Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

[Phil3]

After building an AR15, I have to wonder if a custom AR (AR15 or AR10) from a high end maker is really going to offer superior accuracy. And if so, why. Seems to my relatively inexperienced mind, that what can be done to make an AR rifle accurate is within the realm of what a well equipped home builder can do. I do not see where the custom builder has a selection of superior parts. Perhaps they know something about what parts work together to produce superior accuracy? Such as optimal barrel lengths and diameters that produce best accuracy. Or maybe they do things such as ensuring squareness of barrel extension flange and upper receiver face, precise torque of components, and ???. I don't know, but asking.

I have access to tools that can measure and/or fix most measurable defects, but not sure if that is what custom builders do, or even exactly what they do. I could ream my own chamber, but not skilled enough to do that!

No disputing that GAP for instance makes a fine AR10, but is there anything they do or buy that a private owner can not?

- Phil

 

[Kaisersose]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I hate to say it, but with the AR platform, to me, it seems that almost all the accuracy comes from the barrel. (ie quality of blank and the chamber work)

However from what I have read most of the time building a custom upper, I think it will cost you almost as much as just letting a smith build you one since they get a parts volume discount.

 

[BCP]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

Well, if you have the tools (google around for awhile to get an idea of all the stuff you'll need) and feel comfortable assembling and checking headspace then by all means go for it. As far as the barrel goes there are tons of companies out there that make fine barrels so take your pick.

As with anything I would also imagine that a guy who has made lots and lots of good shooting AR's will do better at it than a guy who's making one for the very first time in his garage.

 

[bustin]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

Most productions barrels look kind of like the first one, some AR Custom builders use real match grade blanks which look more like the second barrel shown. Do you think the second barrel might be more accurate?
[url="http://www.riflebarrels.com/borescope_hi.asx"]www.riflebarrels.com/borescope_hi.asx [/url]

 

[wheelchairman]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I would venture to say that it doesn't make much difference. I think truing the receiver face is about the (debatable) most beneficial thing one can do through a custom builder that most home garages don't have the ability to do.

Buy a quality barrel, quality trigger, take your time building and then develop a load the gun likes. True the receiver face if desired. I would guess 99% of the shooters wouldn't be as accurate as the home built gun to know if the custom gun was really better. I like to tell people I have a 1/2 MOA gun and a 1.5 MOA trigger finger.

 

[splean]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I have two uppers. Both are fitted with 20" barrels. One is a 1-9 slightly heavier than GI profile from Model One Sales on a no-name upper. The other is a custom built on a VLTOR upper with a WOA 20" DMR barrel. The 1-9 shoots 1" and under with 52gr and 69gr handloads. The cutom shoots about the same but I haven't tried heavier rounds yet. In the end I think the accuracy of this platform is in the barrel and there are a lot of fine barrels out there.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you have the tools (google around for awhile to get an idea of all the stuff you'll need) and feel comfortable assembling and checking headspace then by all means go for it. As far as the barrel goes there are tons of companies out there that make fine barrels so take your pick.

As with anything I would also imagine that a guy who has made lots and lots of good shooting AR's will do better at it than a guy who's making one for the very first time in his garage. </div></div>
First AR build I did shoots under half MOA at 100 yards so I wouldn't agree with your post. I think top of the line parts and BARREL can make any gun shoot better.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate to say it, but with the AR platform, to me, it seems that almost all the accuracy comes from the barrel. (ie quality of blank and the chamber work)

However from what I have read most of the time building a custom upper, I think it will cost you almost as much as just letting a smith build you one since they get a parts volume discount. </div></div>

sir you are spot on. The only other option is the drilling of the gas port. I know that CLE does different size ports based on ammunition type, barrel length and so on.

I would buy a barrel from CLE and build it my self. That would be the smartest option I feel.

John

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

what I find appealing about the custom builds is that they are
better at getting your $$ back when you sell--rarely have I gotten a good price with one of my own used builds--the accuracy of either can be stellar but the big name custom will hold its value better---we all know it's POSSIBLE to get an ER Shaw barrel to shoot sub-moa but it is a fact that a Krieger or Rock
will--also many of the custom builds come with an accuracy guarantee and test target

 

[Phil3]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

Responses here pretty much indicate what I thought. My AR15, built for accuracy had the $$$ invested into the Krieger barrel and Geissele trigger. I also carefully assembled it, used torque wrenches, etc. It IS quite accurate, with cheap off the shelf ammo at 100 yards. Still, I kept looking for ways to make it more accurate, but there just isn't much I can find to do.

I did have one AR10 builder tell me they would only use their handguard since they claimed the gun would only shoot as well they claimed with that guard. No explanation for that. Maybe that is the case, but I am less than convinced.

But, as one said, any home built gun's resale will be nothing like a GAP, even if if the buyer could shoot stellar groups with it before buying it. But if not selling, a moot point, and besides, the gun I built is precisely what I wanted, and a bit cheaper to build vs buying outright.

- Phil

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

Barrel+Trigger.
As for the handguard, I like freefloats, they are lighter but if your sitting with a bipod you should be fine.

 

[CSS]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

Match quality barrel+ good trigger+ solid mounted butt stock(nothing that rattles/wiggles).
Ammo that is matched to the barrel, Trigger time, trigger time, trigger time.

 

[BCP]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I wouldn't agree with your post.</div></div>

Well, I'm not sure what I said that you aren't able to agree with, but okay. Also not sure why you put "barrel" in capital letters but whatever.

 

[B y r o n]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

If you like to tinker, have some mechanical ability, can afford the right tools, enjoy the freedom of choice instead of simply buying what's available then you can build an accurate a AR platform gun. As previously stated, the parts are available, the procedures are available it's just a matter of time and money. Waiting on parts can try your patience but the same can be said for waiting on your custom to be built.

I've purchased customs, bolt guns, because I don't have the machinery to do what is necessary. But I've built my own AR based guns because I enjoy seeing the results once the parts are assembled.

Price can be a factor and maybe I could have bought a custom AR gun for what I've spent on parts but there is no way to price the level of enjoyment seeing the efforts of your labor at work. I don't sell my guns so resale means nothing to me.

Choose your parts wisely and they will reward you later, even if you decide to sell.

 

[bustin]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I wouldn't agree with your post.</div></div>

Well, I'm not sure what I said that you aren't able to agree with, but okay. Also not sure why you put "barrel" in capital letters but whatever. </div></div>
Well, I agree with you, the guy in the garage probably doesn't have the tools to square the receiver or the barrel extension or even check to see if the barrel is straight. Probably doesn't own a bore scope to check for burrs on one side of the lands in the crown or see if the barrel he bought because it was advertised as a match barrel is really a match grade barrel or a production grade barrel from a DOD contractor that decided they could sell their barrels at twice the price to the ignorant public. Probably would have to experiment with gas port sizes so the rifle isn't over-gassed and opening early which destroys accuracy where the guy that builds 20 a day has all of the tools and knows exactly what to do in the correct order. Anyone can slap an AR together (I built one on the tailgate of my truck about 20 years ago) but that doesn't mean it will be capable of going out and winning any comp or hitting a p dog at 400yds.

 

[head2h2o]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

A quality barrel and trigger seem to make the difference in the AR's. Krieger makes very accurate AR10 barrels. The ones that I have had would shoot sub-MOA easily with an reasonable handload and 175 SMK.

 

[Kappes]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

Hello , New guy here . I recently built a MK12 SPR clone with a krieger barrel . 18 inch SS 1 in 8 twist that is crazy accurate . I also free floated it with a knighs FF rail and had the trigger touched up a little. Thats all thats really needed for a AR15 type rifle to make them accurate . Just my .02

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

..............anyone hand lap their bolts???

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I have built both forged and billet lowers, you will get consistent quality from billet, forged lowers are all over the place. Upper receivers matter the most and suffer from the same. I know how we build ours and I know how forgings are pumped out.

Would you rather have a templar or Remington action on your bolt rifle? Its exactly the same argument.

 

[223man]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I believe that what makes an ar accurate is get a good trigger or as I have done do some work to the standard trigger its not as good as a match trigger but it will get you very close and will cost almost nothing. Then the next thing to do is free float a good barrel. On my scoped ar I have done the trigger job and I have a 20" ss heavy barrel with a 1-8 twist from model 1 sales and with hand loaded 69gr smks with 23gr of tac powder it is a tack driver. The best I get when I am doing my job is .348" groups at 100yrds. Also I have a cheep 4-16x50 center point for the glass. So what I am saying is I don't believe that you have to have the best stuff to make an ar shoot out standing. Also it will cost much less than a custom rifle that you would buy.

 

[bmt]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..............anyone hand lap their bolts??? </div></div>

My dog licks his nuts, does that count?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

OK i used to shoot IPSC when we were allowed to have AR's some could afford the Colt Delta H Bar's but most of us could not back then we would only shoot to 300 yards max with them and mostly 150 and under so the projectile weight was not an issue. what we did to make the standard Colt AR15 shoot was.

First chop the front sight off
2nd remove the front handguard and fit a free floated handguard
3rd hone and grind trigger and fit an accu wedge
4th mill the carry handle off and drill and tap the action then secure a weaver rail to the upper.
5th load and shoot 52gr Sierra matchKings
6th we also fitted jet comps to them for fast shooting.

this was before the flat toped recievers were made and we used the factory barrels.

The rifles with this done to them would all shoot under 1/2" at 100 yards it was amasing how accurate the factory colt barrels were and free floating them was the biggest accuracy enhancement we could do. the rifles worked like this would outshoot the H-Bars every time in pure accuracy

So if you can buy a flat toped action with a free floated forend then have a good trigger the rifle should shoot without to much extra work dont to them so as an AR15 they are the most important things to have done. if you can an 8 twist barrel will be awsome for shooting heavy projectiles but not required for lighter projectiles under 300 yards.

Hope that helps

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: head2h2o</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A quality barrel and trigger seem to make the difference in the AR's. Krieger makes very accurate AR10 barrels. The ones that I have had would shoot sub-MOA easily with an reasonable handload and 175 SMK. </div></div>

I still get confused on the value of custom builds. My AR-10 has put 10 rounds under a .25 piece. 168 gr. Bergers, and IMR 4064. It's an older CM barrel. I can't shoot better than that, at any price.

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

One other point. How do you define accuracy? 1 to.5 MOA is accurate, but .5 won't get you bragging rights in benchrest. I think we forget, "Practical Accuracy," in some of these threads. My AR's have "practical Accuracy," for what I have them for. Varmint hunting 1:8 twist, shtf, urban combat 1:9 twist, and shooting out to 600 yrds Stock AR-10-T. I have not tried any more distance, but I believe I can go another 200 with the AR -10T, or the Rem. 40X.

 

[bustin]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

.5-.75 MOA is a decent shooter for highpower, varmints or a DMR type rifle. For duty, 3 gun or carbine courses 1 moa is good enough IMO.
That is where the quality of barrels split also, any production grade barrel with decent ammo should be good enough for duty, 3 gun and carbine courses, if something more accurate is needed for comp shooting or varmints then a better grade barrel should be used.
Most 55 and 62gr ammo shoots bad, I have seen 5-6" groups with 55gr fmj and 2 minutes later the same barrel shoot 1/2" groups with 69gr Sierra's.

 

[Super Bee 950]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I have stainless match barrels that will make ragged holes. I also have a couple 1-7 twist chrome lined Bushmaster government profile barrels that shoot sub MOA.

I wont buy another high priced "name brand" barrel when my chrome lined Bushmaster barrels shoot sub MOA all day long. The Bushmaster barrels also last for 10-15K rounds whereas the stainless barrrels will start shooting like the chrome lined Bushmasters after about 4000 rounds.

I can get sub MOA barrels for $189.00. Why spend twice as much to get "sub sub" MOA for a barrel that wont last nearly as long.

Oh yea... To put another log on the fire, my Bushmaster uppers that shoot sub MOA out of the box are not free floated.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

WOW--U DON'T want to hear about my Bushmasters or OLY's--the whole reason I gave up on AR's many yrs ago--got back into them
when I started noticing their match results--I have never had a non-freefloat shoot under 1.5 in any brand--by the same token I
presently have a 20" RR that will shoot with my Satern, Larue, or
Noveske--but until u own a custom AR you will never notice the attention to detail and pride of ownership--shoot I have a 16" upper in 556 from Model 1 that shoots MOA but it is the 1 I let others try out who are wanting aan AR after seeing 1 of my customs--no way I'd loan my Larue--as a sidenote no matter what rifle I purchase with the thought that I would never get rid of it--they always come out with something.........that changes my mind--thus the value of a custom comes into play--learned my lesson the hard way with 1911's

 

[Sharpshooter]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK i used to shoot IPSC when we were allowed to have AR's some could afford the Colt Delta H Bar's but most of us could not back then we would only shoot to 300 yards max with them and mostly 150 and under so the projectile weight was not an issue. what we did to make the standard Colt AR15 shoot was.

First chop the front sight off
2nd remove the front handguard and fit a free floated handguard
3rd hone and grind trigger and fit an accu wedge
4th mill the carry handle off and drill and tap the action then secure a weaver rail to the upper.
5th load and shoot 52gr Sierra matchKings
6th we also fitted jet comps to them for fast shooting.

this was before the flat toped recievers were made and we used the factory barrels.

The rifles with this done to them would all shoot under 1/2" at 100 yards it was amasing how accurate the factory colt barrels were and free floating them was the biggest accuracy enhancement we could do. the rifles worked like this would outshoot the H-Bars every time in pure accuracy

So if you can buy a flat toped action with a free floated forend then have a good trigger the rifle should shoot without to much extra work dont to them so as an AR15 they are the most important things to have done. if you can an 8 twist barrel will be awsome for shooting heavy projectiles but not required for lighter projectiles under 300 yards.

Hope that helps

</div></div>

This.. My factory Colt 1in 7 HBAR groups like this easily, especially with the 75 grain Hornady bullets. But it shoots most bullets well.

 

[Jimff123]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

I "built" an AR that I put a lot of thought in the sense that I didn't want to buy the same parts twice, getting the best accuracy for the dollar, reliability, and most of all, steel shooting/ predator gassing fun. I spend a lot of time with my Military bros that were deployed in Iraq and AFG. What works, whats a waste of money to upgrade, etc.

It all boils down to a couple solid investments and the rest of the "stuff" really just holds the package together.

Spend the money on a barrel, I went Compass Lake 18.5" Heavy, threaded with target crown and 1:8 twist, Free float handguard, I have Troy's new one, 13" and low pro gas block. Good solid BCG, I have a Young BCG and it locks up tight. I have a standard LPK with upgraded trigger springs and I polished the trigger assembly. The rest is just what you like the looks of.

Bottom line, from a seated position crossed legs, I shoot dimes to 200 yrds with quality ammo, and quarters with everything else. My gun shoots 40 gr. to 77 gr. with out a hitch, but does not care for steel case like Wolf, so I use mostly Remington off the shelf and have a blast.

Spend money on ammo and not every gadget on the market is what they tell me.

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

+1 on the ammo vs gadgets. Every-time I read some report on AR accuracy and what it took to get those "fantastic" results, I look my stuff over. Then, decide that what-ever I'm getting could be improved first by more trigger time. So instead of spending 100's on new stuff, I get on my 550 so I can shoot more.

 

[justme]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

A little tip a friend turned me on to that I think helps hold point of impact after the barrel starts to heat up is to make sure the gas tube does not bind where it goes into the upper.
with a little clearance here - when the gas starts to heat up and starts to expand the tube, it does not tend to start putting downward pressure on the barrel. Seems to work and sounds right to me.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..............anyone hand lap their bolts??? </div></div>

Absolutely - by dry firing with a dirty rifle.

Live fire tends to lap it in pretty well too.

Unfortunately these activities require stepping away from the keyboard.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..............anyone hand lap their bolts??? </div></div>

Absolutely - by dry firing with a dirty rifle.

Live fire tends to lap it in pretty well too.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Unfortunately these activities require stepping away from the keyboard</span>.</div></div>

Seems to be more and more of the people who need to do this nowadays are on the hide.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..............anyone hand lap their bolts??? </div></div>

Absolutely - by dry firing with a dirty rifle.

Live fire tends to lap it in pretty well too.

Unfortunately these activities require stepping away from the keyboard. </div></div>

LOL

 

[Bolt_Overide]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

As others have said, in a vaccum the most important part of the AR10 type's accuracy is the quality of the barrel.

 

[Guest]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

- Can you build an accurate AR yourself?
Short answer: Yes! If you choose your parts carefully

In building some of my precision AR's I have found some issues that would be better resolved by a gunsmith than I. Mating feed ramps/barrel ext., shortening & recrowning, widening the gas port....these may be things better suited for those with the proper tools and know how.

That being said, don't think you need "THE BEST" everything. Key emphasis on barrels and triggers. And while it goes without saying that putting a Kreiger barrel in a junk AR probably won't get the best results, only optiing for the most uber-premium billet upper with "gas blaster" technology won't add that much more to the system.

Speaking from experience, I built an AR with what I considered to be the pinaccle of each part (Kreiger barrel, Geiselle trigger, Billet upper, etc.) It was no more capable than one I had made previously from mostly basic, quality Colt parts. Plus, the "high end" build had some cusom work done. The "Colt" was done 100% in house by me.

 

[smithc6]

Re: Does a Custom AR = More Accurate AR?

In my experience it depends on the parts used and who built it