What would the avg accuracy be on an standard AR carbine with a 16" chrome lined 1-9 twist @ 100yds?
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Expected accuracy?
- Thread starter tomme boy
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Re: Expected accuracy?
I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group.
I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group.
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer but all the ones I've shot: Armalite, Colt, Spikes Tactical, DPMS, RRA have all been around 1.5"-2" from a rest of some sort at 100yds. Not all were 1:9" twist but all had similar accuracy pretty much across the board. The twist rate applies most when trying different weight bullets. 1:9" won't stabilize heavier bullets but most of the common weight military stuff will be fine. The most accurate I've shot is a POF which was SUB-MOA pretty consistently.
Also not sure why your groups would open up from 5 to 10 shots...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer but all the ones I've shot: Armalite, Colt, Spikes Tactical, DPMS, RRA have all been around 1.5"-2" from a rest of some sort at 100yds. Not all were 1:9" twist but all had similar accuracy pretty much across the board. The twist rate applies most when trying different weight bullets. 1:9" won't stabilize heavier bullets but most of the common weight military stuff will be fine. The most accurate I've shot is a POF which was SUB-MOA pretty consistently.
Also not sure why your groups would open up from 5 to 10 shots...
Re: Expected accuracy?
oneshot is right on here. Generally speaking, taking all the variables out of the equation, most 16" standard carbines are capable of around 1.5-2MOA.
Now...that said...depending on the quality of the barrel, how much pressure is applied to the barrel while shooting, ammo selection, the shooter...YMMV!
I have seen standard AR-15 16" barreled carbines open up quickly once they get heated up. This is particularly true when shooting a lightweight profiled carbine barrel using a sling for support since you are exerting a good deal of force on a non-free floated barrel. They can really start to string once they get hot (again...depending on the barrel, etc.).
oneshot is right on here. Generally speaking, taking all the variables out of the equation, most 16" standard carbines are capable of around 1.5-2MOA.
Now...that said...depending on the quality of the barrel, how much pressure is applied to the barrel while shooting, ammo selection, the shooter...YMMV!
I have seen standard AR-15 16" barreled carbines open up quickly once they get heated up. This is particularly true when shooting a lightweight profiled carbine barrel using a sling for support since you are exerting a good deal of force on a non-free floated barrel. They can really start to string once they get hot (again...depending on the barrel, etc.).
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also not sure why your groups would open up from 5 to 10 shots... </div></div>
For the same reason they open up from 3 to 5 shots.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also not sure why your groups would open up from 5 to 10 shots... </div></div>
For the same reason they open up from 3 to 5 shots.
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
The groups should stay the same. The only reason your groups would open up after 5 shots is lack of focus.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
The groups should stay the same. The only reason your groups would open up after 5 shots is lack of focus.
Re: Expected accuracy?
I concur with some the previous posters. I have 2 RRA's M4 and they are about 1.5 to 2 MOA (depending on ammo). And yes, as the barrel heats even if I do my part perfectly, rounds often will often string, and I've got a stack of targets that show this. These barrels are mass production, not match quality, and apparently have unrelieved stresses that come out with heat and points of impact change. If you buy one of those same mass produced AR's with an HBAR, this is less likely to occur. I think this is multifactorial, with one important factor is takes longer for barrel to heat up due to thicker steel and it's more rigid. My DMPS AR 20" HBAR will not string on 10 shot groups, but both my RRA's M4's show that tendency.
I concur with some the previous posters. I have 2 RRA's M4 and they are about 1.5 to 2 MOA (depending on ammo). And yes, as the barrel heats even if I do my part perfectly, rounds often will often string, and I've got a stack of targets that show this. These barrels are mass production, not match quality, and apparently have unrelieved stresses that come out with heat and points of impact change. If you buy one of those same mass produced AR's with an HBAR, this is less likely to occur. I think this is multifactorial, with one important factor is takes longer for barrel to heat up due to thicker steel and it's more rigid. My DMPS AR 20" HBAR will not string on 10 shot groups, but both my RRA's M4's show that tendency.
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
The groups should stay the same. The only reason your groups would open up after 5 shots is lack of focus. </div></div>
Is there the possibility of the barrel heating up and the groups consequently opening up as well? I experience this in most of my sporter weight rifles, and not sure if the AR carbines would suffer a similar fate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
The groups should stay the same. The only reason your groups would open up after 5 shots is lack of focus. </div></div>
Is there the possibility of the barrel heating up and the groups consequently opening up as well? I experience this in most of my sporter weight rifles, and not sure if the AR carbines would suffer a similar fate.
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TargetTerror</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
The groups should stay the same. The only reason your groups would open up after 5 shots is lack of focus. </div></div>
Is there the possibility of the barrel heating up and the groups consequently opening up as well? I experience this in most of my sporter weight rifles, and not sure if the AR carbines would suffer a similar fate. </div></div>
Possible...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TargetTerror</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect about 2 moa for a 5-shot group, probably 3 moa for a 10-shot group. </div></div>
The groups should stay the same. The only reason your groups would open up after 5 shots is lack of focus. </div></div>
Is there the possibility of the barrel heating up and the groups consequently opening up as well? I experience this in most of my sporter weight rifles, and not sure if the AR carbines would suffer a similar fate. </div></div>
Possible...
Re: Expected accuracy?
my remignton r-15 shoots sub MOA with hornady 55gr sp all day. i have a RRA NM trigger in it.... i have even reloaded and shot .5 + - at 100 yards with it a few times.....
but 1.5-2 " is going to be an average for most setups...
my remignton r-15 shoots sub MOA with hornady 55gr sp all day. i have a RRA NM trigger in it.... i have even reloaded and shot .5 + - at 100 yards with it a few times.....
but 1.5-2 " is going to be an average for most setups...
Re: Expected accuracy?
Of course barrel heating can affect accuracy. I just haven't experienced it when only shooting 10 round groups compared to 5 round groups.
Now... Dump 30 rounds in a relatively rapid rate of fire and the group WILL open up. Partly because of heating, but mostly because of the mirage off the hot barrel and lack of focus.
Of course barrel heating can affect accuracy. I just haven't experienced it when only shooting 10 round groups compared to 5 round groups.
Now... Dump 30 rounds in a relatively rapid rate of fire and the group WILL open up. Partly because of heating, but mostly because of the mirage off the hot barrel and lack of focus.
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course barrel heating can affect accuracy. I just haven't experienced it when only shooting 10 round groups compared to 5 round groups.
Now... Dump 30 rounds in a relatively rapid rate of fire and the group WILL open up. Partly because of heating, but mostly because of the mirage off the hot barrel and lack of focus. </div></div>
Yeah I haven't had that problem either, my groups at 5 rounds are the same size as my 10 round groups. They don't open up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course barrel heating can affect accuracy. I just haven't experienced it when only shooting 10 round groups compared to 5 round groups.
Now... Dump 30 rounds in a relatively rapid rate of fire and the group WILL open up. Partly because of heating, but mostly because of the mirage off the hot barrel and lack of focus. </div></div>
Yeah I haven't had that problem either, my groups at 5 rounds are the same size as my 10 round groups. They don't open up.
Re: Expected accuracy?
For those whose groups never open up, I suggest:
- a basic course on statistics
- reading e.g. following thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1
- and for the last, documenting each and every shot at the range
For those whose groups never open up, I suggest:
- a basic course on statistics
- reading e.g. following thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1
- and for the last, documenting each and every shot at the range
Re: Expected accuracy?
Example of an 7 shot bench rest slow fire stringing with one of my RRA M4's. Both exhibit this same phenomena. OP, these are cheap chrome moly, mass produced barrels. Yes, there truly are mechnical non-human factors that contribute to poor accuracy, and a cheap barrel is one of them.
Example of an 7 shot bench rest slow fire stringing with one of my RRA M4's. Both exhibit this same phenomena. OP, these are cheap chrome moly, mass produced barrels. Yes, there truly are mechnical non-human factors that contribute to poor accuracy, and a cheap barrel is one of them.
Re: Expected accuracy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jthyttin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those whose groups never open up, I suggest:
- a basic course on statistics
- reading e.g. following thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1
- and for the last, documenting each and every shot at the range </div></div>
When documenting shots I use all of them, incl the ugly ones. My 10 shot groups don't open up noticeably. Note, I don't pretend to be shooting tight groups. I'm an average shooter, shooting average groups.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jthyttin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those whose groups never open up, I suggest:
- a basic course on statistics
- reading e.g. following thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218&page=1
- and for the last, documenting each and every shot at the range </div></div>
When documenting shots I use all of them, incl the ugly ones. My 10 shot groups don't open up noticeably. Note, I don't pretend to be shooting tight groups. I'm an average shooter, shooting average groups.
Re: Expected accuracy?
I usually get about 2-3 moa at 100 with batch reloads and an ACOG 4X scope. Thats on a stock stock RRA. I have a Noveske that does a smidge better.
I just ordered a LWRC M6A3 and I am hopeful that it will shoot 1 MOA. But still I will put a low power scope on it, a ACOG 4X. But for me, if I can hit a tennis ball at 100 yards that is a good battle rifle.
I usually get about 2-3 moa at 100 with batch reloads and an ACOG 4X scope. Thats on a stock stock RRA. I have a Noveske that does a smidge better.
I just ordered a LWRC M6A3 and I am hopeful that it will shoot 1 MOA. But still I will put a low power scope on it, a ACOG 4X. But for me, if I can hit a tennis ball at 100 yards that is a good battle rifle.
Re: Expected accuracy?
I just built and finished my US ARMY SDM-R clone. Will be posting on a new thread soon with a range report.
I just built and finished my US ARMY SDM-R clone. Will be posting on a new thread soon with a range report.
Re: Expected accuracy?
My HBARs that are free floated shoot very well. Stag carbine makes similar groups to the one posted up by medcpt.
My HBARs that are free floated shoot very well. Stag carbine makes similar groups to the one posted up by medcpt.
Re: Expected accuracy?
My HBAR does not string in 5 or 10 shot groups either. I used to wonder why the big 3 AR companies use such a heavy profile barrel for an AR. I figured it out later. Increasing the mass area required for the barrel to heat up and it's rigidity by being thicker, helps the accuracy of this large production barrels. That's fine, unless you have to carry it all day with the rest of your gear. You've got to have a higher quality barrel and production processes when going to thinner profiles, to maintain that same level of accuracy.
One of the reasons I think the Mk 12 SPR's were accurate as they were was that short thick stubby 18" barrel, not a lot of flex and sub-moa with match ammo.
My HBAR does not string in 5 or 10 shot groups either. I used to wonder why the big 3 AR companies use such a heavy profile barrel for an AR. I figured it out later. Increasing the mass area required for the barrel to heat up and it's rigidity by being thicker, helps the accuracy of this large production barrels. That's fine, unless you have to carry it all day with the rest of your gear. You've got to have a higher quality barrel and production processes when going to thinner profiles, to maintain that same level of accuracy.
One of the reasons I think the Mk 12 SPR's were accurate as they were was that short thick stubby 18" barrel, not a lot of flex and sub-moa with match ammo.
