Night Vision EOTECH CLIP ON THERMALS ( Full details)

[CoryT]

Can’t wait to replace the disaster covers on the LR and ELR. One of the straps broke on the LR. EOTech customer service was less than helpful. “A replacement part will be available to purchase at some point in the future” was the response I received. It‘s a brand new unit! So much for a 10 year warranty. I messaged back informing them how poor CS it was to suggest someone buy a replacement for a faulty part and I was hoping there’d be an aftermarket solution soon. Glad to see it is in production. Put me down for 2!!

I purchased 2 of the Jelly Roll cases. Thanks for the heads up there!

I’ve only done ELR caps, I’d need the OD of the LR to make caps for it, I don‘t have one. I’m shipping 24 to SOK tomorrow, not sure if he will have them for individual sale yet. If you can measure your LR I can get it in Solidworks so we can print those as well.

 

[JKGTR]

Mmm those are beautiful. Some day I'll send my 30 in to Jay...

 

[stefan73]

Don't mean to hijack but @stefan73 here are the PVS 30 pics. Sorry it took so long and the quality isn't great, I will redo them with the triggercam sometime next week. That house is at 400m first pic is no illuminator, we had partly cloudy skies and no moon. Second is raptar s illuminator on low last is the raptar s on high. I have also attached the specs for the tube I got. Jay did a great job, I would recommend him 100%. View attachment 8007112View attachment 8007113View attachment 8007114View attachment 8007115

Thank you! That is awesome!

 

[Ppapago]

How does the ClipIR and the ClipIR-LR compare to the L3 LWTS? I have teh LWTS and want something that can allow me to reach out farther.

 

[jstokes1]

How does the ClipIR and the ClipIR-LR compare to the L3 LWTS? I have teh LWTS and want something that can allow me to reach out farther.

The clip LR is going 5o reach further than the LWTS

 

[Conqueror]

And the ELR will wreck the LWTS unless you need a stand-alone mode.

 

[SkyScrapin]

One ELR left

EOTECH

The worlds most trusted source for your night vision and thermal needs.

strictlyoffensivekit.com

 

[SkyScrapin]

Bing bong

 

[JoeZ]

When can we order the objective lens caps for the XLR?

 

[CoryT]

I'm waiting on material to do another run, hopefully sometime next week I'll be able to do another run.

 

[Georgedubya]

In what situations is the LR the right choice over the xELR and vise versa? Is the LR the sweet spot for hunting and some mid-range steel. When would you really want the xELR?

Can the xELR still be used on 100 yd shots on pigs? I Understand more FOV is better, but most of the precision scopes we use have ~5 degrees FOV at best on lower mags so this is something we are familiar with, but it is in the daylight so target acquisition is much easier, vs blindly scanning....kinda answered my own question there I know. More FOV better for follow up/running shots.....

I have steel to 1000, and some hogs and other varmints as targets of opportunity. Hogs mostly at feeders given how dry it is right now.

School me....

would love insight on this as well.

 

[Evolution 9]

I can sort of answer that…

I have zero time behind an xELR, but lots of time behind an LR and an MR. If you follow my logic (it’s logical to me anyway) I think you can extrapolate a little for the xELR. This will at least suffice until someone else answers.

1. I bought an LR and use it for everything. I can shoot consistent sub MOA groups with it (witnessed by members here).

2. I can see coyotes over 1000 yards away.

3. I can’t usually hit a coyote at that distance even during the day (real life factors… it’s simple to hit targets that size on a range).

Now, if you consider points 1, 2, and 3 above, you’ll realize that conditions and my shooting skill, and NOT the thermal, are the limiting factor in making actual hits at night.

I recently borrowed a MR from @wigwamitus for a wolf hunt (what kind of dealer overnights you his personally owned thermal to borrow when you’re in a bind???). I expected to be range-limited by the MR. I wasn’t. I was, again, limited by real life real world factors, and NOT the image produced by the MR. I was also able to produce sub MOA groups with the MR.

So…

If an MR will do everything at night that I can realistically do in the day…

And if an LR can REALLY do everything at night that I can realistically do in the day…

Then the xELR doesn’t actually add any real world SHOOTING capabilities at all. If you choose an xELR, you will gain PID and aesthetically pleasing images, and there’s something to be said for that. But you will not be adding real world, rounds on target differences under any but the most uncommon circumstances.

BTW, I’ve found the perfect combo for wolf hunting in the west. MR or LR on an AR15 with a NOX35 as a scanner.

 

[Burdy]

I can sort of answer that…

I have zero time behind an xELR, but lots of time behind an LR and an MR. If you follow my logic (it’s logical to me anyway) I think you can extrapolate a little for the xELR. This will at least suffice until someone else answers.

1. I bought an LR and use it for everything. I can shoot consistent sub MOA groups with it (witnessed by members here).

2. I can see coyotes over 1000 yards away.

3. I can’t usually hit a coyote at that distance even during the day (real life factors… it’s simple to hit targets that size on a range).

Now, if you consider points 1, 2, and 3 above, you’ll realize that conditions and my shooting skill, and NOT the thermal, are the limiting factor in making actual hits at night.

I recently borrowed a MR from @wigwamitus for a wolf hunt (what kind of dealer overnights you his personally owned thermal to borrow when you’re in a bind???). I expected to be range-limited by the MR. I wasn’t. I was, again, limited by real life real world factors, and NOT the image produced by the MR. I was also able to produce sub MOA groups with the MR.

So…

If an MR will do everything at night that I can realistically do in the day…

And if an LR can REALLY do everything at night that I can realistically do in the day…

Then the xELR doesn’t actually add any real world SHOOTING capabilities at all. If you choose an xELR, you will gain PID and aesthetically pleasing images, and there’s something to be said for that. But you will not be adding real world, rounds on target differences under any but the most uncommon circumstances.

BTW, I’ve found the perfect combo for wolf hunting in the west. MR or LR on an AR15 with a NOX35 as a scanner.

This guy nailed it. I've used both. I made a 200-220 yard shot on a possum with the MR and a 1.5-8 Razor LH with no problem. The only thing about the MR is you are limited to about eight power before things get pretty pixelated. But from 2.5 to 8 the IQ is quite impressive. I think for all around use the LR is a bit more versatile but your low end starts at about 4x, however It does have higher IQ. The XELR I'm sure is good for extremely long ranges and extremely high magnification scopes but none of those really carry over to practical real world use for ME.
YMMV

 

[cantankerous]

I own an ELR and I've had re chance to play with Wig's LR and MR.

The LR has an awesome image for the FOV.
I agree that the LR doesn't give up much compared to the ELR, but the ELR does beat it for PID ability.

For my use PID is king.
I have to be 100% sure that raccoon or possum I see isn't one of my kids' cats.
I have to be 200% sure that coyote I see isn't our dog or a newborn calf.out

Yes, the LR would be able to PID them easily in a *clean* open field out to at least 200-300 yards, but when I'm looking at a potential target partially obscured by terrain or intervening vegetation I want all the PID ability I can get.

More optical power means faster PID.

As anecdotal evidence I'll say I've observed two skunks running around between cattle at just shy of 600 yards. PID with the ELR was instant.

On another occasion I shot a troublesome raccoon at 450 with the ELR. Again, PID was instant. Both ranged with a radius.

 

[Ksracer]

As anecdotal evidence I'll say I've observed two skunks running around between cattle at just shy of 600 yards. PID with the ELR was instant.

I'll second this. The tails are plainly visible on skunks at 650+yds. Nothing else I've used even comes close to that.

 

[Burdy]

I own an ELR and I've had re chance to play with Wig's LR and MR.

The LR has an awesome image for the FOV.
I agree that the LR doesn't give up much compared to the ELR, but the ELR does beat it for PID ability.

For my use PID is king.
I have to be 100% sure that raccoon or possum I see isn't one of my kids' cats.
I have to be 200% sure that coyote I see isn't our dog or a newborn calf.out

Yes, the LR would be able to PID them easily in a *clean* open field out to at least 200-300 yards, but when I'm looking at a potential target partially obscured by terrain or intervening vegetation I want all the PID ability I can get.

More optical power means faster PID.

As anecdotal evidence I'll say I've observed two skunks running around between cattle at just shy of 600 yards. PID with the ELR was instant.

On another occasion I shot a troublesome raccoon at 450 with the ELR. Again, PID was instant. Both ranged with a radius.

You make great points. It wasn't really until using these units that I began to consider clip-on thermal over clip-on NV for the reasons you listed above. I always leaned toward NV for 100% target ID I've been reaching toward these units more and more.

 

[CoryT]

Ok, ELR caps are running on the printer, who needs them?

 

[Conqueror]

Me! I will send you an email.

 

[robozebra]

Ok, ELR caps are running on the printer, who needs them?

PM sent regarding one. Maybe 2 if it‘ll fit on LR.

 

[4O6shootist]

I'll take some LR lense caps!

 

[CoryT]

If someone will get a good reading with some calipers, I can do LR caps

 

[JoeZ]

I'd like an ELR cap please.

 

[Hootiewho]

I’d like to see a video comparison of a high end thermal clip on vs NV PVS30 or PVS24 LR. I know it’s two completely different technologies, but this is where I’m at right now. The biggest appeal to thermal for me is being able to use it regardless of day or night. I wouldn’t use it during broad daylight but those transitional periods from sunset to darkness are a real PITA. Too bright for NV but too dark for natural eyesight.

Thermals are just so damn big and bulky. My LMT is already pig enough lol.

 

[Ppapago]

What kind of POI shifts are you guys seeing with these units? I just took my ClipIr to the range and its way off. I am getting consistent groups from two different rifles that are 5 MOA off. Both rifles are zeroed at 100 yards and they are both shooting 5 inches high and 5 inches right.

The two day scopes are NX8 1-8 on a (Geissele Mount 1.54 mount) and NX8 2.5-20 on a LMT MWS ( Badger Ordnance mount 1.54)

 

[TheHorta]

What kind of POI shifts are you guys seeing with these units? I just took my ClipIr to the range and its way off. I am getting consistent groups from two different rifles that are 5 MOA off. Both rifles are zeroed at 100 yards and they are both shooting 5 inches high and 5 inches right.

The two day scopes are NX8 1-8 on a (Geissele Mount 1.54 mount) and NX8 2.5-20 on a LMT MWS ( Badger Ordnance mount 1.54)

Mine is ~1.5” low, windage is dead-on. I was told that EOTech will swap out any “out of spec” unit confirmed to be over 1-MOA shift.

I can live with 1.5” low. Easy to remember to dial in or hold over.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Horta, do these EOTECH units have a menu that allows you to shift the screen around to take out any POI shifts.

 

[Evolution 9]

They do not

 

[WhereNow&How]

Seems like that would be a simple software update that could allow users to "fine tune" their units such as to pretty much eliminate most of the POI shift issues that may be encountered.

 

[TheHorta]

Not sure what their QC process is during collimation. Seems like there should be less unit-to-unit shift variation. I’ve heard everything from zero, to my 1.5 MOA, to this poor dude’s 5 MOA shift.

Mine is as simple as remembering to dial in 4-5 clicks up elevation. Not worth sending back to EOTech to fix. With my luck, they’d make it worse.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Hecque, I'd be scared to death to put that big ticket item in the hands of a carrier. That would be the worst part.

It would be lost somewhere or be delivered to the wrong address and my heart attack repair costs would be astronomical.

 

[Conqueror]

We’ve discussed this ad nauseum in other threads. Most of the military clip-ons do not seem to have a method for individual-level collimation adjustment. The military probably wants soldiers to be issued devices off a rack and just have them work adequately. Those manufacturers seem to put a lot more time into making the view as perfect as they can (at least in theory) with a digital collimating rig at the factory, then they lock that setting. I agree that for a civilian it’d be nice to have such an option, but I guess you trade that away when you want the absolute peak performer in IQ etc.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Yep, I can envision it now. Private Snuffy and his adjusting tools performing Collimation on his thermal.

But their can always be some slight deviation between a receiver pic rail and the forearm pic rail which I would think would throw a perfectly collimated Thermal Clip on off to some degree. So in my pea level mind, that is probably a lot of the POI shift issues people are seeing.

 

[TheHorta]

Yep, I can envision it now. Private Snuffy and his adjusting tools performing Collimation on his thermal.

But their can always be some slight deviation between a receiver pic rail and the forearm pic rail which I would think would throw a perfectly collimated Thermal Clip on off to some degree. So in my pea level mind, that is probably a lot of the POI shift issues people are seeing.

A truly collimated clipon should not be affected by any rail misalignment. My FWS was zero shift no matter what height mismatch, rail or mount MOA (like a 20 MOA Spuhr, or something) and wonky rail alignment. Same thing with the UTC-Xii’s I’ve run. Zero shift regardless of irregularities in the optical path. The Tig and C35 are a different story.

 

[Ppapago]

Even if rail and receiver misalignment played a role, one of the rifles I used to test POI was a LMT MWS, and it is monolithic. SOK is working with me to get it resolved through EoTech so I am not worried about the end result. Im sure ill get a replacement.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Even if rail and receiver misalignment played a role, one of the rifles I used to test POI was a LMT MWS, and it is monolithic. SOK is working with me to get it resolved through EoTech so I am not worried about the end result. Im sure ill get a replacement.

LR ELR OR MR?

 

[Ppapago]

MR (ClipIr)

 

[ifly4vamerica]

So I am probably way off on this however no matter how good your collimation is you still have the fact of the objective being higher on the ELR than your scope. I did some fancy measuring with a not so fancy but also not crappy caliper an my ELR shift is exactly the same as the difference between the objective of the ELR and the Scope. SO then I figured if the ELR was properly collimated at infinity I should get closer to dead on the further the distance. So I went and shot at 100m out to 800m in 100m increments. As I suspected the further away I got the less I was off. I don't have the exact numbers with me but my theory is the line of sight of the scope and the ELR get closer as you go towards infinity.

Now this is all just plain guesswork and not really that scientific but I did have a chat with Jay Cryme about it and he is the one that gave me the initial idea. My ladder distance shooting would SEEM to support that too.

Also, while I have been told it shouldn't make a difference I did have a different POI when I was using a mount with 20 moa built in. I tested this on an AXSR and a plain old AX, with the 20 moa mount on the receiver (which already had 20 moa built in so does the rail actually) I was getting high poi with the elr, when I switched to a 0 moa mount this went to the low POI.

Again, I have been told it shouldn't matter but for me it did. I started all this because initially I built my poi shift into my kestrel profile and was missing HIGH at 800m turns out I was missing by exactly the same amount as the POI shift I entered.

Anyway now with 0 moa mounts and just using no adjustment for POI at 100m I am good to go.

Again, I have no idea why my results were like this but thought I would share. Somebody super smart feel free to chime in. Just be gentle! LOL

 

[ifly4vamerica]

What kind of POI shifts are you guys seeing with these units? I just took my ClipIr to the range and its way off. I am getting consistent groups from two different rifles that are 5 MOA off. Both rifles are zeroed at 100 yards and they are both shooting 5 inches high and 5 inches right.

The two day scopes are NX8 1-8 on a (Geissele Mount 1.54 mount) and NX8 2.5-20 on a LMT MWS ( Badger Ordnance mount 1.54)

Did you by have chance have it zoomed? If I zoom mine to 2x it is def about 5x5 high.

 

[Ppapago]

Did you by have chance have it zoomed? If I zoom mine to 2x it is def about 5x5 high.

I am positive that it was not zoomed. I even went back out a couple hours ago and shot some more groups and it was again 3-5MOA off. Wind is howling 15 mph+ right now so getting good tight groups are difficult. Wind was calm earlier this AM when I shot the first groups though.

 

[TheHorta]

I’ve run my ELR on a monolithic LMT rail, a BCM and a Superlight 6.5CM AR-10, in front of a 1.35” Elcan, a 1.5” 1-10 VO, a 4-20 ZCO in a high mount. The rail, the mount MOA and scope height had no practical effect. All of them were 1-1.5 MOA low.

To my understanding, that is a good sign that the Theons are solid performers when it comes to collimation — better than most. I’ve heard plenty of reports from users who have no detectable shift, a few like me who are close to or within “spec”, and maybe 3-4 reports across models with out of spec shift.

I’d wager Oasys/BAE/Trijicon and PoT are similar.

Still the best clipon options available at a reasonable price for we mere mortals.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Horta, slack up on the holiday adult Sarsaparillas festivities.

You aint a mere mortal. You are a Thermal Super Hero.

 

[Ksracer]

So I am probably way off on this however no matter how good your collimation is you still have the fact of the objective being higher on the ELR than your scope. I did some fancy measuring with a not so fancy but also not crappy caliper an my ELR shift is exactly the same as the difference between the objective of the ELR and the Scope. SO then I figured if the ELR was properly collimated at infinity I should get closer to dead on the further the distance. So I went and shot at 100m out to 800m in 100m increments. As I suspected the further away I got the less I was off. I don't have the exact numbers with me but my theory is the line of sight of the scope and the ELR get closer as you go towards infinity.

Now this is all just plain guesswork and not really that scientific but I did have a chat with Jay Cryme about it and he is the one that gave me the initial idea. My ladder distance shooting would SEEM to support that too.

Also, while I have been told it shouldn't make a difference I did have a different POI when I was using a mount with 20 moa built in. I tested this on an AXSR and a plain old AX, with the 20 moa mount on the receiver (which already had 20 moa built in so does the rail actually) I was getting high poi with the elr, when I switched to a 0 moa mount this went to the low POI.

Again, I have been told it shouldn't matter but for me it did. I started all this because initially I built my poi shift into my kestrel profile and was missing HIGH at 800m turns out I was missing by exactly the same amount as the POI shift I entered.

Anyway now with 0 moa mounts and just using no adjustment for POI at 100m I am good to go.

Again, I have no idea why my results were like this but thought I would share. Somebody super smart feel free to chime in. Just be gentle! LOL

Same results and conclusion I came to. The stepped design of the xELR raises the incoming image 1". That puts you 1" (not 1 moa) low at any range you shoot at with no other changes.

If you were to adjust your zero @100 yds to compensate, you would also have to add 1" to the bore height in your ballistic calculator. Otherwise you would be high at farther ranges.

Just a theory.

 

[Evolution 9]

I experienced the same thing (3/4”) with the LWTS-LR. The original targets from DRT’s testing showed the same thing (on the LWTS-LR)

 

[CoryT]

OK, I've got four people confirmed for ELR caps, JoeZ, RoboZebra, Conqueror and JGRJR. Anyone I'm missing? Did anyone with an LR get a measurement of the objective?

 

[4O6shootist]

OK, I've got four people confirmed for ELR caps, JoeZ, RoboZebra, Conqueror and JGRJR. Anyone I'm missing? Did anyone with an LR get a measurement of the objective?

I'll get it in next two days.

 

[ifly4vamerica]

Same results and conclusion I came to. The stepped design of the xELR raises the incoming image 1". That puts you 1" (not 1 moa) low at any range you shoot at with no other changes.

If you were to adjust your zero @100 yds to compensate, you would also have to add 1" to the bore height in your ballistic calculator. Otherwise you would be high at farther ranges.

Just a theory.

I agree with you except on the 1 inch at " any " range. EOTech knows there is a height difference so when collimating my theory is they would do so so the line of sight of the elr would intercept the line of sight of the optic at infinity, so you'd be 1" low at 100 but every hundred meters you'd get closer to your day optic zero.

If that makes sense, so in theory EOTech wouldn't collimate straight but down just a snitch.

 

[robozebra]

OK, I've got four people confirmed for ELR caps, JoeZ, RoboZebra, Conqueror and JGRJR. Anyone I'm missing? Did anyone with an LR get a measurement of the objective?

ELR 3.4250”
LR 2.9910”

Hope this helps. I included the ELR measurement for comparison. I’m sure you made the ELR caps based on a specific measurement and can use my measurement as a benchmark for the LR. If you print one and need someone to test, you can ship it to me and I’ll test it.

Thanks

 

[CoryT]

Roger that, I’ll check it against the Solidworks file and my unit.

 

[taliv]

Something a little different for you snipers…

A short video I took of the local fireworks display tonight through the ELR. Note it was raining and foggy. Display was 0.70 miles away. There are trees between me and the fireworks which are out of focus which creates kind of a veiny look. and there are two power lines running across the upper half of the fov. This video was taken by holding my iPhone in front of a compact leupold spotter at 12x. So apologies for any wobble etc.




edit to add: i'm also going to go ahead and blame the camera shaking on the women in front of me. one said her regulator on her car went out and the other replied "is a regulator the same as the engine?"

 

[taliv]

First range report with the ELR.

Ipsc silhouettes are at 415 yards. Black 6” circle is at 410 yds. Two rounds, one with and one without the ELR so I think collimation is solid.

(All the other impacts as of this point are from last year)

I was having a hard time seeing the steel with the thermal though so I decided to put a hostage target over the shoulder of the full size ipsc. I put a gallon jug of ice water.

Note the jug is pretty close to full this time. But the lack of heat transferred pretty quick to the target and fooled me a bit.

Here’s what it looked like through thermal before i shot and without thermal after the shot.
Through thermal the white and black hostage silhouette on the left Kinda blend together. I couldn’t have made the shot if I didn’t know they were two targets. I just aimed a little high on what looked like one head and hit the knock down black bad guy target behind the hostage.

The black head is 3” square. Not bad at 415y with the ELR.

However I was aiming at the center of the cold on the jug and just clipped the hostages shoulder. Half inch higher and I would have been good.

Pic above shows impact and resetting the jug. However jug has less water in it which I didn’t realize. Spalling from first shot caused a leak and the water ran down the target making it look like a cold streak. Here it is reset without thermal. Note shot on head of black left silhouette. and half full jug of ice water over right shoulder of full size silhouette.

And here it is through thermal where you can see the cold smear down left side of ipsc.

The half full jug really fooled me. I shot a few inches lower deep into the shoulder this time.

Not horrible for first trip out. Definitely have a lot of learning to do on how to get a better image. Curious how these images compare to others’.

Misc thoughts:
Disappointed in the ability to go to higher mags. Scope is nf 7-35 and anything above 12x or so was worse than lower mag. Been using a pvs27 past ten years which maxed out at 12x and I really thought I was gaining some magnification going to the ELR maybe 20x. Maybe I did and don’t know how to use it yet. Any tips much appreciated.

Even though the nf zooms out to 7x I couldn’t zoom out far enough to see the on screen menu. The leupold compact spotter 12-40x on 12x has a fov big enough to see the whole menu. But on the nf I couldn’t operate the menu enough to even bump it down to the smaller fov menu. I need to practice doing that button sequence without looking.

I also couldn’t figure out how to change the brightness. Surprisingly zooming from 7-15x or so on the nf changed the brightness of the image a lot. At 12x It got dim enough that the iPhone was having trouble focusing on the image.

The digital zoom was actually pretty useful. I understand I can’t shoot with it but leaving the nf on like 7x and digital zooming the ELR up often gave a better image than ELR on 1x and nf on 12x.

Flipping through combinations of the 4 modes and whot and bhot is super useful. Sometimes one combo is better and sometimes another. also illuminated reticle with bhot was pretty helpful