ES too high

[markl323]

Every time I shot 10x 5-shots groups, there would be about 3 groups with ES over 30. sometimes they go into the 40s and 50s range.
I have tried Lee collet die, Redding full length sizing die, Forster Neck bushing + Full length size + mandrels (2/1k and 3/1k tension), Imperial Dry Wax. Did not see any difference.

The best 10 groups are typically with virgin brass where my average ES is 20 and SD is 10. but I still get 1-2 groups with ES of about 30.

My steps:
- De-prime
- Wet tumble
- Dry brass in oven for 1h at 200F
- Lube case and Neck bushing + length sizing
- Mandrel
- Dispense powder then seat bullet

6.5 CM
Berger 140 Hybrid and Berger 144 Hybrid
Alpha SRP
Relode 16 43gr
CCI 450, BR4

What else should I do?
Thanks for any help.

 

[Devildog]

Have you tried another powder like H4350? How did you come up with 43 gr of reloader 16? Have you tried different powder charges to see what happens to your #?

Don’t mean to answer a question with questions, just seeking more info to try and help!

 

[Dimefox]

I believe ES is predominately driven by combustion, so you would need to vary charge weight, powder type and/or primer to find a load with an ES that you find suitable.

 

[918v]

Every time I shot 10x 5-shots groups, there would be about 3 groups with ES over 30. sometimes they go into the 40s and 50s range.
I have tried Lee collet die, Redding full length sizing die, Forster Neck bushing + Full length size + mandrels (2/1k and 3/1k tension), Imperial Dry Wax. Did not see any difference.

The best 10 groups are typically with virgin brass where my average ES is 20 and SD is 10. but I still get 1-2 groups with ES of about 30.

My steps:
- De-prime
- Wet tumble
- Dry brass in oven for 1h at 200F
- Lube case and Neck bushing + length sizing
- Mandrel
- Dispense powder then seat bullet

6.5 CM
Berger 140 Hybrid and Berger 144 Hybrid
Alpha SRP
Relode 16 43gr
CCI 450, BR4

What else should I do?
Thanks for any help.

How many firings on the brass? When/how was it annealed last?

 

[FredHammer]

What chronograph is being used?

 

[spife7980]

Anneal your brass.
Quit loading way over pressure.
Weigh powder more precisely.

Edit to add: shoot on paper at distance. You can still make small patterns with chrono numbers that internet nerds will tell you that you couldn’t.

 

[Superjet]

Are you wet tumbling with pins? If so, stop, dry tumble only and see if thing’s improve. Also, your load seems warm.

 

[Dogtown]

Are you wet tumbling with pins? If so, stop, dry tumble only and see if thing’s improve. Also, your load seems warm.

Huh? SS tumbling increases ES?

Could I have gotten an ES of 12 if I'd done it the old fashioned dirty way?

 

[918v]

Are you wet tumbling with pins? If so, stop, dry tumble only and see if thing’s improve. Also, your load seems warm.

He said he’s using dry lube.

 

[Superjet]

Huh? SS tumbling increases ES?

View attachment 8216805
Could I have gotten an ES of 12 if I'd done it the old fashioned dirty way?

If the necks are getting peened from the SS pins, it certainly could. If he already has a dry tumbler, would it hurt to try?

 

[markl323]

I did a powder ladder test and couldn't really find a "node" so I just picked 43 gr. I have tried H4350, when I still used the ChargeMaster and a cheap chronograph. So maybe I'll try again now that I have the FX 120i and the Labradar.

I have tried 100 rounds of virgin brass and brass that have been fired 1x, 2x. The virgin brass have ave ES of 20 and the rest have ave ES of 25. I am not annealing yet. I'm tempted to purchase an annealer, although the virgin brass still have groups with ES in the 20s and 30s so I suspect there's something about my process that causes high ES and it's not related annealing.

Yes I wet tumble with the SS pins. Dry lube is used for the mandrel and seating bullets. I do all the sizing after wet tumbling.

 

[straightshooter1]

I did a powder ladder test and couldn't really find a "node" so I just picked 43 gr. I have tried H4350, when I still used the ChargeMaster and a cheap chronograph. So maybe I'll try again now that I have the FX 120i and the Labradar.

I have tried 100 rounds of virgin brass and brass that have been fired 1x, 2x. The virgin brass have ave ES of 20 and the rest have ave ES of 25. I am not annealing yet. I'm tempted to purchase an annealer, although the virgin brass still have groups with ES in the 20s and 30s so I suspect there's something about my process that causes high ES and it's not related annealing.

Yes I wet tumble with the SS pins. Dry lube is used for the mandrel and seating bullets. I do all the sizing after wet tumbling.

You might try your wet tumbling without any pins (use HOT water) and the shorter the time the less peening you're get on the case mouths. This method, which I do whenever I wet tumble, would leave some the carbon in the necks and no need for dry lube. Annealing will certainly help too.

 

[CK1.0]

Stop wet tumbling, period, and that’ll probably cut your numbers in half right there. I swore for a couple years that wet tumbling was fine for precision ammo… until I stopped and found out it’s not.

Wet tumbling with SS pins is great… for blaster ammo only.

 

[918v]

I did a powder ladder test and couldn't really find a "node" so I just picked 43 gr. I have tried H4350, when I still used the ChargeMaster and a cheap chronograph. So maybe I'll try again now that I have the FX 120i and the Labradar.

I have tried 100 rounds of virgin brass and brass that have been fired 1x, 2x. The virgin brass have ave ES of 20 and the rest have ave ES of 25. I am not annealing yet. I'm tempted to purchase an annealer, although the virgin brass still have groups with ES in the 20s and 30s so I suspect there's something about my process that causes high ES and it's not related annealing.

Yes I wet tumble with the SS pins. Dry lube is used for the mandrel and seating bullets. I do all the sizing after wet tumbling.

Then try a different primer.

 

[Dogtown]

Stop wet tumbling, period, and that’ll probably cut your numbers in half right there. I swore for a couple years that wet tumbling was fine for precision ammo… until I stopped and found out it’s not.

Wet tumbling with SS pins is great… for blaster ammo only.

FFS, stop making me rethink my life choices!

 

[FNG1001]

ES is 20 for an SD of 10? How many shots in this group?

As others have said, your combustion is the driving force for MV shifts.

If i were you, i would simplify and minimize the steps on how you are prep'ing your brass. Then reevaluate.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Huh? SS tumbling increases ES?

View attachment 8216805
Could I have gotten an ES of 12 if I'd done it the old fashioned dirty way?

Yes it will trash the brass, especially if you have a good chamfer in there, that will effect neck tension which also has an effect on SD/ES.

Im dealing with it now with no SS media and tumbling for 10 minutes to wash lube off after sizing/trimming. Had to switch to trimming right before I load to preserve the necks.

I almost destroyed 500 pc of lapua brass by using pins. Never again.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Propper Annealing (AMP) and a high quality powder measure that goes to .02 grains is going to be the biggest bang for you buck improvements if you aren't already doing them.

Also stop using imperial wax and move to lanolin/alch. Its easier, faster, cleaner and you will get more consistent sizing without a shit load of wax building up in the die. My cases all size within a thou. Can't ask for better than that.


Reloading is not hard, you just need to understand each process and how to do it effectively and efficiently to make good ammo.

 

[918v]

Yes it will trash the brass, especially if you have a good chamfer in there, that will effect neck tension which also has an effect on SD/ES.

Im dealing with it now with no SS media and tumbling for 10 minutes to wash lube off after sizing/trimming. Had to switch to trimming right before I load to preserve the necks.

I almost destroyed 500 pc of lapua brass by using pins. Never again.

BS

 

[918v]

Propper Annealing (AMP) and a high quality powder measure that goes to .02 grains is going to be the biggest bang for you buck improvements if you aren't already doing them.

Also stop using imperial wax and move to lanolin/alch. Its easier, faster, cleaner and you will get more consistent sizing without a shit load of wax building up in the die. My cases all size within a thou. Can't ask for better than that.


Reloading is not hard, you just need to understand each process and how to do it effectively and efficiently to make good ammo.

BS

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

BS

LOL. I was literally dealing with it THIS week, and had been on the phone with alpha to figure it out.

Some of my cases from last week were not feeding at a match. Found out the issue was case mouths were peened to about .273. With a .273 neck reamer like MOST 6mm match chambers, they would not chamber.

Just 15 minutes in the wet tumbler with nothing but water and brass juice was enough to peen the chamfer and roll the edge adding about .003 to the neck diameter. A loaded round is .270. You could feel the lip with a fingernail and the Calipers and Mic confirmed it.

So i just sized, mandrelled, tumbled then trimmed and loaded 600 rounds THIS week, finishing up today. I miced every loaded round and not one was over .271.

So its not bullshit and you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. People need to know to save them these kind of headaches.

 

[John Glidewell]

@918v With you. I wet tumble with pins without issues and have single digit SDs.

 

[Dogtown]

I can't keep up with latest trends. Hell, I'm still wrapping my thumb around the pistol grip.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

So since you never had an issue it's not possible? Your lack of experience does not invalidate anything.

-Maybe you have a shitty trim/chamfer
-Maybe you shoot a saami spec chamber
-Maybe you use shit brass that is much thinner than premium brass
-Maybe about a 100 other variables you didn't think of.

 

[Runnineh]

What scale/ thrower are you using?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

What scale/ thrower are you using?

He said he has a fx120 so I assume ST or AT. Also Assuming the scale is setup correctly and calibrated it shouldn't really matter what thrower IMO. .02 grain resolution.

 

[MarinePMI]

Reloading practices are religion. And just like religion, attacking someone else's practice is, well, pissing up a rope.

There is no "right way" to do it. People have to find what works for them.

I do find it humorous that one person says "Reloading is not hard, you just need to understand each process and how to do it effectively and efficiently to make good ammo." and then admits (in their very next post) that they had to change their process, and trim/chamfer as a last step (doesn't everybody?). Which means they really didn't understand the process, and had to learn what worked for them... LOL!

As for peening happening without pins...I've never seen that. But that is just my experience. Same for Imperial Sizing wax; 30+ yrs now, and never had a problem. And yes, I have (and do) used lanolin/alch as a sizing lube. In particular, on large batch case prep, run through a Dillon/Autodrive, set up for case processing. It works well, but leaves nasty shit everywhere that has to be cleaned up, and it sucks trying to get it into the case necks. There's no free lunch. Do what works for you.

Oh, and if you disagree with someone, be courteous about it. Otherwise, you just sound like a know-it-all asshat, that thinks the world revolves around what they know, ignoring what they don't know. And asshats tend to annoy me, which is never good for their longevity on this site.

 

[CK1.0]

I still happily wet tumble shitloads of 9mm and .556 cases with SS pins (usually with a dash of Lemi-Shine and a shot of Armour All Wash & Wax). It really is the best way for that stuff, can't beat it. But, for precision rifle cases... nope.

Pins, no pins, little water, lots of water, etc, wet tumbling beats the shit out of the cases, which is bad (especially if you annealed it before you put it in there).

Stop beating the shit out of your brass every loading cycle and your numbers will improve, bet on it.

 

[lash]

Says the guy who tumbles for 8 hours.

 

[CK1.0]

Says the guy who tumbles for 8 hours.

It doesn’t hurt, 20-40 grit corn cob blasting media, removes every last bit of lube and flows through flash holes like water …and who doesn’t like shiny brass?

 

[R_A_W]

Annealing and neck tension are all the rage right now... to offer some other possibilities

What action is this on? If it's a bolt gun, how old is the firing pin spring? Any FP drag or obstructions (even Krylon in the bolt shroud)? How are you seating primers?

edit: I'm guessing the AI/AT you mentioned elsewhere, in which case it's extremely unlikely you have any issues related to the questions I asked about the rifle/firing pin/etc.

 

[lash]

Refer back to what @spife7980 said in post #6.

 

[markl323]

In response to some questions, I’m using the A&D 120i scale with the AT. The “average” ES for new brass is 20 and old brass is 25+. I shoot 10x 5-shot groups of each, get the ES for each group and average them. Rifle is the AI/AT without any modifications. I seat primers with the Lyman 8 turret press. I always check and make sure each seated flush since it can affect my Base to Ogive measurements after bullet seating.

A lot of suggestions, some quick & easy, some will take more time and money so I’ll try the quickest & cheapest methods first, in this order.

• Deburr case mouths.
• No cleaning brass.
• Lower powder charge.
• H4350 (again) + maybe Fed primer
• Annealing

 

[straightshooter1]

In response to some questions, I’m using the A&D 120i scale with the AT. The “average” ES for new brass is 20 and old brass is 25+. I shoot 10x 5-shot groups of each, get the ES for each group and average them. Rifle is the AI/AT without any modifications. I seat primers with the Lyman 8 turret press. I always check and make sure each seated flush since it can affect my Base to Ogive measurements after bullet seating.

A lot of suggestions, some quick & easy, some will take more time and money so I’ll try the quickest & cheapest methods first, in this order.

• Deburr case mouths.
• No cleaning brass.
• Lower powder charge.
• H4350 (again) + maybe Fed primer
• Annealing

What I've highlighted here very much could be your big issue. If you're seating your primers flush, your primers, surely some of them, are not reaching the bottom of your primer pockets. You need to be sure the bottom of your primers is at least touching the bottom of your primer pockets, if not having a slight crush into the primer pocket. The best way to know where you're at with regard to this is to measure your primers and primer pockets and see that relationship between the primer's base to the bottom of the primer pocket. So, before you do any of those things on that list, take those measurements!

 

[John Glidewell]

We got to talk with a few primer manufacturers and they all said .002 crush is the preference. If you can't measure it then .003 or .004 below case head gets the primer seated to touch if not a slight crush. There is a thread in here with videos.

 

[Dimefox]

I did a powder ladder test and couldn't really find a "node" so I just picked 43 gr. I have tried H4350, when I still used the ChargeMaster and a cheap chronograph. So maybe I'll try again now that I have the FX 120i and the Labradar.

I have tried 100 rounds of virgin brass and brass that have been fired 1x, 2x. The virgin brass have ave ES of 20 and the rest have ave ES of 25. I am not annealing yet. I'm tempted to purchase an annealer, although the virgin brass still have groups with ES in the 20s and 30s so I suspect there's something about my process that causes high ES and it's not related annealing.

Yes I wet tumble with the SS pins. Dry lube is used for the mandrel and seating bullets. I do all the sizing after wet tumbling.

Like elbows and assholes, everyone has their own opinion on ladders and their interpretation.

I like ladders, if it were me and I didn't find a node with a particular powder, I would either repeat it with a different primer or scratch that powder all together and try different ones until I found what my gun liked.

I think if your 43 gr fell within a node and your ES was still big, then it would be worth chasing down some of the other variables suggested. The ES data from the randomly selected charge is telling you something about the powder needs changed, IMO.

I'm not saying you do or don't need to change other aspect of your reloading process to improve consistency, I'm not wading into that pool. If it were me, I'd be focusing on different powders and charges to start. YMMV.

 

[CK1.0]

In response to some questions, I’m using the A&D 120i scale with the AT. The “average” ES for new brass is 20 and old brass is 25+. I shoot 10x 5-shot groups of each, get the ES for each group and average them. Rifle is the AI/AT without any modifications. I seat primers with the Lyman 8 turret press. I always check and make sure each seated flush since it can affect my Base to Ogive measurements after bullet seating.

A lot of suggestions, some quick & easy, some will take more time and money so I’ll try the quickest & cheapest methods first, in this order.

• Deburr case mouths.
• No cleaning brass.
• Lower powder charge.
• H4350 (again) + maybe Fed primer
• Annealing

If you can and already have an annealing machine, anneal your brass as the first step (think of annealing as “resetting” the brass).

The rest of the stuff to try is free and relatively easy:

- Don’t wet tumble it!

- Get all the sizing lube off the cases when you’re done sizing. For real, all of it.

- Chamfer the inside of the case mouths lightly after you’ve hit your mandrel. Just smooth things out, no need to remove much material. Doesn’t really matter which mandrel you use, either 2 or 3 thou tension will work, pick one.

Don’t even worry about the charge or length/seating depth… just pick something middle of the road with both. Go vanilla, like 80% case fill and well below max mag length. Make sure every drop is exactly the same to 0.02gn and seat all your bullets carefully so they all end up within a couple thou of each other CBTO.

If you can make rounds that are as close to being 1-for-1 clones of one and each other as possible your numbers will look good.

The exact charge weight and/or exact seating depth doesn’t matter as much as many think, a lot of guys just run shitty “ammo factories” and it’s actually more about squaring that away more so than any magic recipe. You can get single digit SDs and ESs in the teens with a load that you pulled out of thin air if you can make them all turn out the same.

 

[lash]

One last thing I’ll say, then I’m out.

Only change one thing at a time. If you change more than one variable at a time, you’ll have no idea what made a difference and therefore have not learned what works and what doesn’t.

Good luck with your adventure.

 

[axarob44]

If you’re using a mandrel and inside chamfer how is peening case mouths from wet tumbling an issue. A very light kiss with the inside chamfer tool takes care of any case mouth peening. Plus the mandrel will take care of that also. I always use a brush in the necks to burnish the inside as one of the last steps when prepping cases.

Of coarse I don’t tumble cases for 3 hours either. Just enough to get the dirt and debris out of the case before sizing. I pop primers out on a universal deprime die then anneal and tumble.

Tumbling after annealing removes that roughness, ‘oxide’or whatever cause the roughness inside the neck from annealing

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If you’re using a mandrel and inside chamfer how is peening case mouths from wet tumbling an issue. A very light kiss with the inside chamfer tool takes care of any case mouth peening. Plus the mandrel will take care of that also. I always use a brush in the necks to burnish the inside as one of the last steps when prepping cases.

Of coarse I don’t tumble cases for 3 hours either. Just enough to get the dirt and debris out of the case before sizing. I pop primers out on a universal deprime die then anneal and tumble.

Tumbling after annealing removes that roughness, ‘oxide’or whatever cause the roughness inside the neck from annealing

Because we aren't using a piece of shit chamfer tool. We are using a Henderson that creates a razor sharp edge that you could do a biopsy with. It chamfers the inside and outside of the case.

10-15 minutes is all it takes wet tumbling with no media to roll the edge and run into problems. I have seen it, friends have seen it. I talked to Both Alpha and Stuestville who confirmed that was the issue as well.

 

[John Glidewell]

you do that after you tumble. Unreal.

 

[axarob44]

Because we aren't using a piece of shit chamfer tool. We are using a Henderson that creates a razor sharp edge that you could do a biopsy with. It chamfers the inside and outside of the case.

10-15 minutes is all it takes wet tumbling with no media to roll the edge and run into problems. I have seen it, friends have seen it. I talked to Both Alpha and Stuestville who confirmed that was the issue as well.

Wow! Razor sharp! That sound practical. I'll stick to my shitty tools. I get consistent seating depth and concentricity without damaging the bullet jacket which is what's required from that process.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Wow! Razor sharp! That sound practical. I'll stick to my shitty tools. I get consistent seating depth and concentricity without damaging the bullet jacket which is what's required from that process.

There is zero damage to the bullet. 3 SD and 10 ES is the norm, and thats without doing any tuning. Could get it lower if i tightened up the spread on the scale , sorted bullets ect, but its not worth it.

When you have to Anneal/deprime/clean/size/mandrel/clean/trim&cham/prime/charge/seat/mark 600 pc of brass in a week, you find things to speed up the process.

 

[FredHammer]

- Chamfer the inside of the case mouths lightly after you’ve hit your mandrel. Just smooth things out, no need to remove much material. Doesn’t really matter which mandrel you use, either 2 or 3 thou tension will work, pick one.

I mandrel after the chamfer to smooth out the chamfer. I just think while I'm smoothing, I might as well smooth that too. Bullets all get the same seating feel. Just FYI.

 

[CK1.0]

I mandrel after the chamfer to smooth out the chamfer. I just think while I'm smoothing, I might as well smooth that too. Bullets all get the same seating feel. Just FYI.

May not mean much, but running the mandrel after you’ve chamfered isn’t ideal as it may be galling your brass rather than smoothing anything. YMMV.

(We’re splitting hairs here for sure though.)

 

[918v]

May not mean much, but running the mandrel after you’ve chamfered isn’t ideal as it may be galling your brass rather than smoothing anything. YMMV.

(We’re splitting hairs here for sure though.)

It is not galling if you gave dry lube in the neck.

 

[918v]

If you’re using a mandrel and inside chamfer how is peening case mouths from wet tumbling an issue. A very light kiss with the inside chamfer tool takes care of any case mouth peening. Plus the mandrel will take care of that also. I always use a brush in the necks to burnish the inside as one of the last steps when prepping cases.

Of coarse I don’t tumble cases for 3 hours either. Just enough to get the dirt and debris out of the case before sizing. I pop primers out on a universal deprime die then anneal and tumble.

Tumbling after annealing removes that roughness, ‘oxide’or whatever cause the roughness inside the neck from annealing

No it doesn’t.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

I prefer tumbling wet with stainless pins then, anneal, full length size w/o mandrel, tumble in corn cob, trim/chamfer/deburr, prime, charge and seat. This is what I have been doing for quite a few years. For those that say you can't get good ES/SD using this method or stainless pins.....

 

[CK1.0]

It is not galling if you gave dry lube in the neck.

True, but you don’t need to lube anything if you chamfer after, last brass prep step before you seat bullets…

 

[Dogtown]