the dance and comparing it to the bullet impact can be one of the very best ways to learn how to understand mirage, and choose things like hold-offs when the mirage is running bad, making the bet as it were.

Greg

 

[Alabusa]

If your reticle isn't setup true then your dials will be farther off as distance increases.

 

[VIrtualWatts]

Appreciate the answers, my takeaway is that no, not optically a change, but that that zoom can cause the shooter to be inconsistent. Since the Razor HD gen iii is pretty good glass, for me that was as premium as I wanted to go, and I really like the reticle, not questioning quality.
Great points, I've noticed I'm not consistent on cheek weld as I zoom to higher power, as you say, eyebox less forgiving. I'm going to go back to 100yd indoor range and rethink based on your input.

 

[VIrtualWatts]

If your reticle isn't setup true then your dials will be farther off as distance increases.

Right, very good point, that I'm not sure how to test except walk up a target with multiple shots at same distance and look for variance in vertical string. I'm sure there's a test for that here on the forum I can peruse.

 

[Alabusa]

Right, very good point, that I'm not sure how to test except walk up a target with multiple shots at same distance and look for variance in vertical string. I'm sure there's a test for that here on the forum I can peruse.

Tall target test

 

[cas6969]

More "zoom" can play head l games with you as well, I've had plenty of people say to me over the years "I don't like it, I'm moving too much." Of course you have to explain to them that they're moving just as much as they always do, it's just now they notice it. That works both ways though, I know I've owned things that for whatever reason (all mental) I shot them better or lower settings than high. (not rested group shooting, but practical field use)

 

[ma smith]

Appreciate the answers, my takeaway is that no, not optically a change, but that that zoom can cause the shooter to be inconsistent.

I'm trying to dial in a Rem700 300wm and having a heck of time.

you're shooting a 300 win mag

do a little science experiment.

try the same with .223

 

[W54/XM-388]

One other point since you are shooting a .300wm
Consider that after 10 shots to 20 at the very most, you are probably done for the day as far as your best target shooting and making sure everything is perfect, if you are shooting prone.

Some folks can prone shoot a .300WM all day and be good but that's the exception.

 

[Alabusa]

With a .300WM, I shoot one a lot, an efficient muzzle brake is a must when doing lots of bench/prone work/testing.

 

[VIrtualWatts]

you're shooting a 300 win mag

do a little science experiment.

try the same with .223

@ma smith don't I know it, I've been shooting 5.56/.223 for 25 years, both practical and competitive, iron and optics, but I've never put large glass on the tiny pill. an RDS or Holo with 5x was always enough and as I got older the 1-6 lpvo's. My LR308 also a tack driver, but again, never needed more than 15x. I shoot "better" at the lower powers and was trying to deduce why. lots of good input

 

[VIrtualWatts]

One other point since you are shooting a .300wm
Consider that after 10 shots to 20 at the very most, you are probably done for the day as far as your best target shooting and making sure everything is perfect, if you are shooting prone.

Some folks can prone shoot a .300WM all day and be good but that's the exception.

LOL, you know I dismissed this because I don't see the recoil as that much, and I'm deaf so blast wasn't a thing, but you are right, I recognize there is not an "all day on the range" for this caliber like the smaller semi's, it does have an effect.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm not among the more affluent shooters.

My optics usually wear Vortex or Bushnell logos. Neither brand has ever given me a problem that cannot be accrued to my own inexperience/error.

Reading the manual and understanding how your gear works, do's and don't s, and what it can and can't do before you buy it can be a crucial task. One basic rule of thumb is that a human eye in good health can resolve objects down to roughly 1 MOA, and that except for high precision scopes, this degrades near the edges of the scope image. Higher magnifications frequently become negated by lower ambient light, learn and understand what the optical pupil is, how it relates to optical systems, and what it means to the suitability of a given scope. Large objective lenses can be very useful when a shot must be taken in dim light, and can result in a brighter image of darker sectors within a visual image. But they can also tempt one to try a more risky shot, and do serious eye damage when inadvertently aimed at powerful light source. For most bright days, they tend to be extra baggage.

Hitting or missing a target is also influenced by factors like confidence and familiarity with your scope/rifle combination. Often these things can prompt one to hold a shot, which can go a ways toward better judgement and a higher hit/miss ratio.

Judgement is relative in many cases to where the shooting is occurring. Misses are important, too. They always hit something. Few of us live in war zones where collateral damage can have a borderline acceptance. Using the zoom can tell you more about where that delinquent bullet ended up. Over penetration can mean additional consequences, and some of them can be serious.

I can tell you personally that it's no fun having to explain to the Deputy about where those rounds all went. It seldom pays off to engage in night fighting with a Mojave Rattlesnake. Aggressive, fast; they can teach you the wisdom of taking time to plan your initial shot(s), and about just how hard it is to withdraw by running backward in the dark.

Big bores can be impressive. I can't shoot them for post operative medical reasons. but they will be fatiguing for anyone in large doses. Fatigue affects accuracy as well as judgement. My limit is .30-'06/165-168gr. A National Match Course defeats me and my Garand, I just can't get it done well anymore.

But switching out then to a 5.56 is just fine, and my Stag Model 6 Super Varminter will get it done well out 600yd or maybe even a bit more. If you like that extra reach, look around for a Model 6, they are great guns. I like 'em enough to have a pair; the second built from the factory kit offer, an hour's work at most. The second allows for self run matches.

Both Model 6's carry Mueller 8-32x44 A/O scopes, available with either MOA or Mil-Dot reticles. Triggers are tuned to be 3.3lb, which is too light to qualify for N/M Course specs. They an be substituted with Schmidt Nickel-Boron Two Stage Match triggers, which are 2lb + 2.5lb trigger sets which provide the full required 4.5lb pull weight.

Greg

 

[VIrtualWatts]

Closing out this thread. I appreciate the comments and sharing experience. Using a lead sled and 100yd fixed point indoor range eliminated many variables. Ran a fairly expensive ammo matrix and here I realized that all 220's were .5" or less groups, whereas the 200gr and 180gr were opening up and throwing flyers. This pattern became consistent across ammo and bullet style, ELD-X, Ascent, SMK. 220's would cloverleaf, the 200's string, the 180's sporadic. I had counted on the 5R barrel to be good enough till shot out, and now will reconsider. Oh and the tall target test showed no creep on come-ups. Thanks.

 

[lash]

Great points, I've noticed I'm not consistent on cheek weld as I zoom to higher power, as you say, eyebox less forgiving. I'm going to go back to 100yd indoor range and rethink based on your input.

I last thing. You need to work on fitting the scope, stock and optic to you and your body. It is important that when you set your head/cheek on the rest, that it falls/is placed as naturally as possible so that the sight picture is always there without shuffling around to acquire it.

 

[acudaowner]

have used 40x's mag non stop for the last 3 almost 4 years it's great paying 1/2 of the price of most 5x25 scopes and getting 5x50 just feels so nice .