Electric service question

[Bryan W M]

It will be about 100ft run from the meter to the shop . Found out the transformer is 10 kw that we have now we are already over loading it . They will be putting in a 25 .
The wires from the meter to the house will be / are 4/0 They can’t tell me what to use but, The guy from the power company hinted to use the same.

 

[Landon4]

The wire and conduit will probably be your biggest cost it’s insane how much that stuff has gone up over the last couple years.

 

[Ronws]

You never installed a 600Amp piece of switchgear. You might have installed a 600amp switchboard or large panelboard, but you didn't install switchgear! Switchgear is about $25K per cubicle, the breakers are about $25K each. Those breakers are draw-out style and rated for 65-100KA of fault current.

Sorry, I usually try to avoid these electrical threads, as the asinine info in them drives me nuts, and I hate arguing on the internet.

Well, then, the whole company I worked for in 2008 on the big high school in Prosper was ignorant. We call called it switch gear. Main building was 5,000 amps athletic building was 2,000 amps.

But please, continue with the not commenting.

 

[n2ishun]

You're still not going to get close to 200amps with that!

Dryer = 6KW
Welder = 11kw
Microwave = 1.5kw
Air compressor (1hp)= 2KW

I come up with 31.5KW. 48KW - 31.5KW = 16.5KW left. 16.5KW/240V= 68.75 amps left. The reality is, that the FLA/KW info on all appliances is based on the very, very, very worse case condition, so you're really about 1/2 of what is published. So, you're still using only about 15KW. 15KW/240V = 62.5amp, a far stretch from 200amps. The worse case condition on a residential service is when you start motor loads at the exact same time, which never happens! Motor loads pull 8-12X the FLA on start up. That is why they have capacitors in them, give the little extra push when needed.

No residential home/shop is going to use 200amps, just not gonna happen! If you do trip a main, it will be once or maybe twice in a life time. However, contractors love to spend your money!

Now, if you have super big machines in your shop, probably a different story. Again, one man can only operate so many machines at one time.

There is a reason the utility company only puts a 15-25KW transformer on your pole or in the little pedestal in your yard.

Why do people profess to know what a *device* is consuming w/o measuring the actual device ?

How long is the wire run to that device ?
What gauge wire ?
How many junctions on that line ?
Why do you think measuring in watts is better than amps ?
Do you know what a"joule" is ?

Yea, just like that.

 

[chevy_man]

Well, then, the whole company I worked for in 2008 on the big high school in Prosper was ignorant. We call called it switch gear. Main building was 5,000 amps athletic building was 2,000 amps.

But please, continue with the not commenting.

He's just being pedantic. He's also likely in the union and will refer to himself as an industrial electrician who knows nothing about houses or even much commercial.

 

[Bullfrog08]

He's just being pedantic. He's also likely in the union and will refer to himself as an industrial electrician who knows nothing about houses or even much commercial.

Naw, he's a licensed electrical engineer, and has been doing it for 26 years, but please educate me! I love learning stuff! Teach me something today!

 

[Bullfrog08]

Well, then, the whole company I worked for in 2008 on the big high school in Prosper was ignorant. We call called it switch gear. Main building was 5,000 amps athletic building was 2,000 amps.

But please, continue with the not commenting.

Send me some pictures of your 600amp switchgear.....PLEASE! Google switchgear and switchboard. It's ok to educate yourself without getting mad or letting your ego get to you.

5,000amps, probably was switchgear, but 600amps, NOPE!

Why, oh why do I enter these discussions..........My dick is not going to grow any and egos are always going to remain strong.

Carry on!

 

[Ronws]

He's just being pedantic. He's also likely in the union and will refer to himself as an industrial electrician who knows nothing about houses or even much commercial.

Possibly. I did have to make a numerical correction to my post. The house I mentioned was 1600 amps, not 600. Fat fingers.

Plenty of ways to describe something.

I knew a guy who learned to call a bubble level a whiskey stick. Granted, it is "ackshually" de-natured alcohol in there but it everyone knew what it was.

Diagonal cutters are dikes. Any groove joint plier is called a Channel Loc, which is a brand name.

Any lineman's pliers are called Kleins, which is a brand name.

We use Pennunion S-6 split bolt connectors for some of our work and we still call them Kearnies, from the brand name Kearney.

As for the "switchgear" I have built, I am speaking the huge high school in Prosper, Texas that sits on 64 acres. In the main building is 5,000 amps. Two housekeeping pads. One had a 3 section for 3,000 amps, the other had a 2 section for 2,000 amps.

I drove the skytrack and unloaded them from the truck and set them in the main electrical room. As well as the 2,000 amp gear in the main electrical room of the separate athletic building.

I got my 1 ton chain hoist and chains and 3 in rigid to put up in the trusses and light and swing each piece into place, mostly by myself.

I bolted the cabinets together. I installed the buss bar splices between each section with my torque wrench. It is my signature on the torque logs, which have to be filled out to keep the (Square D) warranty.

I used the company's megger (megahom tester for the autistic) and made a meg log to insure the integrity of the insulation on the service entrance conductors from the Oncor transformer to the gear. It is my signature on the megger logs that had to be turned into the builder and the architect and the school district.

I did all the terminations with a torque log on those lugs and signed that.

I, alone, go in on the day that the transformer is energized. And I use the handle that loads the spring by pumping it a number of times and hit the release button. It slams the blades into contact.

So, I know a one or two things about building and connecting "switchgear."

 

[Ronws]

Send me some pictures of your 600amp switchgear.....PLEASE! Google switchgear and switchboard. It's ok to educate yourself without getting mad or letting your ego get to you.

5,000amps, probably was switchgear, but 600amps, NOPE!

Why, oh why do I enter these discussions..........My dick is not going to grow any and egos are always going to remain strong.

Carry on!

I went back and made a numerical correction that was a typo. It was 1600 amps.

I can't help you about your penis.

 

[missed]

Typically the utilities will run (1) 350mcm aluminum to a 320 or 400a service. Each run to the house from the load side of the breaker will be 3/0 copper or 4/0 aluminum without accounting for distance. 25kva transformer is 104 amps on the secondary continuously at a certain temperature rise (usually 40 degrees C)

 

[Bullfrog08]

I went back and made a numerical correction that was a typo. It was 1600 amps.

I can't help you about your penis.

So are we friends again?

 

[Bullfrog08]

Most times MDPs are referred to as switchgear.

So an AR is an Assault Rifle then?

 

[hollowoutadime]

Square D QO is about the gold standard for residential panels.

I'd spend the $1200.

The plug on neutral is nice, very clean installing their combo GFCI/ARC fault breakers. You can often find the breakers for about $30 -$35 (new) on ebay. Very expensive from HomeDepot. I have good luck with them and near zero nuisance tripping. Installed about 60 of them. Ask an electrician, I did not install them on my smoke detector or refrigeration circuits.

 

[Ronws]

So are we friends again?

Sure. And we did not build the service on that house. But it several panelboard around the property and we were there to do other work that needed electrical power.

But I searched, anyway, just to be fair.

Danged if I didn't find a switch gear that is rated for 600 amps.

But I do appreciate accuracy, though.

And thanks for giving a damn, seriously.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Separate 100A 1PH service for my shop that is stepped down from 3PH from an irrigation well. Run 240v welders and other equipment all the time as well lighting and cooling. Never had an issue. Since its a single person shop, I am only running one piece of equipment at a time. Where I need 3PH (lathe) use a VFD.

 

[chevy_man]

So an AR is an Assault Rifle then?

It can be.

When I need a panel with a 600+ amp main, and multiple 200A large case breakers I give my suppliers the specs and they order me switchgear.

Or do I need to refer to it as low voltage switchgear when it's only 600V rated?

 

[ColbyLang]

The copper wire cost gonna eat you alive at 100’ times 3

 

[Kinetic Moose]

Ok so got a hard number from the power company. The 200 amp meter with two breakers will be free. They said can only have 100amp service off it for the shop.

The 400amp service 2 200 amp breakers installed is 1200 .
I’m leaning this way.
The house is all 12 wire on basic circuits.
You add in the dryer, electric heat, stove , microwave, lights, air compressor welding.
I have 3 boys and another kid in the oven so it won’t be just me in the shop .

For 1200 I think it’s a good investment for long term use of my place.

Ok I keep seeing you guys say square D for the panel?? @Kinetic Moose
Is there a specific panel you would recommend I’ll be buying from Lowe’s .

So food for thought..

since you're changing the meter this is what I would suggest.

Put in a 400 amp can, then put in a 400 amp transfer switch for a generator, this give you two disconnects rated 200 amps each, then you have a legal disconnect, and a double feed that allows you to service things and looks like this

as far as the panel, code says you have to have a a ground rod system at your garage, and you will need to 4 wire the two panels, depending on the AHJ or your inspector, either way it's a good thing to do for safety. beyond that, type 1 surge protection, and the automatic transfer switch will act as a legal disconnection means and the added bonus is you can run anything off of a generator, just drop a 50 amp inlet out of the bottom and BOOM, bobs, your uncle.

then trench in your 2" pipe to your shed and bring it up into the back of a panel, I would do a 42 space QO panel with a 200 amp main, drive 3 ground rods, or if you haven't poured the concrete yet do a UFER ground system which is the best you can get, just do it properly with a 5/8'ths rebar if you can swing it, makes for a safe and reliable system especially if you do any HF welding.(TIG) then start wiring, I'd use MC and deep junction boxes with #12 stranded wire, except for the compressors, and welders etc, then run #4 THHN or xhhw etc. something 90C rated.

that will serve you for life, and the auto transfer is a symphony, work good last long time.

as for the rest, details, if you don't know, hire someone that does, the stuff I've fixed from do it yourself YouTube educated people is straight up scary, and ranges from no grounds on pools, with overheated wire nuts, to building that fry you every time you turn a light on because who needs ground.(that hurt)

good luck and you can call if you get deep into it. as far as the power company costs, 1200 isn't bad, but for what you get and that overall cost, this setup is peanuts as well

 

[Ronws]

So food for thought..

since you're changing the meter this is what I would suggest.

Put in a 400 amp can, then put in a 400 amp transfer switch for a generator, this give you two disconnects rated 200 amps each, then you have a legal disconnect, and a double feed that allows you to service things and looks like this

View attachment 8550236

as far as the panel, code says you have to have a a ground rod system at your garage, and you will need to 4 wire the two panels, depending on the AHJ or your inspector, either way it's a good thing to do for safety. beyond that, type 1 surge protection, and the automatic transfer switch will act as a legal disconnection means and the added bonus is you can run anything off of a generator, just drop a 50 amp inlet out of the bottom and BOOM, bobs, your uncle.

then trench in your 2" pipe to your shed and bring it up into the back of a panel, I would do a 42 space QO panel with a 200 amp main, drive 3 ground rods, or if you haven't poured the concrete yet do a UFER ground system which is the best you can get, just do it properly with a 5/8'ths rebar if you can swing it, makes for a safe and reliable system especially if you do any HF welding.(TIG) then start wiring, I'd use MC and deep junction boxes with #12 stranded wire, except for the compressors, and welders etc, then run #4 THHN or xhhw etc. something 90C rated.

that will serve you for life, and the auto transfer is a symphony, work good last long time.

as for the rest, details, if you don't know, hire someone that does, the stuff I've fixed from do it yourself YouTube educated people is straight up scary, and ranges from no grounds on pools, with overheated wire nuts, to building that fry you every time you turn a light on because who needs ground.(that hurt)

good luck and you can call if you get deep into it. as far as the power company costs, 1200 isn't bad, but for what you get and that overall cost, this setup is peanuts as well

And I have seen numerous houses where there is a 320 MB and two discreet 200 amp disconnects feeding panels in the house, often in interior walls. Our work is outside and we need power outside. So, there has been a number of times we have changed a disconnect to a feed-through disconnect (looks like a disconnect for a mobile home) with buss bars and breaker spaces in it and feed-through lugs to go to whichever panel.

And I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Stupid idiotic building codes around here now say if you get your electrical panel changed by a proper professional they have to put it all on the outside walls in the rain and weather and such.

So doing it yourself is kind of a must if you don't want all that stupidity of your breaker box being in the rain and having to spend huge money because wires weren't designed to be long enough to go outside instead of in the garage which is way better.

Not to mention now somebody can hop your fence or such and go mess with all your power.

 

[missed]

Stupid idiotic building codes around here now say if you get your electrical panel changed by a proper professional they have to put it all on the outside walls in the rain and weather and such.

So doing it yourself is kind of a must if you don't want all that stupidity of your breaker box being in the rain and having to spend huge money because wires weren't designed to be long enough to go outside instead of in the garage which is way better.

Not to mention now somebody can hop your fence or such and go mess with all your power.

You just need a means of disconnect accessible by the utility company, fire department, FBi... This has been code for a long time, just not enforced. The whole load center doesn't have to be outside, just one breaker/disconnect. We have a lock on ours along with an alarm contact on the door for it.

 

[W54/XM-388]

You just need a means of disconnect accessible by the utility company, fire department, FBi... This has been code for a long time, just not enforced. The whole load center doesn't have to be outside, just one breaker/disconnect. We have a lock on ours along with an alarm contact on the door for it.

I guess the whole yanking the meter out of it's socket isn't good enough for them?

I might have one put outside anyways before long as I want to have a generator hookup for the house and would like the extra crazy type of lockout where you have one input side from the generator, one from the utility and then your house load can connect to only one of those two with a nice big lever so nobody has to worry about anything.

 

[missed]

I guess the whole yanking the meter out of it's socket isn't good enough for them?

I might have one put outside anyways before long as I want to have a generator hookup for the house and would like the extra crazy type of lockout where you have one input side from the generator, one from the utility and then your house load can connect to only one of those two with a nice big lever so nobody has to worry about anything.

Pulling meters under load is not ideal, it's more for emergency response so they can kill power.
Or for the utility companies to leave the breaker open after a power restoration. I used to work for a co-op that was blamed for burning a trailer house down when they restored power to it with nobody home.

We have our 2 200a disconnects at the meter that are secured, then the rest of the panels and the generator panel and transfer switch are inside buildings. All the loads that need to be powered from the generator are in there own separate panel

 

[chevy_man]

I guess the whole yanking the meter out of it's socket isn't good enough for them?

I might have one put outside anyways before long as I want to have a generator hookup for the house and would like the extra crazy type of lockout where you have one input side from the generator, one from the utility and then your house load can connect to only one of those two with a nice big lever so nobody has to worry about anything.

Fire fighters are not going to pull a meter or wait for the linemen. They should be able to show up and kill power while they start putting your house out.


Safety is all about what if, not normal.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Fire fighters are not going to pull a meter or wait for the linemen. They should be able to show up and kill power while they start putting your house out.


Safety is all about what if, not normal.

A several hundred thousand houses built all around here for the past couple decades say otherwise.

 

[chevy_man]

A several hundred thousand houses built all around here for the past couple decades say otherwise.

Well, your inspectors haven't been doing their job for 20+ years that it's been code....

 

[Kinetic Moose]

No disconnect is needed if the service is located back to back with the panel on the inside wall,,, they do it alot around here, just to save a buck
230.70 A1, 2020NEC code.

 

[Ronws]

@Kinetic Moose is right, of course. If the panel is back to back from the meter base, then the main breaker is the first means of disconnect. This is also where you have the green bonding bolt in the panel to bond neutral to ground for a proper ground fault current path.

When we have changed a disconnect to a feed through, we turn off both disconnects, then remove the meter. Do our thing. Most times, it is not requiring a meter move or service ampacity change. We only have to tell Oncor if we accidentally damaged the little wire seal they use to have.

Edited to add: the only time I have seen needing to move the electrical main panel to outside is if the original was in a closet (legal at one time,) and now the new work can't be done because of inaccessibility.

Even mo' better-er if it is Federal Pacific. We do not terminate any of our new circuits in a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel. We will estimate and give a price to change that to a panel. If it is in a closet, we will install new one outside and treat the old one as a junction box.

And we welcome homeowners to seek other bids.