Night Vision EOTECH CLIP ON THERMALS ( Full details)
- Thread starter DownRangeThermal
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Not sure on the images above....maybe lr pic is out of focus? The LR and the 12 degree "m" have 640 displays. I have confirmed it. The ELR has a 1280 display but only utilizes 640 of the pixels. I was told that this display config allowed an advantage (cost?) in rear optics. If you look in eyepiece with naked eye you can see the full display. Display config/size can allow for some different Mag/demag. Think about the steiner c35 vs s35. Same lens...same fov but one is 1x and one is 2x..... a lot of that is via the display. 800 vs 1024 Pulsar does that on a bunch of models too by tinkering with display size.
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This was discussed in previous pages and I suspected it might have to do with the pixel size. I suspect the rear half of the units is basically identical, and the stuff that makes them MR/LR/ELR is all on the front side with the microbolometer and the objective assembly. If they have a 1/2" screen in the back and they bump it from 640 to 1280 pixels, the pixels will be a lot smaller on the 1280 screen, which will allow the unit to take more magnification. So maybe for the UK/CANSOF trials they used the same back half design with the same size screen in back but sourced one with higher resolution so it would have half the pixel size.
The new breed of thermal clipons submitted for MIL evaluation seems to run dual mode — big screen for dedicated scope use, reduced size for clipon. Since there is a reticle on the ELR, I would guess is has an optional dedicated mode that uses the full screen size.
Just a guess, but that’s the way my FWS-Snipe works.
That dates back to the CNVD-LR or earlier, doesn't it? IMO there's too much demag on the ELR to use as a stand-alone even if you used the full 1280 screen but maybe not. I can't imagine why they would disable that feature for civilian sales when they have left everything else enabled, and Dan said they told him there is no stand-alone mode...
Dan would know. I was able to visit Theon Sensors in Greece while there back in October 2021. They had the xELR there to play with, but it didn’t have the plastic focus fins, and I swear the eyepiece was bigger/different.
They had zero idea what TracIR was back then.
Ya, that LR pic was a bad example. Try these two. Why does there appear to be as many pixels per Mil on the reticle with the MR as there are on the ELR? With a wider FOV spread out on the same pixel count, there should be fewer per MIL for the MR.
The more I look at it, maybe those vertical lines aren't the pixel borders. There appear to be 3 vertical spacings all lit up together to make 1 larger square. Hell if I know. I just thought it was interesting.
I'm not sure why the LR pics appear out of focus. I have the best parallax setting for my ELR marked on my scope. That night I put the MR on, confirmed that it liked the same setting, and then snapped all 3 series of pics without adjusting it for the Theon units.
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Finally another M in the wild! I am really excited to see how they compare.
The smart scopes can be used with the ELR quickly without a spotter with some practice.
I enable the digital crosshairs and zero them to my day reticle (Revic smart scope). When I dial for my target my digital crosshairs are still zeroed at 100 with the Radius.
it's not as smooth as the TracIR but it didn't cost >$30k to get into either.
Neighbor walking dog at approx 225 yards. ClipIR-ELR on a Spotter 60 at 20x magnification. Forgot to adjust the focus so it’s more on the foreground trees than the person. Smooth.
A few deer clips through the ELR and 1-10:
As soon as I get it back I'll post some pics. Should be this week.
I definitely do as I'm trying to decide between them..We want pics of the Vudoo M and ELR side by side. The people have spoken.@TheHorta I’m looking at you..
How about a video? I'll be doing that next month!
Stokes will be handling the M vs ELR photos. Sending the M to him this week. PM him every 20 minutes starting today and tell him to get off his smokin’ hawt girlfriend and get to work.
Just a few faux toes to whet yer whistle.
Of course, the “formerly known as xELR” ELR has a much tighter FoV, and should be able to punch past the Voodoo-M on optics alone, thanks to that gargantuan planetoid of Germanium we call an “objective.” When I look at the ELR, all the Trekkie inside me sees is the planet-killer from the original series episode “Doomsday Machine”.
But… and this is still very preliminary… the Voodoo seems to hang very well with the ELR and both are easily usable to 20x optical magnification. In front of a S&B 3-27, I find the entire zoom range to be usable. Sure, 27x doesn’t get you much, if anything, over 20x but I’m pleasantly surprised at how well they both hold-up at extreme optical magnifications.
Between the two, the Voodoo is the better unit *overall*, but in terms of pure reach the ELR has the edge. The rest of the package pushes the Voodoo ahead of the EOTech/Theon. The most obvious are the size and weight advantages of the Voodoo, which are non-trivial to say the least. I have the TracIR cable for the Voodoo as well, and my preliminary tinkering shows it to work just like it does on the Trij/BAE units, provided you have a Wilcox AB Raptar. I know many don’t care about TracIR, but I’m a big fan because I don’t do this for a living and I’m always swapping guns and optics and rarely have enough time to learn my dope on anything, so TracIR makes a handicapped retard like me look like Carlos Hathcock.
I’ve seen many others mention this, but the ELR has *serious* parasitic drain issues and some weird battery thing that it’ll drain one battery completely and won’t turn on, even if the other 3 batteries are fresh.
Internal mechanical shutter on the ELR rocks. It should be a standard feature on every thermal since 2010.
Whaddup with dat, PoT?!
Gonna run a Red-I on both and see how it looks.
But… and this is still very preliminary… the Voodoo seems to hang very well with the ELR and both are easily usable to 20x optical magnification. In front of a S&B 3-27, I find the entire zoom range to be usable. Sure, 27x doesn’t get you much, if anything, over 20x but I’m pleasantly surprised at how well they both hold-up at extreme optical magnifications.
Between the two, the Voodoo is the better unit *overall*, but in terms of pure reach the ELR has the edge. The rest of the package pushes the Voodoo ahead of the EOTech/Theon. The most obvious are the size and weight advantages of the Voodoo, which are non-trivial to say the least. I have the TracIR cable for the Voodoo as well, and my preliminary tinkering shows it to work just like it does on the Trij/BAE units, provided you have a Wilcox AB Raptar. I know many don’t care about TracIR, but I’m a big fan because I don’t do this for a living and I’m always swapping guns and optics and rarely have enough time to learn my dope on anything, so TracIR makes a handicapped retard like me look like Carlos Hathcock.
I’ve seen many others mention this, but the ELR has *serious* parasitic drain issues and some weird battery thing that it’ll drain one battery completely and won’t turn on, even if the other 3 batteries are fresh.
Internal mechanical shutter on the ELR rocks. It should be a standard feature on every thermal since 2010.
Whaddup with dat, PoT?!
Gonna run a Red-I on both and see how it looks.
Where are “many others” discussing parasitic drain on the ELRs? This is the first mention of it I’ve seen anywhere on the series of tubes. I haven’t yet marked it as a big issue with mine but I haven’t used it in a few weeks, maybe I’ll go check the battery.
It’s been a topic of discussion in some other groups I’m in. Most don’t leave batteries in their devices, and I usually don’t either, but I left mine in overnight and the ELR was dead the next day.
SOK can elaborate. It’s weird. Seems to only affect one battery, but unit won’t run even if other 3 are full.
Part of me wonders slightly if anyone is leaving it in standby by accident. I left mine in standby for like 3 hours the day I got it because I didn’t hold the power-off button quite long enough, and unless you look through it at the right time you could miss the standby indication on the screen since it only flashes intermittently.
I thought that might be it (and I did leave it in standby overnight the first night). Seems to drain when confirmed off. Even if you insert batteries with the unit turned off.
The demo ELR I’ve had my hands on for the last week or so is still on the first set of 4x CR123s and is at like 2/3 power after 3 different hunting outings. I scan with a handheld and leave the ELR off unless I need a closer look or to take a shot. It boots up so fast it’s not a pain shutting it off in between. But definitely no parasitic drain on this one.
Ditto.
I bet mine ran 6+ hours with 30 startups over the course of a few weeks on the set that came with it. I never took them out during that period. I forgot I had shut it off for the night when the red "low batt" warning came on and the next time out it ran another half hour before the warning came up again.
Definitely no battery issues here.
I keep lithium batteries in my LR 24/7 and zero drain issues since I bought it right when they came out.
It is possible I accidentally left it on again, I don’t have a crystal clear memory of shutting it down after I took those neighbor pics I posted above. 
I could be in the same boat. I turn 55 next month, so I plead senility.It is possible I accidentally left it on again, I don’t have a crystal clear memory of shutting it down after I took those neighbor pics I posted above.
You probably didn't. Two of my buddies both have drain and only one battery out of the 4 dies. No they are not in standby.It is possible I accidentally left it on again, I don’t have a crystal clear memory of shutting it down after I took those neighbor pics I posted above.
The first night I got mine the included batteries were dead the next morning. I thought perhaps I left it in standby. The next set was alkaline batteries again and they lasted almost a week with dozens of startups and probably about 4 hours of total run time. Those batteries never really ran out as I changed them to Lithium when the indicator turned red. The Li have been in since and I have maybe 1/2 hour on it, batteries are left in it and I just checked to see I have a full bar on the indicator. Seems good to me.
My question is who thought it would be a good idea to leave batteries in their device during storage? Lol
Some of us use them constantly or frequently at unexpected intervals. Mine rides in the truck within reach of the driver, batteries in 24/7. My days aren’t predictable enough to know which ones and what time I’ll be somewhere worth scanning a field. NOX35 is the same so I just fire it up to scan. If I see something in the NOX, I don’t need the extra delay of adding batteries to the LR.
NOX gets turned on a few times a day. Battery out would be a poor idea. LR not as much, but when I need it I need it now.
No drain from either for me.
They are posted over on Wig's Night Ops thread. It wasn't a very good night for thermals and I'm a shitty photographer so they aren't "breathtaking".
They are back to back to back in a short period of time so they are a fair comparison though.
I'll preface all of the following by saying I think the voodoo s is a bad ass little device for it's intended purposes.
Wanna pick your brain there Horta...Curious, aside from size what would make it better? Warranty...?, Price...? Recoil Rating...?, (ultra fast) Auto NUC...?, from off to mission ready in under 2 seconds...? Eye piece....??. Image quality....could be but that is very subjective so I'll never argue that.
Actually in my opinion the biggest question I have with the POT is the adjustable diopter. I have wondered why an engineer would incorporate that into a LR optic with a tiny display (im sure they have their reasons) . Can potentially introduce non unity conditions from end user and induce POI shift. Ok, if you always make sure to go back to the tick mark on the eyepiece ( in your pic its off btw) then theoretically you should be at factory unity setting but what happens if you forget...or it gets rotated in your bag....or its night time and you don't see that its off......... or the friction of eye-piece rotation loosens over time?
Here is a list of mil clip-on units that have won nato contracts or at least gone after that business. Which list has long range optics on it? I know the skeet and utmx were always thought of as a hand-held first ( IED detection) and short range clip-on second. If you have an optic that was designed primarily as a handheld optic then an adjustable eye-piece would be an important attribute. Generally you only see adjustable diopter on short range multi-use optics.
FIXED DIOPTER
INOD
HISS XLR
UTC X XII
IWS-LR
IWS-I/FWS-i
theon xelr/EOTECH ELR
CRATOS
BAE FWS-S ( did not win contract)
All products awarded MAS-N ( several Manf) for SOCOM
PVS 22
PVS 24
PVS 30
PVS 27
Excelitas DRAGON line
TIG-IR
LWTS
LWTS-LR
CNVD-T all series
FLIR ADUNS
ADJUSTABLE DIOPTER
Voodoo s/m
UTMx
Skeetir
Now on IBEAM LRF linking ( " tracir " is actually a BAE integration of IBEAM protocol ) I'll state the following. It is nice to have DATA right there on the thermal display. I would always rather have my solution there than not have it. I can however glance up at the led display on the back of my RAPTAR and get the exact same info in real time.....I say real time because in actual use with my now gone UTC/skeetir , tracir would often lag behind my RAPTAR by several seconds/solutions. For example if I would range 4 targets in rapid succession the display would show the second target for several seconds before giving data on the 3rd 4th and so on. The correct data would be displayed on RAPTAR but the lag was with the thermal displaying the up to date solutions. It was so bad I ditched the cable. This was more than likely an issue with the processor in the UTC and maybe the VOODOO has a much newer and usable version that makes TRACIR shine. The second bigger issue Ive had with TRACIR is that it always displays a disturbed reticle which you don't generally want on a clip-on. It is very inaccurate because of induced rail flex. Even rock solid chassis like AI will flex when you load them on a bipod or tripod. Challenge....go out and align tracir to your reticle then range at 600 yds. lets say it displays 3 mils elevation correction. Ok that should equate to roughly 3 mils on your primary reticle too. Now lean into your rifle and you'll see that entire image including the disturbed reticle shifts up as your rail flexes over the length of your rifle ( just like an IR laser on a M4). Now that disturbed reticle is at 2.5 mils on your primary reticle...so which do you use? The answer is on a unity optic you'd still be good using your primary reticle (3mils). Disturbed reticles are great in stand alone optics because you're using the thermal optic as an aiming device rather than a "looking" device. UTC were often used on machine guns with external displays as stand alone optics and that is when the TRACIR disturbed reticle would be accurate and useful. DRS uses their own version of IBEAM on the IWS-LR and when you go to clip on mode the disturbed reticle is turned off for the above reasons...in stand alone mode the disturbed reticle is reactivated. In clip on mode it only gives you data. HISS has a very unobtrusive flashing icon and then data on screen. INOD data only.
My point on all of the above is that in CLIP-ON use, the only reliably accurate TRACIR data is the solution not the disturbed reticle. That same data is available with a simple glance to an LED on your LRF....all without lag or cables. Now as you mentioned if your eyes are bad maybe the on screen display is preferred.
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On the topic of rail flex, If you zero your rifle prone then go to clipped into a tripod I have noticed that I get a POI shift. I leave the reticle turned on and "zeroed" to the same position as my day optic. This way when clipped into a tripod I can see if i am inducing any rail flex. Are you saying that rail flex is irrelevant and the POI should be the same from prone with the bipod on the fore end and clipped into a tripod just in front of the magwell?
Riley do you get the same zero shift without the thermal when shooting prone/bipod vs tripod only?
No POI shift when prone vs tripod in the day scope. Just when thermal is clipped on.
So flex in your rail is causing this when bipod loading. With clip on attached. I'm sure your day scope is on receiver rail, no flex there. Perhaps load your tripod less? Use a mlok arca rail on your hand guard that adds more rigidity to the rail to remove flex? Idk just trying to throw some ideas for a quick fix.
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