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Night Vision EOTECH CLIP ON THERMALS ( Full details)
- Thread starter DownRangeThermal
- Start date
What I don't understand is the relationship between the thermal sensor resolution and the rear screen resolution. Especially for a clip-on.
For example, the XELR has a 1280 rear screen whereas the Utc-xii has I believe a 600-800 rear screen, but the quality appears to be just as good or better. Then I see others like the Swarovski TM 35 advertising a 2560 res rear screen.
Warning! Very crude explanation to follow. I probably won't get the details exact.
For example. There are two different models of the Super Yoter-C out there. Both have the same FOV and 1280 displays but the first model only uses 640 of the available display pixels. (The x-ELR does the same thing) So one pixel in on the front end equals 1 pixel out on the rear end. The second model uses the entire 1280 display so 1 pixel in equals 2 pixels in width out.
If the front objective magnifies the image by 3x with a 640 display, the rear lens DE-magnifies the image by 3x to achieve unity so that the dials and holds in the day scope are accurate. But if you use a full 1280 rear display the image is essentially DIGITALLY magnified again by 2x in addition to the original 3x. Now your rear lens needs to DE-magnify it by 6x to achieve unity.
What that does is provide an image where the pixels are extremely compressed and it doesn't look nearly as pixelated when you optically zoom the day scope.
I've owned both models of the Yoter and will attest that the use of the full 1280 display increased the scopes ability to handle magnification by a significant amount.
The xELR is probably a bad example because I don’t believe it actually uses the entire screen, but only a 640x subset of it. Others that do use their whole screen can benefit from up-rezzing depending on their algorithms to do so. Software sharpening and upscaling varies pretty widely between units, so it’s definitely more than just the specs that play into usable image quality. Lotta stuff on the software side that’s way over my head. Would love to see more image recognition beyond just “make it red if it’s over this heat level”.
Agree with jwramp. The XELR has a 1280 screen but only uses 640 pixels of it (even the Gen 2 does this in clip-on mode).
My suspicion for the Theon units is that the pixel size is what benefits from this odd-sounding choice. I don’t think they make the screen themselves; it’s probably purchased from a OEM supplier somewhere. Let’s say the screen in the eyepiece has to be 1/2” wide to fit the unit and eyepiece. If you use a 1280 screen there, the individual screen pixels will be half the size of those on a 1/2” wide 640 screen, which will allow the user to apply higher magnification with the day optic before the image looks grainy. You could accomplish this with eyepiece demagnification but that would require double the demag, which would kill any hope of the unit having a functional stand-alone mode (the screen would look absolutely tiny to the user’s naked eye). It also gives you some margin to perform factory calibration of the unit by shifting the 640 pixel image around on the 1280 pixel screen.
My suspicion for the Theon units is that the pixel size is what benefits from this odd-sounding choice. I don’t think they make the screen themselves; it’s probably purchased from a OEM supplier somewhere. Let’s say the screen in the eyepiece has to be 1/2” wide to fit the unit and eyepiece. If you use a 1280 screen there, the individual screen pixels will be half the size of those on a 1/2” wide 640 screen, which will allow the user to apply higher magnification with the day optic before the image looks grainy. You could accomplish this with eyepiece demagnification but that would require double the demag, which would kill any hope of the unit having a functional stand-alone mode (the screen would look absolutely tiny to the user’s naked eye). It also gives you some margin to perform factory calibration of the unit by shifting the 640 pixel image around on the 1280 pixel screen.
Unfortunately even with the higher pixel count on the screen the ELR cannot adjust the screen position electronically like the Trijicon UTCxii can.
Sure it can. You and I can’t but I was expressly referring to factory calibration procedures.
Agreed. Theon nailed the concept by making actual collimation instead of screen zeroing, but between mine changing, and reports of some of them being a little off, I’m left waiting for something better. UTC-X with 10 year warranty and Theon pricing would have my money tomorrow.
Different guns/different optics and or optical planes can lead to slight shifts in POI. You could just compensate and dial but being able to adjust the screen position electronically on an X/Y axis fixes that.
I've been using this for everything except the PVS-27, which will not fit but has it's own case anyway.
Jelly Roll
Jelly Roll
Not warm and fuzzy at all. I am still waiting for mine to be repaired and sent back to me. 4 months into this and no one at EoTech seems to be able to give me information on where my optic even is or how much longer it will be. Total S-show.
EDIT: Update - Now their telling me 8-10 months. So its gone from getting a new unit shipped out asap to replace the defective one to saying 8-10 months. WOW!
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Am I understanding this correctly that this thing doesn't need to be zeroed? Manual says if day optic is zeroed you should be good to go.
Everyone should. They have now gone dark and will not communicate. Emails have now gone unanswered for 3 weeks. Its pointless calling as the people answering the phones have no idea the status of my RMA and can not communicate back with details. Instead, they tell me the person in charge will get back with me, but this hasn‘t happened. Worst customer service I have ever experienced. They have no clue what they are doing over at EoTech.
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I'll bring this thread up to the eotech guys. On the units we have the exclusive on( ELR , SR mk2, ELR mk2) we held units back for replacement to avoid the long waits.
Contact Theon directly. I reached out to them through their website when I needed help and their US director emailed me back with some EoTech leadership person CCed.
So how long did it take for them to respond and when can you expect your new unit?
Personally I think this is stupid. Build a badass clipon and commit to it. The need for it to act as a stand-alone should be a non-issue. This is how you end up with a Jack of all trades, master of none.
Three weeks to the day after 3 emails from me and a couple more from Strictly Offensive Kit who assisted in getting this off dead center. Do not have an eta. Was told tracking will be sent to me once the replacement order is completed and ready to be shipped. Not out of the woods yet but progress is good.
Looking like June July timeframe....always a moving target unfortunately.Great. So, when are those SR mk2s coming in?
I eventually received a new unit and just got done testing this one out. It’s just as bad as the other unit. Collimation is off by about 4 MOA. Consistently shoots 4 MOA left.
can you post a pic of your setup. Have you tested on another rifle to rule out an interface mounting issue? Just went and tested mine after 500 rounds and it is within .1 mrad of my daytime zero still.
Not a bad idea, but unlikely to yield different results.
My testing found these units were VERY tolerant of mounting misalignment (both angle and height differences).
Once “right” they tend to be right on each gun regardless of minor differences in setup. That’s obviously a testament to some good design choices. Now if they can figure out quality control and customer service…
I would assume the factory has to calibrate the collimation via the menu internally (like the trijicon utcxii). If only someone could figure out the secret button combination to allow this calibration to be changed.
I tried on two different rifles. First was a 16” inch 5.56 with NXS 2.5-10x24 in a Nightforce unimount 1.5 optic height and the other was a 11.3 inch 300 HAM’r with an ACOG w/ Geissele mount. The POI shift was nearly identical between the two guns.
Serial number is different. It was definitely the first I checked when I received it. The previous unit shifted toward 1 o‘clock from POA. This new one shifts towards 10 o’clock from POA.
What have they said about this?
Fine, within spec...Or you are hesitant to send unit for another cpl months and no guarantee of getting better?
Fine, within spec...Or you are hesitant to send unit for another cpl months and no guarantee of getting better?
They have not responded back to my email. I plan on sending this one back as well and requesting another unit be sent to me.
We need everyone with LRs and ELRs to test how much shift they are seeing. I am genuinely curious to know how many are out there, and what percentage of them are out of spec. Mine is .1 mrad to the right from my day optics zero.
For 100yd are you guys using infinite parallax on scope and producing picture clarity with thermal focus?
Or 100yd parallax on scope and refining thermal focus ring?
*Point being I want to think that for <300yd you should use scope to remove parallax first then fix picture with thermal whereas I believe Ive read before on here ppl set scope to infinity parallax then focus target with thermal 400-900yd area.
Or 100yd parallax on scope and refining thermal focus ring?
*Point being I want to think that for <300yd you should use scope to remove parallax first then fix picture with thermal whereas I believe Ive read before on here ppl set scope to infinity parallax then focus target with thermal 400-900yd area.
The manual for the LR tells you to set parallax to 100yds. The ELR manual specifies 300yds, although I think I ended up closer to 150yds with mine, but I'm not sure because the knob only has dots on it.
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6 emails (all unanswered) and two phone calls after receiving my replacement unit back in May and still no one can get back with me from EoTech. I started a new RMA through their website and mailed it in. Just called and the rep on the phone had no information on this new RMA and said the person in charge ( Pat. L) would look into it. I asked for this persons direct email and he would not share it.
Seriously guys, be careful buying things from EoTech right now. They are so screwed up.
Seriously guys, be careful buying things from EoTech right now. They are so screwed up.
Thank you. I did not know his last name. Thats an old email from when Eotech was part of L3 but I was able to locate his eotechinc.com email address and sent him a direct email.
I guess I got a hold of the right guy because I just got a tracking number From EoTech.
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