EC tuner brake

[BFuller]

Hello,
Could you please tell me what is the thread size (type) in standard EC Tuner? I"m from metric world and .850-24tpi stated in the barrel installation instructions on Erik's website doesn't make sense to me. I know 5/8-24 tpi, 3/4-32tpi and others but I don't get this .850. I'm about to swap my barrel for new one and I'm really confused by that I know that .850 is close to 3/4 and 13/16 but what thread is on tuner if any?? Please help

Two things: (to my knowledge)

-If you are talking about the muzzle break tuner combo part, you just need standard 5/8-24 muzzle threads, nothing else.

-If you want the tuner that sits behind the muzzle device of your choice (just a tuner), there are some special features you need to machine into your barrel near the muzzle and for that you need at least .850 inches of barrel diameter for it to work. See attached drawing of the extra thread details for the non-muzzle break tuner.

 

[Ledzep]

Major diameter of the thread is .850", then 24 threads per inch. Non-standard size.

 

[Snuby642]

To anyone that thinks a tuner does not work.

Take ANY rifle you own and shoot groups with a thread protector, birdcage and a muzzle brake.

Any brand or caliber of center fire.

Your group size and poi is moving.
Longer thinner barrels are more pronounced.

No math or science degree needed to confirm results.

EC has made what I dreamt of and a nice job . I want a black one so I will wait.

Any of you that have ran a lathe, mill and engraver will know his price point is gtg.

I also like that EC doesn't act like a snob.

IMHO

 

[Quickoz]

To anyone that thinks a tuner does not work.

Take ANY rifle you own and shoot groups with a thread protector, birdcage and a muzzle brake.

Any brand or caliber of center fire.

Your group size and poi is moving.
Longer thinner barrels are more pronounced.

No math or science degree needed to confirm results.

EC has made what I dreamt of and a nice job . I want a black one so I will wait.

Any of you that have ran a lathe, mill and engraver will know his price point is gtg.

I also like that EC doesn't act like a snob.

IMHO

Ill agree with your machining comment for sure. Alot of people don't understand the time it takes do make stuff. even simple stuff. Its annoying at times when you have to explain to them what's involved to make it manually.

 

[Snuby642]

Or the amount of money for machines, tooling, program licensing if not manual, coatings, testing the list goes on and on.

I worked in a shop that did one off's and extremely limmited runs that didn't have the constraint of a profit margin, .gov stuff.

Nearly every day was an emergency hair on fire day for our
" customer".

 

[Quickoz]

Hahaha. Im prototyping something now. Its not my fulltime job and already down a day due to sorting equipment issues, etc.

 

[kthomas]

To anyone that thinks a tuner does not work.

Take ANY rifle you own and shoot groups with a thread protector, birdcage and a muzzle brake.

Any brand or caliber of center fire.

Your group size and poi is moving.
Longer thinner barrels are more pronounced.

No math or science degree needed to confirm results.

EC has made what I dreamt of and a nice job . I want a black one so I will wait.

Any of you that have ran a lathe, mill and engraver will know his price point is gtg.

I also like that EC doesn't act like a snob.

IMHO

I just got back from the range, using a pre-production self timing tuner brake from one of the more popular self timing brake companies. This is my first time ever using a tuner.

I only shot at 100 yards today, using it on my 6BRA rifle. The rifle has a 28" Krieger, and was spun up by TS Customs with my own custom reamer. The gun is a fuckin proverbial "hammer", and usually amazes me with the tiny groups it pulls off.

Adjusting the tuner, I did see the POI shift with very small incremental turns. I did not see any improvement in group size over my regular configuration, though I did see the groups stay small and then start to open up as I played with it. My smallest group of the day was still with my regular configuration (my regular self timing brake).

On a custom gun, with a custom barrel & chamber, and proper reloads, I don't see a tuner being an advantage. Not for PRS. Perhaps I need to play with it more (which I will), and maybe I need to see what the difference is at distance. I can get behind the premise for using one on a factory gun with factory ammo, and .22 rifles, perhaps.

What's interesting to read is that people in PRS are using it to allegedly shrink their groups, where the BR guys who have been using it for decades aren't using it to shrink their groups, but to "widen their node". However, even BR guys can't agree on how to use them, which I find fascinating.

There still seems to be a lot of myth and lore about tuners, and from what I've seen so far I'm not convinced they are the right tool for our discipline. If you have a custom gun and good reloads, you aren't going to make your groups any smaller. But perhaps there's other benefits with a tuner that I haven't found yet. I'll keep testing, and see what I can find out.

 

[Dooby]

Anyone's preorder disappear from their EC account detail?

 

[BFuller]

I just got back from the range, using a pre-production self timing tuner brake from one of the more popular self timing brake companies. This is my first time ever using a tuner.

I only shot at 100 yards today, using it on my 6BRA rifle. The rifle has a 28" Krieger, and was spun up by TS Customs with my own custom reamer. The gun is a fuckin proverbial "hammer", and usually amazes me with the tiny groups it pulls off.

Adjusting the tuner, I did see the POI shift with very small incremental turns. I did not see any improvement in group size over my regular configuration, though I did see the groups stay small and then start to open up as I played with it. My smallest group of the day was still with my regular configuration (my regular self timing brake).

On a custom gun, with a custom barrel & chamber, and proper reloads, I don't see a tuner being an advantage. Not for PRS. Perhaps I need to play with it more (which I will), and maybe I need to see what the difference is at distance. I can get behind the premise for using one on a factory gun with factory ammo, and .22 rifles, perhaps.

What's interesting to read is that people in PRS are using it to allegedly shrink their groups, where the BR guys who have been using it for decades aren't using it to shrink their groups, but to "widen their node". However, even BR guys can't agree on how to use them, which I find fascinating.

There still seems to be a lot of myth and lore about tuners, and from what I've seen so far I'm not convinced they are the right tool for our discipline. If you have a custom gun and good reloads, you aren't going to make your groups any smaller. But perhaps there's other benefits with a tuner that I haven't found yet. I'll keep testing, and see what I can find out.

Before you go out next you could seat some bullets to somewhere you don't get as good of groups (simulated factory condition) and see if you can bring it in with the tuner. I know that doesn't help you, but it would be a nice test to better understand the tuner capabilities.

 

[BFuller]

I just got back from the range, using a pre-production self timing tuner brake from one of the more popular self timing brake companies. This is my first time ever using a tuner.

I only shot at 100 yards today, using it on my 6BRA rifle. The rifle has a 28" Krieger, and was spun up by TS Customs with my own custom reamer. The gun is a fuckin proverbial "hammer", and usually amazes me with the tiny groups it pulls off.

Adjusting the tuner, I did see the POI shift with very small incremental turns. I did not see any improvement in group size over my regular configuration, though I did see the groups stay small and then start to open up as I played with it. My smallest group of the day was still with my regular configuration (my regular self timing brake).

On a custom gun, with a custom barrel & chamber, and proper reloads, I don't see a tuner being an advantage. Not for PRS. Perhaps I need to play with it more (which I will), and maybe I need to see what the difference is at distance. I can get behind the premise for using one on a factory gun with factory ammo, and .22 rifles, perhaps.

What's interesting to read is that people in PRS are using it to allegedly shrink their groups, where the BR guys who have been using it for decades aren't using it to shrink their groups, but to "widen their node". However, even BR guys can't agree on how to use them, which I find fascinating.

There still seems to be a lot of myth and lore about tuners, and from what I've seen so far I'm not convinced they are the right tool for our discipline. If you have a custom gun and good reloads, you aren't going to make your groups any smaller. But perhaps there's other benefits with a tuner that I haven't found yet. I'll keep testing, and see what I can find out.

Shot a friend's 6BRA last weekend at loved it!

 

[kthomas]

Before you go out next you could seat some bullets to somewhere you don't get as good of groups (simulated factory condition) and see if you can bring it in with the tuner. I know that doesn't help you, but it would be a nice test to better understand the tuner capabilities.

I would be pretty interested to see how a tuner may improve groups with factory ammo. I have a 6.5 creedmoor with a custom barrel and chamber, not sure how much that will benefit from a tuner or not, but would be interested in finding out. Even more so with a factory rifle and factory ammo.

 

[kthomas]

Shot a friend's 6BRA last weekend at loved it!

How can you not love a 6BRA when it shoots 5 round groups like this:

 

[BFuller]

How can you not love a 6BRA when it shoots 5 round groups like this:

View attachment 7551419

 

[Snuby642]

I just got back from the range, using a pre-production self timing tuner brake from one of the more popular self timing brake companies. This is my first time ever using a tuner.

I only shot at 100 yards today, using it on my 6BRA rifle. The rifle has a 28" Krieger, and was spun up by TS Customs with my own custom reamer. The gun is a fuckin proverbial "hammer", and usually amazes me with the tiny groups it pulls off.

Adjusting the tuner, I did see the POI shift with very small incremental turns. I did not see any improvement in group size over my regular configuration, though I did see the groups stay small and then start to open up as I played with it. My smallest group of the day was still with my regular configuration (my regular self timing brake).

On a custom gun, with a custom barrel & chamber, and proper reloads, I don't see a tuner being an advantage. Not for PRS. Perhaps I need to play with it more (which I will), and maybe I need to see what the difference is at distance. I can get behind the premise for using one on a factory gun with factory ammo, and .22 rifles, perhaps.

What's interesting to read is that people in PRS are using it to allegedly shrink their groups, where the BR guys who have been using it for decades aren't using it to shrink their groups, but to "widen their node". However, even BR guys can't agree on how to use them, which I find fascinating.

There still seems to be a lot of myth and lore about tuners, and from what I've seen so far I'm not convinced they are the right tool for our discipline. If you have a custom gun and good reloads, you aren't going to make your groups any smaller. But perhaps there's other benefits with a tuner that I haven't found yet. I'll keep testing, and see what I can find out.

If you have a gun allready in the holy grail zone with your ammo,
I think your right, no point in a tuner for some lucky folks.

But that still leaves many people, I'd say a majority that a tuner would be a viable tool for.

There are barrels that load development will never turn into a holy grail. Possibly a tuner will help them.

 

[Dthomas3523]

There are barrels that load development will never turn into a holy grail. Possibly a tuner will help them.

Worth noting, a tuner likely won’t do anything noticeable that load development won’t do......for the type of shooting we do.

The only discipline that will benefit from load development + tuner are things such as F class.

So, while a tuner can replace seating depth for practical shooting (obviously factory ammo is another story), if you couldn’t get a barrel to shoot the way you want with seating depth, you won’t be able to make it shoot with a tuner.

 

[Snuby642]

Worth noting, a tuner likely won’t do anything noticeable that load development won’t do......for the type of shooting we do.

The only discipline that will benefit from load development + tuner are things such as F class.

So, while a tuner can replace seating depth for practical shooting (obviously factory ammo is another story), if you couldn’t get a barrel to shoot the way you want with seating depth, you won’t be able to make it shoot with a tuner.

First of all the kind of shooting we do?
WE, shoot a lot of different disciplines.
The guns WE own vary greatly, it's not all prs.

It's understandable that a high quality prs gun with finely tuned ammo may see less return on a tuner.

But that leaves all the rest of "WE" and a multitude of mixed equipment with various degrees of quality.

Some guns are limmited by magazine length and seating depth is limited by that and desired ammount of powder in the case.
Hell I heard some poor basterds don't even run a 24 inch barrel at times.

Like I said some of WE shooters appreciate what Erik Cortina does to help.

 

[Dthomas3523]

First of all the kind of shooting we do?
WE, shoot a lot of different disciplines.
The guns WE own vary greatly, it's not all prs.

It's understandable that a high quality prs gun with finely tuned ammo may see less return on a tuner.

But that leaves all the rest of "WE" and a multitude of mixed equipment with various degrees of quality.

Some guns are limmited by magazine length and seating depth is limited by that and desired ammount of powder in the case.
Hell I heard some poor basterds don't even run a 24 inch barrel at times.

Like I said some of WE shooters appreciate what Eric Cortina does to help.

Ok, I’ll make it simple.

A tuner will *absolutely not* make a barrel shoot well that hand loading will not do. If you’re limited bag mag depth, you can seat the bullet further away from lands until it shoots. You’ll almost never find a mag length or powder fill that would prohibit your seating completely and make a tuner necessary.

Your statement was incorrect.

(And this forum is typically for practical shooting. So I’m not going to make an aterisk for every discipline when this forum heavily favors a single type.)

Also, I test things for Erik. So let’s not imply his work isn’t appreciated.

 

[kthomas]

First of all the kind of shooting we do?
WE, shoot a lot of different disciplines.
The guns WE own vary greatly, it's not all prs.

It's understandable that a high quality prs gun with finely tuned ammo may see less return on a tuner.

But that leaves all the rest of "WE" and a multitude of mixed equipment with various degrees of quality.

Some guns are limmited by magazine length and seating depth is limited by that and desired ammount of powder in the case.
Hell I heard some poor basterds don't even run a 24 inch barrel at times.

Like I said some of WE shooters appreciate what Eric Cortina does to help.

I hear mixed things about using a tuner to dial in otherwise less then satisfactory ammo/precision. I personally haven't tried it, so I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt on that. At some point, when I do have the opportunity to test factory ammo and a tuner, I would love to do so, for my own sake and knowledge.

I've been fascinated with tuners lately, with how popular they are starting to become on the "practical" side of the precision shooting sports. I've done a lot of reading on accurateshooter in regards to them, to see what BR and F-class guys are using them for. The opinions differ, and even how to use them differs. Hell, I even saw a world record BR shooter argue with a tuner maker on how to properly use a tuner. But mostly they seem to agree that a tuner isn't about adding precision to your load, but to use it to "widen the node" - to keep accuracy within extreme tolerances as temperatures and environmentals change throughout the match. Unlike what most of us shoot here (PRS/NRL/CD, etc), very small changes in precision can make a big difference for them.

There appears to be some anecdotal evidence that a tuner may be used to tighten groups with factory ammo, and I'm keeping an open mind to it, since I haven't played with that myself. The evidence appears to be few and far between, but as tuners get more popular in our community, I look forward to seeing more peoples experience with them, especially in regards to factory ammo, and better yet in a factory rifle.

For my purposes, I haven't found any perceived benefits to a tuner. I'm skeptical on what a tuner can add for the "practical" precision shooting disciplines, when you have a custom rifle, with a high quality barrel and proper reloads. My reloads shoot more then precise enough for any PRS match, and I didn't see any precision improvement with a tuner. The BR and F-class guys are not using them in most cases to tighten up groups, but to keep them extremely tight as the environmentals change throughout a match - the evidence for that is anecdotal and not even compelling, but some swear by it, including some world record setting shooters. I'm not sure if I'm a believer, but I also don't shoot BR or F-class.

I think most people are using custom rifles and reloads, so I really question if tuners are going to stay in the "practical" side (PRS, NRL, etc), or if they will be a passing fad. I have no skin in the game, so I'll be watching with interest with how it shakes it out. And I want to continue to see and hear other peoples experience with tuners - perhaps there's a benefit I haven't found, or maybe they do really work great with factory ammo. I find it all fascinating, and I love learning.

 

[Snuby642]

I do appreciate his work and videos.

I'm not the one saying his tuners won't help.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The evidence is definitely not “few and far between.”

 

[Dthomas3523]

I do appreciate his work and videos.

I'm not the one saying his tuners won't help.

I didn’t say they won’t help. I’m telling you that your suggestion they will help something that handloading won’t do.....is completely wrong.

Everything has context. Tuners work with the proper application. It can supplement/replace some aspects of loading. Never a fix for something you couldn’t already do.

 

[kthomas]

The evidence is definitely not “few and far between.”

I personally haven't been able to find much evidence, which is why I state that.

Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. I'm not saying they don't work for factory ammo, I haven't tested it so I can't say. But I haven't found much evidence beyond a few anecdotal reports here and there.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I personally haven't been able to find much evidence, which is why I state that.

Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. I'm not saying they don't work for factory ammo, I haven't tested it so I can't say. But I haven't found much evidence beyond a few anecdotal reports here and there.

Myself, @Rob01 and several others have posted our findings is most every thread you’ve said this in. There are videos all over YouTube showing tuners being run through their settings with repeatable group manipulation.

Also, you won’t find anything that isn’t anecdotal as any type of real testing would require a large amount of funding. And it wouldn’t make sense. The best thing that comes with proving it is literally nothing. Sales on tuners won’t change.

So you’re asking for a Red Herring as this data will never be available unless someone wants to spend a ton of cash for literally zero ROI.

 

[kthomas]

Myself, @Rob01 and several others have posted our findings is most every thread you’ve said this in. There are videos all over YouTube showing tuners being run through their settings with repeatable group manipulation.

Also, you won’t find anything that isn’t anecdotal as any type of real testing would require a large amount of funding. And it wouldn’t make sense. The best thing that comes with proving it is literally nothing. Sales on tuners won’t change.

So you’re asking for a Red Herring as this data will never be available unless someone wants to spend a ton of cash for literally zero ROI.

I totally understand the group manipulation, I saw it myself. As far as evidence that it works for factory ammo, yes there's a few people, including yourself, that have glowing anecdotal reports of using it with factory ammo with really good results. I find the results intriguing, and I look forward to hearing more reports on this as tuners become more and more popular. I'm curious to see if this is what most people see with tuners, or if the stars aligned for you and Rob. I'll keep an open mind when it comes to factory ammo, as it's something I haven't tested myself.

In my search for evidence for tuners + factory ammo, there's also anecdotal evidence to the contrary of what you and Rob are reporting. Here's a Snipers Hide article on the exact subject, and in conclusion it states:

I suspect that factory ammo, being tested and optimized for performance in a variety of different guns, may also be a bit less harmonically active. The net result of this is that you are unlikely to see noticeable improvement in a factory load by tuning it. The best course of action for a factory ammo user is still to try out a variety of different quality rounds in your rifle to determine what it has a taste for instead or trying to tune for the one you wish it would like best.

I'm not discounting what you and Rob have discovered, but so far the sample sizes for people using tuners with factory ammo is so small that it's statistically insignificant. There just doesn't appear to be that many people using tuners with factory ammo, not yet anyways. As more and more people use them for that purpose, it'll be really interesting to see what people report. Most evidence provided is also 3 round groups, which statistically is not very meaningful and compelling in itself.

As far as youtube videos go, perhaps I need to explore more of those. I've only watched a few of Erik Cortinas, he's an entertaining guy to watch, but even in his videos I wasn't swayed. I'll do some more digging around.

Anyways, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious. I think it would be really cool if more and more people see success in using tuners with factory ammo.

 

[Newbie2020]

I guess, based on the theory as to why tuners are effective, why they would work for myriad hand loads in multiple cartridges, but would NOT be effective with factory ammo.

Powder charge, pressure, barrel harmonics, bullet velocity, internal ballistics etc. All have the same net effect whether Hornady made it or I did in my garage.

Just trying to learn...

 

[Rob01]

Well just got my second ATS tuner in today and put it on my 6 Creed and took it to the range with some 108 ELD factory ammo and watched the groups come together when tuning. I do it to get better groups and not to try and make other people think they work. Not my job to convince anyone. Hell there are still people out that believe the earth is flat so it is what it is. LOL

 

[Snuby642]

It's not flat, there are some hills.

Texas named a whole new country after them.

 

[colodrew]

Here is my one and only experience with a tuner. Just picked up a new barrel in 6GT. Worked up a load I was pretty happy with. Barrel is still picking up speed so I’m not getting to wrapped up with my final load at this point. Barrel ha 100 rounds on it. Started shooting on setting 0. Adjusted the tuner 2 marks for each group. If the first two didn’t touch I moved on to the next setting. My best group was the first and last both on setting zero where I did my load development.

 

[kthomas]

Well just got my second ATS tuner in today and put it on my 6 Creed and took it to the range with some 108 ELD factory ammo and watched the groups come together when tuning. I do it to get better groups and not to try and make other people think they work. Not my job to convince anyone. Hell there are still people out that believe the earth is flat so it is what it is. LOL

Out of curiosity, do you get your barrels spun up with a reamer designed to shoot the factory ammo you are shooting? Or do you use a more general/SAAMI spec reamer and use the tuner to get the precision you want?

 

[Newbie2020]

Here is my one and only experience with a tuner. Just picked up a new barrel in 6GT. Worked up a load I was pretty happy with. Barrel is still picking up speed so I’m not getting to wrapped up with my final load at this point. Barrel ha 100 rounds on it. Started shooting on setting 0. Adjusted the tuner 2 marks for each group. If the first two didn’t touch I moved on to the next setting. My best group was the first and last both on setting zero where I did my load development.

This fits my bias: if incrementally increasing powder weight incrementally and proportionally changes chamber pressure and internal bullet velocity, the powder ladder test essentially “tuned” barrel harmonics to your chosen bullet weight and bullet seating depth.

The hidden value of the tuner is you don’t need the powder ladder test anymore; you simply pick a reasonable charge weight that gets you the mv you’re looking for, then dial in your tuner to tune barrel harmonics to the load.

 

[Quickoz]

Tuners control exit timing and dampen barrel vibration. They wont make a bad load shoot amazing. They don't fix poor loading practices. The one main issue I'm seeing is that people are doing tuner tests at 100m and testing at such short range can bring a whole lot of luck into the equation, very easy to get lucky shooting groups at short range in my opinion. I've done a test at 400m and then got back to 600 to 800m and its gone to crap. I had to re-tweak tuner to bring load vertical back down to acceptable. You also still need to make sure your ES is good. It will help a bad ES load a bit but not cancel it out completely.

This is just my opinion however.

 

[Rob01]

Out of curiosity, do you get your barrels spun up with a reamer designed to shoot the factory ammo you are shooting? Or do you use a more general/SAAMI spec reamer and use the tuner to get the precision you want?

Nope no special reamer. Both the 6.5 and 6 are saami spec chambers.

 

[Rob01]

Tuners control exit timing and dampen barrel vibration. They wont make a bad load shoot amazing. They don't fix poor loading practices. The one main issue I'm seeing is that people are doing tuner tests at 100m and testing at such short range can bring a whole lot of luck into the equation, very easy to get lucky shooting groups at short range in my opinion. I've done a test at 400m and then got back to 600 to 800m and its gone to crap. I had to re-tweak tuner to bring load vertical back down to acceptable. You also still need to make sure your ES is good. It will help a bad ES load a bit but not cancel it out completely.

This is just my opinion however.

I was worried about that too as the first time I used the tuner input it on a week before a match and only able to shoot at 100. Day before match at open range I wasn’t worried anymore when I was hitting steel out to 1000 and shot a three shot group on steel at 930 yards that the spotter said were almost touching.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Tuners control exit timing and dampen barrel vibration. They wont make a bad load shoot amazing. They don't fix poor loading practices. The one main issue I'm seeing is that people are doing tuner tests at 100m and testing at such short range can bring a whole lot of luck into the equation, very easy to get lucky shooting groups at short range in my opinion. I've done a test at 400m and then got back to 600 to 800m and its gone to crap. I had to re-tweak tuner to bring load vertical back down to acceptable. You also still need to make sure your ES is good. It will help a bad ES load a bit but not cancel it out completely.

This is just my opinion however.

This is not great information.

The only thing you really do at distances where your ES comes into play is that you start positively compensating. But this only works at the specific distance. Which is why you see 1k F class guys tuning at 1k yds. They are positively compensating for their ES.

Tuning at 100, ES had zero influence and therefore you are making the “cone” as small as possible for all ranges.

The reason your stuff went to crap from 400 to 800 is either A: your ES was large enough that you positively compensated for 400m and then it went back to normal shooting at 800m or B: the bullets you used were inconsistent from bullet to bullet. C: shooter error.

If your ES was acceptable and your bullets are consistent, it’s literally impossible for your groups to go from good at 400m to shit at 800m without the problem being the shooter.


This is a big issue. People don’t understand exactly what’s going on. They see something like “it fell apart from 400 to 800” without understanding what could actually fall apart.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, there’s no “luck” involved at one distance that isn’t there at another distance.

You can get lucky and shoot a .2moa group at 800yds just as easily as 100yds. This is all angular stuff guys. It doesn’t change the further you go.

 

[kthomas]

Nope no special reamer. Both the 6.5 and 6 are saami spec chambers.

Okay, this makes sense, and is pretty damn cool if the results you and Dthomas are seeing are repeatable amongst a large sample size. This is where I see tuners being most valuable, in our sport, is when you can't get the ammo tuned to your gun, if in fact this is a repeatable "phenomenon". Personally I would love to try it out, and I look forward to hearing more and more reviews that have the same findings as what you guys are reporting.

For our purposes ("practical" style shooting events), I'm guessing the return on a tuner is less when you have a chamber designed for your ammo (even factory), and even less so when you have a custom chamber + reloads. But I get it, not everyone wants to reload, and you can't always have a chamber optimized for your ammo.

This fits my bias: if incrementally increasing powder weight incrementally and proportionally changes chamber pressure and internal bullet velocity, the powder ladder test essentially “tuned” barrel harmonics to your chosen bullet weight and bullet seating depth.

The hidden value of the tuner is you don’t need the powder ladder test anymore; you simply pick a reasonable charge weight that gets you the mv you’re looking for, then dial in your tuner to tune barrel harmonics to the load.

This is where I am going to play devils advocate. If you have the ability to make reloads that shoot well out of your gun, I don't see why you would instead choose to put a device on the end of the muzzle, that if disturbed, ends up changing your group size and POI. Our shooting discipline is not friendly to guns, and having a single point of failure that can have such a dramatic effect, could make for an ugly time at a match.

If you reload your own ammo, and it shoots well, the ammo isn't all of a sudden not going to shoot well in the middle of the match. Well, unless you're shooting a 6 creedmoor and torched the throat. Also, with my admittedly short time with a tuner, I don't see developing a load with a tuner being any quicker then developing a load the normal way. I will also say this goes against what those who shoot with tuners in BR and F-class say. The tuner does not replace proper load development.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Okay, this makes sense, and is pretty damn cool if the results you and Dthomas are seeing are repeatable amongst a large sample size. This is where I see tuners being most valuable, in our sport, is when you can't get the ammo tuned to your gun, if in fact this is a repeatable "phenomenon". Personally I would love to try it out, and I look forward to hearing more and more reviews that have the same findings as what you guys are reporting.

For our purposes ("practical" style shooting events), I'm guessing the return on a tuner is less when you have a chamber designed for your ammo (even factory), and even less so when you have a custom chamber + reloads. But I get it, not everyone wants to reload, and you can't always have a chamber optimized for your ammo.



This is where I am going to play devils advocate. If you have the ability to make reloads that shoot well out of your gun, I don't see why you would instead choose to put a device on the end of the muzzle, that if disturbed, ends up changing your group size and POI. Our shooting discipline is not friendly to guns, and having a single point of failure that can have such a dramatic effect, could make for an ugly time at a match.

If you reload your own ammo, and it shoots well, the ammo isn't all of a sudden not going to shoot well in the middle of the match. Well, unless you're shooting a 6 creedmoor and torched the throat. Also, with my admittedly short time with a tuner, I don't see developing a load with a tuner being any quicker then developing a load the normal way. I will also say this goes against what those who shoot with tuners in BR and F-class say. The tuner does not replace proper load development.

I have never had mine come loose. Just like I’ve never had a brake come loose. But I check all my stuff regularly. Which I think everyone should do,

I replace seating depth testing with tuner as I don’t have a range very close to do testing. I don’t have an F class requirement of tuner + seating......I only need one or the other. So I choose the tuner. But that’s just a personal choice.

 

[kthomas]

This is a big issue. People don’t understand exactly what’s going on. They see something like “it fell apart from 400 to 800” without understanding what could actually fall apart.

This is where I see adding a tuner to the equation leading to more confusion and mistakes from "beginners" (for lack of a better term). It's another variable to change, and when you don't already have a good grasp of internal and external ballistics, I can see where a tuner could potentially lead people down the wrong rabbit holes when things are seemingly not adding up down range.

This is exactly why Alex Wheeler recommends to his BR shooters to shoot out a barrel or two in competition without a tuner, before moving on to a tuner. Having a good foundation and understanding on how your ammo is behaving, how changes in powder charge, seating depth, etc effect what's happening down range, before you add another variable to that equation.

 

[kthomas]

I have never had mine come loose. Just like I’ve never had a brake come loose. But I check all my stuff regularly. Which I think everyone should do,

I replace seating depth testing with tuner as I don’t have a range very close to do testing. I don’t have an F class requirement of tuner + seating......I only need one or the other. So I choose the tuner. But that’s just a personal choice.

I'm admittedly a bit paranoid about that stuff. I don't like single points of failure, I also hate set screws. I make sure my muzzle brake is tight at the beginning of every stage I shoot, but I do see more potential for mishap with a tuner. But if you stay on top of it, it shouldn't be an issue, as you point out.

And hey, if it works, it works. Who am I to say that something is wrong when it's clearly working for the person that's using it.

 

[BFuller]

I've got some Copper Creek and Hendershot’s ammo on hand for the 300PRC build I am waiting on. I may give a tuner a try while using that stuff, while I wait to find some primers and powder to reload for it.

 

[Rob01]

Okay, this makes sense, and is pretty damn cool if the results you and Dthomas are seeing are repeatable amongst a large sample size. This is where I see tuners being most valuable, in our sport, is when you can't get the ammo tuned to your gun, if in fact this is a repeatable "phenomenon". Personally I would love to try it out, and I look forward to hearing more and more reviews that have the same findings as what you guys are reporting.

For our purposes ("practical" style shooting events), I'm guessing the return on a tuner is less when you have a chamber designed for your ammo (even factory), and even less so when you have a custom chamber + reloads. But I get it, not everyone wants to reload, and you can't always have a chamber optimized for your ammo.



This is where I am going to play devils advocate. If you have the ability to make reloads that shoot well out of your gun, I don't see why you would instead choose to put a device on the end of the muzzle, that if disturbed, ends up changing your group size and POI. Our shooting discipline is not friendly to guns, and having a single point of failure that can have such a dramatic effect, could make for an ugly time at a match.

If you reload your own ammo, and it shoots well, the ammo isn't all of a sudden not going to shoot well in the middle of the match. Well, unless you're shooting a 6 creedmoor and torched the throat. Also, with my admittedly short time with a tuner, I don't see developing a load with a tuner being any quicker then developing a load the normal way. I will also say this goes against what those who shoot with tuners in BR and F-class say. The tuner does not replace proper load development.

If you had a special chamber it wouldn’t make a difference. Just that you might be better to start but then in the end be able to tune a little tighter or maybe you might find you don’t need a tuner if you put that much time into developing a load. But then you can use it for finer adjustments in the end and not have to shoot more test ammo.

You mean a device like a brake or a suppressor? Come on man. You don’t like or want to use a tuner until you have 5 million people giving you all sorts of data points to make your decision but nit picking BS when there is clear info that they work is just being argumentative at best. Don’t want one? Don’t buy one. Simple.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is where I see adding a tuner to the equation leading to more confusion and mistakes from "beginners" (for lack of a better term). It's another variable to change, and when you don't already have a good grasp of internal and external ballistics, I can see where a tuner could potentially lead people down the wrong rabbit holes when things are seemingly not adding up down range.

This is exactly why Alex Wheeler recommends to his BR shooters to shoot out a barrel or two in competition without a tuner, before moving on to a tuner. Having a good foundation and understanding on how your ammo is behaving, how changes in powder charge, seating depth, etc effect what's happening down range, before you add another variable to that equation.

Completely agree.

Anytime someone says a load “falls apart” it means they don’t have a grasp on what’s actually going on.

There’s only a few things going on (powder, bullet, etc). So it’s fairly easy to isolate the issue with modern equipment.

 

[Newbie2020]

And the dirty little secret no one talks about is that factory match ammo will shoot half moa out of any quality barrel regardless of chamber spec and without tuning seating depth.

A tuner might bring that down to 3/8” or even 1/4” in a super rifle. But half moa regardless of jump means that consistent cartridge mfg practices are worth more than barrel harmonics.

 

[kthomas]

If you had a special chamber it wouldn’t make a difference. Just that you might be better to start but then in the end be able to tune a little tighter or maybe you might find you don’t need a tuner if you put that much time into developing a load. But then you can use it for finer adjustments in the end and not have to shoot more test ammo.

You mean a device like a brake or a suppressor? Come on man. You don’t like or want to use a tuner until you have 5 million people giving you all sorts of data points to make your decision but nit picking BS when there is clear info that they work is just being argumentative at best. Don’t want one? Don’t buy one. Simple.

You're absolutely right, brakes and suppressors absolutely can and do cause people grief at matches. There's a reason why I check the tightness of my muzzle device before every stage - I had an APA brake that was very prone to coming loose. Came loose on a stage once, never again. There's a bit more to a tuner then there is a muzzle brake or suppressor though. Not only do you have to make sure that the device itself is tight on the barrel threads, but that the set screws (or whatever retaining device it uses), is also tight. It's just another layer that you have to control and be aware of. And that layer was designed to change your POI and group size.

There's certainly nuances and potential downsides to a tuner. I think it would behoove those that are going to get into the tuner game to understand all the potential benefits along with the potential downsides. I'm not completely against tuners, by no means. If they work for you, then great. I wish all these tuner companies much success. I'm just trying to explore them in an objective and critical manner, and trying to decide for myself if they make much sense or not for our discipline.

And I already have a tuner + muzzle break combo. I tried it out for myself. It doesn't provide me any benefit in my comp gun, which has a custom chamber and reloads tailored to it. I'm not waiting for 5 million+ reviews. I am genuinely curious if people continue to see success with factory ammo and tuners, I think it's pretty fascinating. I'm also curious to see if this is a technology that stays around in PRS and grows in popularity, or it fades out like many of the other gadgets that come and go.

 

[BFuller]

You're absolutely right, brakes and suppressors absolutely can and do cause people grief at matches. There's a reason why I check the tightness of my muzzle device before every stage - I had an APA brake that was very prone to coming loose. Came loose on a stage once, never again. There's a bit more to a tuner then there is a muzzle brake or suppressor though. Not only do you have to make sure that the device itself is tight on the barrel threads, but that the set screws (or whatever retaining device it uses), is also tight. It's just another layer that you have to control and be aware of. And that layer was designed to change your POI and group size.

There's certainly nuances and potential downsides to a tuner. I think it would behoove those that are going to get into the tuner game to understand all the potential benefits along with the potential downsides. I'm not completely against tuners, by no means. If they work for you, then great. I wish all these tuner companies much success. I'm just trying to explore them in an objective and critical manner, and trying to decide for myself if they make much sense or not for our discipline.

And I already have a tuner + muzzle break combo. I tried it out for myself. It doesn't provide me any benefit in my comp gun, which has a custom chamber and reloads tailored to it. I'm not waiting for 5 million+ reviews. I am genuinely curious if people continue to see success with factory ammo and tuners, I think it's pretty fascinating. I'm also curious to see if this is a technology that stays around in PRS and grows in popularity, or it fades out like many of the other gadgets that come and go.

Just curious, can the same effect as your custom chamber with hand loads be achieved with once fired brass and a custom resizing die, using any concentric chamber? I guess what I'm asking is what's different in the custom chamber specs the leads to an inherent increase in accuracy?

 

[kthomas]

Just curious, can the same effect as your custom chamber with hand loads be achieved with once fired brass and a custom resizing die, using any concentric chamber? I guess what I'm asking is what's different in the custom chamber specs the leads to an inherent increase in accuracy?

There's a lot of nuances to internal ballistics and what makes a rifle precise. That in itself is a whole discussion worthy of it's own thread.

 

[BFuller]

There's a lot of nuances to internal ballistics and what makes a rifle precise. That in itself is a whole discussion worthy of it's own thread.

I agree that the subject is broad and deep, but I'm asking very specifically what is difference in your custom chamber spec as compared to SAAMI and why does that difference lead inherently to more accuracy?

 

[Newbie2020]

As I learned from @Dthomas3523 there's BR and F-class precision and then there’s PRS-level precision. A guy can burn a lot of time and powder chasing quarter moa when we don’t need it.

 

[Snuby642]

Muzzle devices coming loose?
Rocket science.

No,

 

[kthomas]

I agree that the subject is broad and deep, but I'm asking very specifically what is difference in your custom chamber spec as compared to SAAMI and why does that difference lead inherently to more accuracy?

There is no saami spec for 6BRA, which is what I'm shooting. I had to make my own reamer print at the time of getting my barrel spun up for it, as 6BRA at that time was mostly being used in benchrest (tight necks galore), not so much in PRS.

As far as shooting a SAAMI spec chamber versus a "custom" chamber, certain factory ammo may or may not like that SAAMI chamber. One big factor can be how much the bullet is jumped - some bullets are very particular about this, and the bullet seating depth from the factory just may not jive with a regular SAAMI spec chamber. With a "custom" chamber, you can control aspects like freebore, which determines how much "jump" the bullet has to the lands. There's more nuances to it then that, and there's more knowledgeable people on here then myself who are better served to speak on the topic. But this is one aspect of what makes a rifle precise, and why bullet seating depth is part of a load workup when reloading.

I think this is where Rob01 and Dthomas are seeing benefits with the tuner. The freebore of your chamber is what it is once you have your rifle/barrel, and if you are shooting factory ammo, the bullet seating depth is what it is from the factory (unless you go through the hassle of reseating the bullets, but why even shoot factory ammo at that point). If they don't get along, there's nothing you can do without major intervention - unless you use a tuner. They are seeing that the performance can be optimized to be more satisfactory in these conditions, if you make slight adjustments to the barrels harmonics (tuner). Rather then tuning the ammo to the gun, you are tuning the gun to the ammo, in essence.